Sunmaster Posted January 28, 2020 Share Posted January 28, 2020 39 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said: On 1/24/2020 at 7:38 AM, sirineou said: That's why there is no such thing as the Science of God. there is only belief. Some of us have been saying that for 367 pages. On 1/24/2020 at 7:38 AM, sirineou said: There is no 'science" there is the science of a particular discipline dependant on the scientific process of verification. Given science is incapable of proving or disproving the existence of "God", I see no point in bringing science into the discussion. Humans are too primitive to even begin to understand God. I believe in the existence of God because the evidence is everywhere. However, if one has a closed mind, one will not see it. I think you're both wrong. ???? Science is the process of learning through intellectual and practical activity through observation and experiment and it is verifiable by others. Meditation does just that. That's why there are clearly defined teachings and repeatable steps for the practitioner to follow to reach a certain goal. These steps are verifiable by all who embark on that path. Thousands of years of experimenting have refined these meditation techniques to an art form. Of course, if you look at it from the outside, you'll never understand the first thing about it. You (in a general sense) will also have no authority to pass judgement because you don't have all the data necessary to form a leveled opinion. If it makes you feel better, we can define the traditional science as "narrow science" and one that includes meditation as a source of knowledge a "broad science". Remember though, that both conform to the prerequisites necessary to be defined as "science" (learning through intellectual and practical activity through observation and experiment and it is verifiable by others). Now, how many confused emoticons will this get me? ???? ???????? 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luckyluke Posted January 28, 2020 Share Posted January 28, 2020 5 minutes ago, Tagged said: have created my own view on it. That is fair. It would be biased, if you would pretend, your view is the only correct one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mauGR1 Posted January 28, 2020 Share Posted January 28, 2020 6 minutes ago, luckyluke said: That is fair. It would be biased, if you would pretend, your view is the only correct one. Serious question though, isn't it biased to think that ALL the opinions are worth the same ? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tagged Posted January 28, 2020 Share Posted January 28, 2020 (edited) 17 minutes ago, luckyluke said: That is fair. It would be biased, if you would pretend, your view is the only correct one. I see no fauls with my view, it is bombastic radical and true! All ingridents of the only true belief and faith. Simplistic and easy to understand for everyone, and come free of charge, which is the only foult with it! Maybee Worth a t-shirt at most. Edited January 28, 2020 by Tagged 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luckyluke Posted January 28, 2020 Share Posted January 28, 2020 13 minutes ago, Sunmaster said: Now, how many confused emoticons will this get me? Expressing an opinion is always something which may be confused for some. I am convinced that meditation has a great positive impact on you. It may however not be the case for everyone and not the only way. I feel something similar without meditation. Again I write similar, as one knows what one is feeling, not what another is feeling. Claiming that my feeling are superior to yours would be pretentious. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sunmaster Posted January 28, 2020 Share Posted January 28, 2020 Just now, luckyluke said: Expressing an opinion is always something which may be confused for some. I am convinced that meditation has a great positive impact on you. It may however not be the case for everyone and not the only way. I feel something similar without meditation. Again I write similar, as one knows what one is feeling, not what another is feeling. Claiming that my feeling are superior to yours would be pretentious. How long have you meditated for to know that you now have something similar to it without meditating? What is that something anyway? Just curious. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luckyluke Posted January 28, 2020 Share Posted January 28, 2020 12 minutes ago, mauGR1 said: Serious question though, isn't it biased to think that ALL the opinions are worth the same ? Depends. I am convinced that my opinion about brain tumour, for instance, would have no significance vis-à-vis a neurosurgeon. However, I consider my opinion about the yes or no "existence" of a "God/Creator" even worth as any other opinion. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mauGR1 Posted January 28, 2020 Share Posted January 28, 2020 1 minute ago, luckyluke said: Depends. I am convinced that my opinion about brain tumour, for instance, would have no significance vis-à-vis a neurosurgeon. However, I consider my opinion about the yes or no "existence" of a "God/Creator" even worth as any other opinion. That's fair enough in my opinion. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sunmaster Posted January 28, 2020 Share Posted January 28, 2020 4 minutes ago, luckyluke said: Depends. I am convinced that my opinion about brain tumour, for instance, would have no significance vis-à-vis a neurosurgeon. However, I consider my opinion about the yes or no "existence" of a "God/Creator" even worth as any other opinion. LoL So, a man can dedicate his whole life to realizing God in himself, meditating for hours on end, overcome his ego, life a life free from the lowest of human emotions and instincts......and in your eyes, his opinion about God has the same value of someone who hasn't wasted half a thought about it. Does that make sense to you? The mind boggles. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mauGR1 Posted January 28, 2020 Share Posted January 28, 2020 12 minutes ago, Sunmaster said: How long have you meditated I believe that the benefits of meditation go further than a single human life. If you have to believe the Tibetans, the Dalai Lama was an incarnation of Buddha when he was just born in this world. In other words, some people are born wise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sunmaster Posted January 28, 2020 Share Posted January 28, 2020 Just now, mauGR1 said: I believe that the benefits of meditation go further than a single human life. If you have to believe the Tibetans, the Dalai Lama was an incarnation of Buddha when he was just born in this world. In other words, some people are born wise. "Some" people...I agree. They are hard to find though. Certainly none of us here. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luckyluke Posted January 28, 2020 Share Posted January 28, 2020 6 minutes ago, Sunmaster said: How long have you meditated for to know that you now have something similar to it without meditating? What is that something anyway? Just curious. As written before I start to meditate when I was 20 ( It was the time of flower power, love, peace, Ravi Shankar...) I gave up after a few weeks, was not able to concentrate enough, and felt nothing. A lot later I felt peace of mind by doing nothing particular, except maybe some will find trying to do good and not bad intentionally something particular. I did and still do it for my well being, that others may "take advantage" of it, is nice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luckyluke Posted January 28, 2020 Share Posted January 28, 2020 11 minutes ago, Sunmaster said: Does that make sense to you? Yes, but of course you may have a different opinion. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mauGR1 Posted January 28, 2020 Share Posted January 28, 2020 4 minutes ago, luckyluke said: As written before I start to meditate when I was 20 ( It was the time of flower power, love, peace, Ravi Shankar...) I gave up after a few weeks, was not able to concentrate enough, and felt nothing. A lot later I felt peace of mind by doing nothing particular, except maybe some will find trying to do good and not bad intentionally something particular. I did and still do it for my well being, that others may "take advantage" of it, is nice. My story is very similar. I cannot force myself to sit idle and "meditate". In fact i am trying to be in a state of meditation the whole time which i have to spend inside this human body. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mauGR1 Posted January 28, 2020 Share Posted January 28, 2020 16 minutes ago, Sunmaster said: "Some" people...I agree. They are hard to find though. Certainly none of us here. C'mon, don't put yourself down Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luckyluke Posted January 28, 2020 Share Posted January 28, 2020 2 minutes ago, mauGR1 said: In fact i am trying to be in a state of meditation the whole time which i have to spend inside this human body. Well I spend a lot of time enjoying the earthy pleasures. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mauGR1 Posted January 28, 2020 Share Posted January 28, 2020 2 minutes ago, luckyluke said: Well I spend a lot of time enjoying the earthy pleasures. The opposite for me. I have been seeing the futility of earthy pleasures since i was a kid, yet i used to, and i still conform to the mainstream attitudes for the sake of social life. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sunmaster Posted January 28, 2020 Share Posted January 28, 2020 34 minutes ago, luckyluke said: As written before I start to meditate when I was 20 ( It was the time of flower power, love, peace, Ravi Shankar...) I gave up after a few weeks, was not able to concentrate enough, and felt nothing. A lot later I felt peace of mind by doing nothing particular, except maybe some will find trying to do good and not bad intentionally something particular. I did and still do it for my well being, that others may "take advantage" of it, is nice. So, one tried to "play the piano" for 2 weeks and then gave up because he couldn't string together a simple tune. Another one goes through years of music school, practices on their keyboard everyday until finally he becomes proficient and is able to play Beethoven's 9th symphony flawlessly. Yet, apparently in some very curious parallel universe, the 2 are equally equipped to talk about the art of playing the piano. It's funny that you allow for opinions to differ in fields you think you have no authority in (brain tumor, you said), but for meditation/spirituality (where by your admission you also have no authority), suddenly opinions become all equal. I mean, come on guys, even if you're skeptic of spirituality, an atheist, a hard core materialist or whatever, common logic would certainly shout at you in the face to wake t.f. up. But of course, you may have a different opinion.... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luckyluke Posted January 28, 2020 Share Posted January 28, 2020 2 minutes ago, Sunmaster said: nny that you allow for opinions to differ in fields you think you have no authority in (brain tumor, you said), but for meditation/spirituality (where by your admission you also have no authority), suddenly opinions become all equal. My opinion : I don't claim you are not a specialist in meditation, you may know very well the history, names... What I contest is that you claim that by practising meditation you have a better approach and understanding of a lot of things, if not everything. And that's your opinion, my opinion is that one can reach something similar by other ways. I explain already many times why I use the word "similar". A feeling is not measurable by others. When somebody play the piano everyone will hear if it is good or bad. Some may practising years but never reach more than the "good" level. Specialist will hear the difference between a good one, very good and exceptional, as the playing is measurable. A virtuoso is generally worldwide accepted as such. So are experts in different other measurable fields. Meditation is not one of these fields. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sunmaster Posted January 28, 2020 Share Posted January 28, 2020 (edited) 57 minutes ago, luckyluke said: My opinion : I don't claim you are not a specialist in meditation, you may know very well the history, names... What I contest is that you claim that by practising meditation you have a better approach and understanding of a lot of things, if not everything. And that's your opinion, my opinion is that one can reach something similar by other ways. I explain already many times why I use the word "similar". A feeling is not measurable by others. When somebody play the piano everyone will hear if it is good or bad. Some may practising years but never reach more than the "good" level. First of all, this has nothing to do with me. I just started practicing meditation regularly, but have had other experiences that gave me insights and I've studied the subject from many different angles. I've never claimed to be an expert, but I do think I know a thing or 2 about it. I also don't care if you think I'm a knowitall. I know what I know and I try to validate it with rational arguments. Again, I didn't post what I posted to somehow elevate myself above others, but in defense of the subject at hