Do you believe in God and why

[thaibeachlovers]

7 minutes ago, Sunmaster said:

I just make a logical deduction: if God is the ultimate converging point of all there is, this highest Truth, the Alpha and the Omega, the Creator of men, the universe and everything in between....how then can there be something that is not God?

Like MauGR1 says, there's black, there's white and then there's what you find when you transcend the two.
 

Human's greatest mistake has always been that they think they know the answers to life the universe and everything based on the information they have at hand. Every time they do so they are proven wrong.

Nothing has changed from the dark ages as some tell us science knows everything, when clearly it does not.

In a millenium, if humans still exist, they will consider today's science to be as primitive as that in the dark ages.

[AsianAtHeart]

3 hours ago, canuckamuck said:

My recent thinking has been influenced by a video call The Satan and Demons.

It is short and quite enjoyable it says thing better than me.

The following is a little long, but it represents my view perfectly regarding Satan and the origin of evil.  It is the text of the chapter "The Origin of Evil" from a book called "The Great Controversy."  Much of the video you shared was interesting, but in a few places I would differ from their interpretation.  (I hope this is not too long for the forum.  Is there a limit?  If this doesn't work, perhaps I could attach it as a file.)

 

* * * * * * *

 

To many minds the origin of sin and the reason for its existence are a source of great perplexity. They see the work of evil, with its terrible results of woe and desolation, and they question how all this can exist under the sovereignty of One who is infinite in wisdom, in power, and in love. Here is a mystery of which they find no explanation. And in their uncertainty and doubt they are blinded to truths plainly revealed in God's word and essential to salvation. There are those who, in their inquiries concerning the existence of sin, endeavor to search into that which God has never revealed; hence they find no solution of their difficulties; and such as are actuated by a disposition to doubt and cavil seize upon this as an excuse for rejecting the words of Holy Writ. Others, however, fail of a satisfactory understanding of the great problem of evil, from the fact that tradition and misinterpretation have obscured the teaching of the Bible concerning the character of God, the nature of His government, and the principles of His dealing with sin.  

 
     It is impossible to explain the origin of sin so as to give a reason for its existence. Yet enough may be understood concerning both the origin and the final disposition of sin to make fully manifest the justice and benevolence of God in all His dealings with evil. Nothing is more plainly taught in Scripture than that God was in no wise responsible for the entrance of sin; that there was no arbitrary withdrawal of divine grace, no deficiency in the divine government, that gave occasion for the uprising of rebellion. Sin is an intruder, for whose presence no reason can be given. It is mysterious, unaccountable; to excuse it is to defend it. Could excuse for it be found, or cause be shown for its existence, it would cease to be sin. Our only definition of sin is that given in the word of God; it is "the transgression of the law;" it is the outworking of a principle at war with the great law of love which is the foundation of the divine government.  

 
     Before the entrance of evil there was peace and joy throughout the universe. All was in perfect harmony with the Creator's will. Love for God was supreme, love for one another impartial. Christ the Word, the Only Begotten of God, was one with the eternal Father,--one in nature, in character, and in purpose,--the only being in all the universe that could enter into all the counsels and purposes of God. By Christ the Father wrought in the creation of all heavenly beings. "By Him were all things created, that are in heaven, . . . whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers" (Colossians 1:16); and to Christ, equally with the Father, all heaven gave allegiance.  

 
     The law of love being the foundation of the government of God, the happiness of all created beings depended upon their perfect accord with its great principles of righteousness. God desires from all His creatures the service of love--homage that springs from an intelligent appreciation of His character. He takes no pleasure in a forced allegiance, and to all He grants freedom of will, that they may render Him voluntary service.  

 
     But there was one that chose to pervert this freedom. Sin originated with him who, next to Christ, had been most honored of God and who stood highest in power and glory among the inhabitants of heaven. Before his fall, Lucifer was first of the covering cherubs, holy and undefiled. "Thus saith the Lord God; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty. Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering. . . . Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee." Ezekiel 28:12-15.  

 
     Lucifer might have remained in favor with God, beloved and honored by all the angelic host, exercising his noble powers to bless others and to glorify his Maker. But, says the prophet, "Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness." Verse 17. Little by little, Lucifer came to indulge a desire for self-exaltation. "Thou hast set thine heart as the heart of God." "Thou hast said, . . . I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation....I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the Most High." Verse 6; Isaiah 14:13, 14. Instead of seeking to make God supreme in the affections and allegiance of His creatures, it was Lucifer's endeavor to win their service and homage to himself. And coveting the honor which the infinite Father had bestowed upon His Son, this prince of angels aspired to power which it was the prerogative of Christ alone to wield.  

 
     All heaven had rejoiced to reflect the Creator's glory and to show forth His praise. And while God was thus honored, all had been peace and gladness. But a note of discord now marred the celestial harmonies. The service and exaltation of self, contrary to the Creator's plan, awakened forebodings of evil in minds to whom God's glory was supreme. The heavenly councils pleaded with Lucifer. The Son of God presented before him the greatness, the goodness, and the justice of the Creator, and the sacred, unchanging nature of His law. God Himself had established the order of heaven; and in departing from it, Lucifer would dishonor his Maker, and bring ruin upon himself. But the warning, given in infinite love and mercy, only aroused a spirit of resistance. Lucifer allowed jealousy of Christ to prevail, and he became the more determined.  

 
     Pride in his own glory nourished the desire for supremacy. The high honors conferred upon Lucifer were not appreciated as the gift of God and called forth no gratitude to the Creator. He gloried in his brightness and exaltation, and aspired to be equal with God. He was beloved and reverenced by the heavenly host. Angels delighted to execute his commands, and he was clothed with wisdom and glory above them all. Yet the Son of God was the acknowledged Sovereign of heaven, one in power and authority with the Father. In all the councils of God, Christ was a participant, while Lucifer was not permitted thus to enter into the divine purposes. "Why," questioned this mighty angel, "should Christ have the supremacy? Why is He thus honored above Lucifer?"  

 
     Leaving his place in the immediate presence of God, Lucifer went forth to diffuse the spirit of discontent among the angels. Working with mysterious secrecy, and for a time concealing his real purpose under an appearance of reverence for God, he endeavored to excite dissatisfaction concerning the laws that governed heavenly beings, intimating that they imposed an unnecessary restraint. Since their natures were holy, he urged that the angels should obey the dictates of their own will. He sought to create sympathy for himself by representing that God had dealt unjustly with him in bestowing supreme honor upon Christ. He claimed that in aspiring to greater power and honor he was not aiming at self-exaltation, but was seeking to secure liberty for all the inhabitants of heaven, that by this means they might attain to a higher state of existence.  

 
     God in His great mercy bore long with Lucifer. He was not immediately degraded from his exalted station when he first indulged the spirit of discontent, nor even when he began to present his false claims before the loyal angels. Long was he retained in heaven. Again and again he was offered pardon on condition of repentance and submission. Such efforts as only infinite love and wisdom could devise were made to convince him of his error. The spirit of discontent had never before been known in heaven. Lucifer himself did not at first see whither he was drifting; he did not understand the real nature of his feelings. But as his dissatisfaction was proved to be without cause, Lucifer was convinced that he was in the wrong, that the divine claims were just, and that he ought to acknowledge them as such before all heaven. Had he done this, he might have saved himself and many angels. He had not at this time fully cast off his allegiance to God. Though he had forsaken his position as covering cherub, yet if he had been willing to return to God, acknowledging the Creator's wisdom, and satisfied to fill the place appointed him in God's great plan, he would have been reinstated in his office. But pride forbade him to submit. He persistently defended his own course, maintained that he had no need of repentance, and fully committed himself, in the great controversy, against his Maker.  

 
     All the powers of his master mind were now bent to the work of deception, to secure the sympathy of the angels that had been under his command. Even the fact that Christ had warned and counseled him was perverted to serve his traitorous designs. To those whose loving trust bound them most closely to him, Satan had represented that he was wrongly judged, that his position was not respected, and that his liberty was to be abridged. From misrepresentation of the words of Christ he passed to prevarication and direct falsehood, accusing the Son of God of a design to humiliate him before the inhabitants of heaven. He sought also to make a false issue between himself and the loyal angels. All whom he could not subvert and bring fully to his side he accused of indifference to the interests of heavenly beings. The very work which he himself was doing he charged upon those who remained true to God. And to sustain his charge of God's injustice toward him, he resorted to misrepresentation of the words and acts of the Creator. It was his policy to perplex the angels with subtle arguments concerning the purposes of God. Everything that was simple he shrouded in mystery, and by artful perversion cast doubt upon the plainest statements of Jehovah. His high position, in such close connection with the divine administration, gave greater force to his representations, and many were induced to unite with him in rebellion against Heaven's authority.  

 
     God in His wisdom permitted Satan to carry forward his work, until the spirit of disaffection ripened into active revolt. It was necessary for his plans to be fully developed, that their true nature and tendency might be seen by all. Lucifer, as the anointed cherub, had been highly exalted; he was greatly loved by the heavenly beings, and his influence over them was strong. God's government included not only the inhabitants of heaven, but of all the worlds that He had created; and Satan thought that if he could carry the angels of heaven with him in rebellion, he could carry also the other worlds. He had artfully presented his side of the question, employing sophistry and fraud to secure his objects. His power to deceive was very great, and by disguising himself in a cloak of falsehood he had gained an advantage. Even the loyal angels could not fully discern his character or see to what his work was leading.  

 
     Satan had been so highly honored, and all his acts were so clothed with mystery, that it was difficult to disclose to the angels the true nature of his work. Until fully developed, sin would not appear the evil thing it was. Heretofore it had had no place in the universe of God, and holy beings had no conception of its nature and malignity. They could not discern the terrible consequences that would result from setting aside the divine law. Satan had, at first, concealed his work under a specious profession of loyalty to God. He claimed to be seeking to promote the honor of God, the stability of His government, and the good of all the inhabitants of heaven. While instilling discontent into the minds of the angels under him, he had artfully made it appear that he was seeking to remove dissatisfaction. When he urged that changes be made in the order and laws of God's government, it was under the pretense that these were necessary in order to preserve harmony in heaven.  

 
     In His dealing with sin, God could employ only righteousness and truth. Satan could use what God could not-- flattery and deceit. He had sought to falsify the word of God and had misrepresented His plan of government before the angels, claiming that God was not just in laying laws and rules upon the inhabitants of heaven; that in requiring submission and obedience from His creatures, He was seeking merely the exaltation of Himself. Therefore it must be demonstrated before the inhabitants of heaven, as well as of all the worlds, that God's government was just, His law  perfect. Satan had made it appear that he himself was seeking to promote the good of the universe. The true character of the usurper, and his real object, must be understood by all. He must have time to manifest himself by his wicked works.  

 
     The discord which his own course had caused in heaven, Satan charged upon the law and government of God. All evil he declared to be the result of the divine administration. He claimed that it was his own object to improve upon the statutes of Jehovah. Therefore it was necessary that he should demonstrate the nature of his claims, and show the working out of his proposed changes in the divine law. His own work must condemn him. Satan had claimed from the first that he was not in rebellion. The whole universe must see the deceiver unmasked.  

 
     Even when it was decided that he could no longer remain in heaven, Infinite Wisdom did not destroy Satan. Since the service of love can alone be acceptable to God, the allegiance of His creatures must rest upon a conviction of His justice and benevolence. The inhabitants of heaven and of other worlds, being unprepared to comprehend the nature or consequences of sin, could not then have seen the justice and mercy of God in the destruction of Satan. Had he been immediately blotted from existence, they would have served God from fear rather than from love. The influence of the deceiver would not have been fully destroyed, nor would the spirit of rebellion have been utterly eradicated. Evil must be permitted to come to maturity. For the good of the entire universe through ceaseless ages Satan must more fully develop his principles, that his charges against the divine government might be seen in their true light by all created beings, that the justice and mercy of God and the immutability of His law might forever be placed beyond all question.  

 
     Satan's rebellion was to be a lesson to the universe through all coming ages, a perpetual testimony to the nature and terrible results of sin. The working out of Satan's rule, its effects upon both men and angels, would show what must be the fruit of setting aside the divine authority. It would testify that with the existence of God's government and His law is bound up the well-being of all the creatures He has made. Thus the history of this terrible experiment of rebellion was to be a perpetual safeguard to all holy intelligences, to prevent them from being deceived as to the nature of transgression, to save them from committing sin and suffering its punishments.  

 
     To the very close of the controversy in heaven the great usurper continued to justify himself. When it was announced that with all his sympathizers he must be expelled from the abodes of bliss, then the rebel leader boldly avowed his contempt for the Creator's law. He reiterated his claim that angels needed no control, but should be left to follow their own will, which would ever guide them right. He denounced the divine statutes as a restriction of their liberty and declared that it was his purpose to secure the abolition of law; that, freed from this restraint, the hosts of heaven might enter upon a more exalted, more glorious state of existence.  

 
     With one accord, Satan and his host threw the blame of their rebellion wholly upon Christ, declaring that if they had not been reproved, they would never have rebelled. Thus stubborn and defiant in their disloyalty, seeking vainly to overthrow the government of God, yet blasphemously claiming to be themselves the innocent victims of oppressive power, the archrebel and all his sympathizers were at last banished from heaven.  

 
     The same spirit that prompted rebellion in heaven still inspires rebellion on earth. Satan has continued with men the same policy which he pursued with the angels. His spirit now reigns in the children of disobedience. Like him they seek to break down the restraints of the law of God and promise men liberty through transgression of its precepts. Reproof of sin still arouses the spirit of hatred and resistance. When God's messages of warning are brought home to the conscience, Satan leads men to justify themselves and to seek the sympathy of others in their course of sin. Instead of correcting their errors, they excite indignation against the reprover, as if he were the sole cause of difficulty. From the days of righteous Abel to our own time such is the spirit which has been displayed toward those who dare to condemn sin.  

 
     By the same misrepresentation of the character of God as he had practiced in heaven, causing Him to be regarded as severe and tyrannical, Satan induced man to sin. And having succeeded thus far, he declared that God's unjust restrictions had led to man's fall, as they had led to his own rebellion.  

 
     But the Eternal One Himself proclaims His character: "The Lord God, merciful and gracious, long-suffering, and abundant in goodness and truth, keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty." Exodus 34:6, 7.  

 
     In the banishment of Satan from heaven, God declared His justice and maintained the honor of His throne. But when man had sinned through yielding to the deceptions of this apostate spirit, God gave an evidence of His love by yielding up His only-begotten Son to die for the fallen race. In the atonement the character of God is revealed. The mighty argument of the cross demonstrates to the whole universe that the course of sin which Lucifer had chosen was in no wise chargeable upon the government of God.  

 
     In the contest between Christ and Satan, during the Saviour's earthly ministry, the character of the great deceiver was unmasked. Nothing could so effectually have uprooted Satan from the affections of the heavenly angels and the whole loyal universe as did his cruel warfare upon the world's Redeemer. The daring blasphemy of his demand that Christ should pay him homage, his presumptuous boldness in bearing Him to the mountain summit and the pinnacle of the temple, the malicious intent betrayed in urging Him to cast Himself down from the dizzy height, the unsleeping malice that hunted Him from place to place, inspiring the hearts of priests and people to reject His love, and at the last to cry, "Crucify Him! crucify Him!"--all this excited the amazement and indignation of the universe.  

 
     It was Satan that prompted the world's rejection of Christ. The prince of evil exerted all his power and cunning to destroy Jesus; for he saw that the Saviour's mercy and love, His compassion and pitying tenderness, were representing to the world the character of God. Satan contested every claim put forth by the Son of God and employed men as his agents to fill the Saviour's life with suffering and sorrow. The sophistry and falsehood by which he had sought to hinder the work of Jesus, the hatred manifested through the children of disobedience, his cruel accusations against Him whose life was one of unexampled goodness, all sprang from deep-seated revenge. The pent-up fires of envy and malice, hatred and revenge, burst forth on Calvary against the Son of God, while all heaven gazed upon the scene in silent horror.  

 
     When the great sacrifice had been consummated, Christ ascended on high, refusing the adoration of angels until He had presented the request: "I will that they also, whom Thou hast given Me, be with Me where I am." John 17:24. Then with inexpressible love and power came forth the answer from the Father's throne: "Let all the angels of God worship Him." Hebrews 1:6. Not a stain rested upon Jesus. His humiliation ended, His sacrifice completed, there was given unto Him a name that is above every name.  

 
     Now the guilt of Satan stood forth without excuse. He had revealed his true character as a liar and a murderer. It was seen that the very same spirit with which he ruled the children of men, who were under his power, he would have manifested had he been permitted to control the inhabitants of heaven. He had claimed that the transgression of God's law would bring liberty and exaltation; but it was seen to result in bondage and degradation.  

 
     Satan's lying charges against the divine character and government appeared in their true light. He had accused God of seeking merely the exaltation of Himself in requiring submission and obedience from His creatures, and had declared that, while the Creator exacted self-denial from all others, He Himself practiced no self-denial and made no sacrifice. Now it was seen that for the salvation of a fallen and sinful race, the Ruler of the universe had made the greatest sacrifice which love could make; for "God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto Himself." 2 Corinthians 5:19. It was seen, also, that while Lucifer had opened the door for the entrance of sin by his desire for honor and supremacy, Christ had, in order to destroy sin, humbled Himself and become obedient unto death.  

 
     God had manifested His abhorrence of the principles of rebellion. All heaven saw His justice revealed, both in the condemnation of Satan and in the redemption of man. Lucifer had declared that if the law of God was changeless, and its penalty could not be remitted, every transgressor must be forever debarred from the Creator's favor. He had claimed that the sinful race were placed beyond redemption and were therefore his rightful prey. But the death of Christ was an argument in man's behalf that could not be overthrown. The penalty of the law fell upon Him who was equal with God, and man was free to accept the righteousness of Christ and by a life of penitence and humiliation to triumph, as the Son of God had triumphed, over the power of Satan. Thus God is just and yet the justifier of all who believe in Jesus.  

 
     But it was not merely to accomplish the redemption of man that Christ came to the earth to suffer and to die. He came to "magnify the law" and to "make it honorable." Not alone that the inhabitants of this world might regard the law as it should be regarded; but it was to demonstrate to all the worlds of the universe that God's law is unchangeable. Could its claims have been set aside, then the Son of God need not have yielded up His life to atone for its transgression. The death of Christ proves it immutable. And the sacrifice to which infinite love impelled the Father and the Son, that sinners might be redeemed, demonstrates to all the universe--what nothing less than this plan of atonement could have sufficed to do--that justice and mercy are the foundation of the law and government of God.  

 
     In the final execution of the judgment it will be seen that no cause for sin exists. When the Judge of all the earth shall demand of Satan, "Why hast thou rebelled against Me, and robbed Me of the subjects of My kingdom?" the originator of evil can render no excuse. Every mouth will be stopped, and all the hosts of rebellion will be speechless.  

 
     The cross of Calvary, while it declares the law immutable, proclaims to the universe that the wages of sin is death. In the Saviour's expiring cry, "It is finished," the death knell of Satan was rung. The great controversy which had been so long in progress was then decided, and the final eradication of evil was made certain. The Son of God passed through the portals of the tomb, that "through death He might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil." Hebrews 2:14. Lucifer's desire for self-exaltation had led him to say: "I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: . . . I will be like the Most High." God declares: "I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth, . . . and never shalt thou be any more." Isaiah 14:13, 14; Ezekiel 28:18, 19. When "the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven;. . . .all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch." Malachi 4:1.  

 
     The whole universe will have become witnesses to the nature and results of sin. And its utter extermination, which in the beginning would have brought fear to angels and dishonor to God, will now vindicate His love and establish His honor before the universe of beings who delight to do His will, and in whose heart is His law. Never will evil again be manifest. Says the word of God: "Affliction shall not rise up the second time." Nahum 1:9. The law of God, which Satan has reproached as the yoke of bondage, will be honored as the law of liberty. A tested and proved creation will never again be turned from allegiance to Him whose character has been fully manifested before them as fathomless love and infinite wisdom. 

[thaibeachlovers]

1 hour ago, phuketsub said:

I find it strange that two of my three siblings back home remain really devout

I would equate that to two men looking at a women. One finds her the most beautiful woman ever born and the other finds her unattractive, though the same woman. That, IMO, is because we were designed to be different from each other. Obviously 2 of your siblings see religion differently from the third.

 

No prizes for guessing what I believe created us to be different. We could have been hive animals like bees or ants, but what would be the point of that? IMO being different is the point of creating humans.

Edited January 1, 2020 by thaibeachlovers

[thaibeachlovers]

7 minutes ago, AsianAtHeart said:

The whole universe will have become witnesses to the nature and results of sin. And its utter extermination, which in the beginning would have brought fear to angels and dishonor to God, will now vindicate His love and establish His honor before the universe of beings who delight to do His will, and in whose heart is His law. Never will evil again be manifest. Says the word of God: "Affliction shall not rise up the second time." Nahum 1:9. The law of God, which Satan has reproached as the yoke of bondage, will be honored as the law of liberty. A tested and proved creation will never again be turned from allegiance to Him whose character has been fully manifested before them as fathomless love and infinite wisdom. 

I'm sorry, but it is far to long to read. I only quoted the last paragraph to show which post I'm referring to.

[thaibeachlovers]

1 hour ago, Sunmaster said:

Sorry, I can't conceive of anything that is outside of God.

Even the darkest corner of the universe or of our own self, are still part of All-There-Is, its light and its love.

Maybe that's where the redemption lies that the bible talks about.  

Even though you are always in the light, you can choose to dim it and live in darkness, like choosing to put layers of clouds over the eternally shining sun.

Exactly. We were given free choice to live in the light, or in darkness, but as God created everything, both sides are within us.

 

[CharlieH]

Trolling/Mocking posts removed.

 

9) You will not post inflammatory messages on the forum, or attempt to disrupt discussions to upset its participants, or trolling. Trolling can be defined as the act of purposefully antagonizing other people on the internet by posting controversial, inflammatory, irrelevant or off-topic messages with the primary intent of provoking other users into an emotional response or to generally disrupt normal on-topic discussion.

 

[thaibeachlovers]

2 hours ago, mauGR1 said:

 

Those are the Baalbek ruins, i would really like to visit there someday.

The smaller stones are the remains of the Roman temple, dated about 2000 years, the bigger stones are the remains of something completely different, much older, and possibly built before the big flood.

Those ancient humans must have known some strange trick, or somebody was helping them.

Give a modern man the equivalent of tools that their technology had and ask them to cut stones with such perfect joins. The modern guy couldn't do it.

[thaibeachlovers]

3 hours ago, mauGR1 said:

I'm convinced that countless "entities" exist in different worlds, we can experiment just a few of them.

I really hope you meant to say "experience", and not experiment.

[sirineou]

1 minute ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Give a modern man the equivalent of tools that their technology had and ask them to cut stones with such perfect joins. The modern guy couldn't do it.

 

Go in your back yard and start a fire without a lighter, yet ancient men used to do it all the time , you dont suppose they had aliens helping them ? 

Anyway Modern and not so modern guys do great stone work all the time,

No aliens were harmed in the construction of that building. 

 

[Sunmaster]

15 minutes ago, AsianAtHeart said:

     The whole universe will have become witnesses to the nature and results of sin. And its utter extermination, which in the beginning would have brought fear to angels and dishonor to God, will now vindicate His love and establish His honor before the universe of beings who delight to do His will, and in whose heart is His law. Never will evil again be manifest. Says the word of God: "Affliction shall not rise up the second time." Nahum 1:9. The law of God, which Satan has reproached as the yoke of bondage, will be honored as the law of liberty. A tested and proved creation will never again be turned from allegiance to Him whose character has been fully manifested before them as fathomless love and infinite wisdom. 

God is my witness...I tried to read it, but Satan distracted me and made me a sinner.

Jokes aside...I find it tiring to keep a discussion going when I have to respond to quoted book passages, videos of comedians and copy/pastings other people's opinions. 
God will talk to us in the language we best understand. When God speaks to a Hindu, it might be in the form of one of their deities using concepts close to his culture. In my case it was impersonal, no God form, no words...just pure love and information. In your case it was the language of Christianity and that's how you make sense of it and translate the messages. 
Absolutely no problems with that,  but "evil' and 'sin' have different meanings for me.

[Tagged]

1 minute ago, sirineou said:

 

Go in your back yard and start a fire without a lighter, yet ancient men used to do it all the time , you dont suppose they had aliens helping them ? 

Anyway Modern and not so modern guys do great stone work all the time,

No aliens were harmed in the construction of that building. 

 

And they had the time. 20 years to build the great pyramid of Giza! 100 000 workers to 330 stones had to be moved and be layed every day. Quite impressive if you ask me. So who built the pyramids? Thats the question to ask ???? 

[canuckamuck]

38 minutes ago, Skeptic7 said:

And your "God" either doesn't give a ???? or is incapable of intervening, same as any other imaginary being. 

Or you misunderstand about the nature of the corrupted earth and the role of man.

[thaibeachlovers]

10 minutes ago, sirineou said:

 

Go in your back yard and start a fire without a lighter, yet ancient men used to do it all the time , you dont suppose they had aliens helping them ? 

Anyway Modern and not so modern guys do great stone work all the time,

No aliens were harmed in the construction of that building. 

 

I was a boy scout. Lighting a fire without matches or a lighter is easy, but hard work.

[thaibeachlovers]

6 minutes ago, Tagged said:

And they had the time. 20 years to build the great pyramid of Giza! 100 000 workers to 330 stones had to be moved and be layed every day. Quite impressive if you ask me. So who built the pyramids? Thats the question to ask ???? 

I've stood on the Great Pyramid. The stones are not that big or well formed and could easily have been cut and erected by humans. The chamber inside the pyramid is the puzzle.

[mauGR1]

20 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

I really hope you meant to say "experience", and not experiment.

Well, i used "experiment" as a synonym of "experience", i wonder how it may sound to you.

[tropo]

Are you just meat, or something more than meat?

 

By answering this question, the answer to the OP's question become a little bit easier.

 

I tend to go with the latter - we are more than meat and did not evolve from inorganic matter.

 

 

 

 

 

[Elad]

10 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

I myself went into the Great Pyramid and felt the walls of the chamber. A million slaves could rub the walls with sand for a thousand years and not get such a perfectly smooth finish. If someone can discover a machine that made perfectly smooth stone walls I'll agree it was humans.

And then the highly advanced aliens built the outer skin of the pyramid with limestone, that started to erode and broke apart by the first earthquake.

[oldhippy]

5 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Give a modern man the equivalent of tools that their technology had and ask them to cut stones with such perfect joins. The modern guy couldn't do it.

So we can probably add "Belief in Erich Von Daniken" to your other fancy beliefs?

https://www.facebook.com/erichvondanikenfans/

http://skepdic.com/vondanik.html

Please note my broadmindedness when talking about this fantast.

 

[VincentRJ]

5 hours ago, AsianAtHeart said:

 

To many minds the origin of sin and the reason for its existence are a source of great perplexity. They see the work of evil, with its terrible results of woe and desolation, and they question how all this can exist under the sovereignty of One who is infinite in wisdom, in power, and in love. Here is a mystery of which they find no explanation. And in their uncertainty and doubt they are blinded to truths plainly revealed in God's word and essential to salvation. There are those who, in their inquiries concerning the existence of sin, endeavor to search into that which God has never revealed; hence they find no solution of their difficulties; and such as are actuated by a disposition to doubt and cavil seize upon this as an excuse for rejecting the words of Holy Writ. Others, however, fail of a satisfactory understanding of the great problem of evil, from the fact that tradition and misinterpretation have obscured the teaching of the Bible concerning the character of God, the nature of His government, and the principles of His dealing with sin.  

 
     It is impossible to explain the origin of sin so as to give a reason for its existence. Yet enough may be understood concerning both the origin and the final disposition of sin to make fully manifest the justice and benevolence of God in all His dealings with evil. Nothing is more plainly taught in Scripture than that God was in no wise responsible for the entrance of sin; that there was no arbitrary withdrawal of divine grace, no deficiency in the divine government, that gave occasion for the uprising of rebellion. Sin is an intruder, for whose presence no reason can be given. It is mysterious, unaccountable; to excuse it is to defend it. Could excuse for it be found, or cause be shown for its existence, it would cease to be sin. Our only definition of sin is that given in the word of God; it is "the transgression of the law;" it is the outworking of a principle at war with the great law of love which is the foundation of the divine government.   
    
    

I've been away during the Christmas period for a couple of weeks without access to the internet. I'm amazed to see, on my return, another 40 or more pages on this topic, which I've taken the trouble to read because the subject is so fascinating.

 

Many of the posts are quite sensible, but some are a bit strange or puzzling. AsianAtHeart claims to be a Biologist, but also appears to be a devout Judeo-Christian. I find his reasoning to be inconsistent with  scientific values.

 

Let's consider the human concept of sin within the natural environment. All living creatures feed upon other living creatures. Is that sinful? 
When a cow or kangaroo eats grass, is that sinful?
When a female spider eats the male spider after copulation, is that sinful?
When a tiger slowly kills a buffalo and tears it to shreds in order to eat it, is that sinful?
When a bacteria or virus enters a human and causes death, is that sinful?
When a male Koala Bear kills another male Koala during a fight, in order to copulate with the female Koala, is that sinful?

 

All living organisms, whether plants, bacteria, insects, mammals or homo sapiens, are instinctively motivated to survive and reproduce, which means fighting off predators, protecting their environment from other invading creatures who are also motivated by the instinct to survive and proliferate, and also expanding their environment into other creatures' territory.

 

In this respect, human behaviour is no different to the behaviour of all other creatures and living entities, except that our effects on the environment, when fighting to survive, is greater and more destructive because of our increased abilities and larger brain.

 

However, there is wisdom in some of the teachings of religions. Statements such as, 'Do unto others as you would have them do unto you', and 'Love thy neighbour as thyself, and love thy enemy', is practical advice which encourages social harmony and creates an environment for prosperity to flourish.

 

The problem is, most religions, if not all, do not seem to honour those fundamental, practical principles. The biological human instinct to fight and invade and dominate seems to be more powerful.

[oldhippy]

47 minutes ago, Elad said:

And then the highly advanced aliens built the outer skin of the pyramid with limestone, that started to erode and broke apart by the first earthquake.

And here are the absolutely undeniable facts.

https://armaghplanet.com/aliens-have-built-the-pyramids.html

[canuckamuck]

6 minutes ago, VincentRJ said:

I've been away during the Christmas period for a couple of weeks without access to the internet. I'm amazed to see, on my return, another 40 or more pages on this topic, which I've taken the trouble to read because the subject is so fascinating.

 

Many of the posts are quite sensible, but some are a bit strange or puzzling. AsianAtHeart claims to be a Biologist, but also appears to be a devout Judeo-Christian. I find his reasoning to be inconsistent with  scientific values.

 

Let's consider the human concept of sin within the natural environment. All living creatures feed upon other living creatures. Is that sinful? 
When a cow or kangaroo eats grass, is that sinful?
When a female spider eats the male spider after copulation, is that sinful?
When a tiger slowly kills a buffalo and tears it to shreds in order to eat it, is that sinful?
When a bacteria or virus enters a human and causes death, is that sinful?
When a male Koala Bear kills another male Koala during a fight, in order to copulate with the female Koala, is that sinful?

 

All living organisms, whether plants, bacteria, insects, mammals or homo sapiens, are instinctively motivated to survive and reproduce, which means fighting off predators, protecting their environment from other invading creatures who are also motivated by the instinct to survive and proliferate, and also expanding their environment into other creatures' territory.

 

In this respect, human behaviour is no different to the behaviour of all other creatures and living entities, except that our effects on the environment, when fighting to survive, is greater and more destructive because of our increased abilities and larger brain.

 

However, there is wisdom in some of the teachings of religions. Statements such as, 'Do unto others as you would have them do unto you', and 'Love thy neighbour as thyself, and love thy enemy', is practical advice which encourages social harmony and creates an environment for prosperity to flourish.

 

The problem is, most religions, if not all, do not seem to honour those fundamental, practical principles. The biological human instinct to fight and invade and dominate seems to be more powerful.

That we can build communities of enormous size and regulate them with abstract concepts like laws and rights and property. And we can agree on moral  and ethical behavior for the most part. Sets us apart form the animals and we should not compare ourselves to those that have only instinctual programming.

[sirineou]

5 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

I was a boy scout. Lighting a fire without matches or a lighter is easy, but hard work.

I am sure your fire starting abilities are superior to most of as, For most of us it involves a lot of  cursing or praying depending on where one stands on the god thing, but for both sides ends with the similar results of cold soup.

 Sorry if I offended your fire starting abilities it was not my intent. I hope you understood my point. 

[VincentRJ]

42 minutes ago, canuckamuck said:

That we can build communities of enormous size and regulate them with abstract concepts like laws and rights and property. And we can agree on moral  and ethical behavior for the most part. Sets us apart form the animals and we should not compare ourselves to those that have only instinctual programming.

Consider the ant. On average, an ant weighs less than one millionth of the average weight of a human. Consider a large ant hill, around 2 metres tall, with numerous tunnels and multitudes of 'worker ants' and 'warrior ants' continually travelling around. Multiply that by a million. You get an absolutely huge city with the tallest point being far taller than the tallest, human-built skyscraper.

 

"During the thousands of years that humans have been on Earth, we’ve gone around and colonized almost every part of the planet. What many people don’t realize is that one other creature has quietly followed along and done the same thing right under our feet. While tiny, ants have created some massive colonies. Discover more about the largest ant colonies in the world."
 

https://ants.com/5-ant-supercolonies-worlds-largest-ant-colonies/
 

[Sunmaster]

1 hour ago, VincentRJ said:

The problem is, most religions, if not all, do not seem to honour those fundamental, practical principles. The biological human instinct to fight and invade and dominate seems to be more powerful.

I have some problems with this statement.

Religions, intended as institutions of coded belief systems, all promote some sort of socio-cultural guidelines for better coexistence. Some focus more on ritual (unfortunately), while others specialize in more practical matters of the mind. In all cases, they point to something higher/bigger than us.

Every religion has different layers of truths that are stacked on each other. Which one you can access depend on your own personal level of development and understanding.

• At the most fundamental level, a person will usually take the stories literally and find comfort in the rituals, without questioning the hidden meanings.
• Higher levels will reveal higher truths. People can form abstract connections between the teachings of the religion and their own personal life.
• At the highest level, the one I value the most, are the teachings that put you in direct contact with the Divine. They are discoverable in every religion and are very similar across apparently very different religions.

That's why I think that a religion is only as good as its ability to pick up people at the fundamental level and carry them to the highest level. It should be a religion's most sacred responsibility to do so!

Wars, conflict, hatred....they come from people at the lowest level, not necessarily from the religion itself.
If a religion keeps its followers at the lowest level (more or less intentionally), then not only is it doing a terrible job, but in my opinion is committing the worst sin of them all!

Edited January 1, 2020 by Sunmaster

[canuckamuck]

19 minutes ago, VincentRJ said:

Consider the ant. On average, an ant weighs less than one millionth of the average weight of a human. Consider a large ant hill, around 2 metres tall, with numerous tunnels and multitudes of 'worker ants' and 'warrior ants' continually travelling around. Multiply that by a million. You get an absolutely huge city with the tallest point being far taller than the tallest, human-built skyscraper.

 

"During the thousands of years that humans have been on Earth, we’ve gone around and colonized almost every part of the planet. What many people don’t realize is that one other creature has quietly followed along and done the same thing right under our feet. While tiny, ants have created some massive colonies. Discover more about the largest ant colonies in the world."
 

https://ants.com/5-ant-supercolonies-worlds-largest-ant-colonies/
 

Are you envious of the ants, a purely robotic society. What do ants dream about?

[AsianAtHeart]

1 hour ago, VincentRJ said:

I've been away during the Christmas period for a couple of weeks without access to the internet. I'm amazed to see, on my return, another 40 or more pages on this topic, which I've taken the trouble to read because the subject is so fascinating.

 

Many of the posts are quite sensible, but some are a bit strange or puzzling. AsianAtHeart claims to be a Biologist, but also appears to be a devout Judeo-Christian. I find his reasoning to be inconsistent with  scientific values.

 

Let's consider the human concept of sin within the natural environment. All living creatures feed upon other living creatures. Is that sinful? 
When a cow or kangaroo eats grass, is that sinful?
When a female spider eats the male spider after copulation, is that sinful?
When a tiger slowly kills a buffalo and tears it to shreds in order to eat it, is that sinful?
When a bacteria or virus enters a human and causes death, is that sinful?
When a male Koala Bear kills another male Koala during a fight, in order to copulate with the female Koala, is that sinful?

 

All living organisms, whether plants, bacteria, insects, mammals or homo sapiens, are instinctively motivated to survive and reproduce, which means fighting off predators, protecting their environment from other invading creatures who are also motivated by the instinct to survive and proliferate, and also expanding their environment into other creatures' territory.

 

In this respect, human behaviour is no different to the behaviour of all other creatures and living entities, except that our effects on the environment, when fighting to survive, is greater and more destructive because of our increased abilities and larger brain.

 

However, there is wisdom in some of the teachings of religions. Statements such as, 'Do unto others as you would have them do unto you', and 'Love thy neighbour as thyself, and love thy enemy', is practical advice which encourages social harmony and creates an environment for prosperity to flourish.

 

The problem is, most religions, if not all, do not seem to honour those fundamental, practical principles. The biological human instinct to fight and invade and dominate seems to be more powerful.

The animal kingdom does not have the same sense of right and wrong that humans have.  Neither do plants.  You could just as easily have asked the question of whether it is sinful for a rose bush to have thorns.  What we see in nature is the result of sin, but it is not the sin itself.  I believe, as a creationist, that God has, in His infinite wisdom, chosen to use the animal kingdom and the natural world as a lesson book for sinners, to teach us more about the distinctions between right and wrong and the magnitude of sin.

Before sin, the animals did not eat each other.  Every creature was vegetarian, as were humans.  God made the plants to be the food for other living creatures, so it never would have been wrong to eat them.  

After sin, both plants and animals were changed.  God cursed the ground for our sake.  He knew that if we could live a life of ease as sinners, that we would not use our idle time well.  It would be a greater curse to us to be idle than to have to eat by the sweat of our brow, from a field now riddled with thorns and thistles.

The popular saying that "idleness is the devil's workshop," while not in the Bible, certainly agrees with the Bible's teachings.  I think most of us know that work is a blessing.  For myself, if I have passed a day in idleness, I don't feel very good about myself.  I feel much better when I know I have done something worthwhile.

 

[mauGR1]

13 minutes ago, canuckamuck said:

Are you envious of the ants, a purely robotic society. What do ants dream about?

If ants could be envious, they would probably be envious of humans.

[Tagged]

@AsianAtHeart Before sin animals was vegetarian!? No they where not Mr Biologist, you just trolling as good you can! Not a sane human will state anything alike.

[Tagged]

What plants and animals feel and think we do not know, but coming from people who believe in higher power, Im surprised they dismiss intelligense and feelings with animals and plants. 

[AsianAtHeart]

1 minute ago, Tagged said:

@AsianAtHeart Before sin animals was vegetarian!? No they where not Mr Biologist, you just trolling as good you can! Not a sane human will state anything alike.

The Bible, in the book of Isaiah, describes what it is like in God's home.

 

Quote

 11:6    The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.  
 11:7    And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.  
 11:8    And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den.  
 11:9    They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea. 

This is obviously a description of the ideal, of a place where no sin is.  Such was our earth once, before sin entered.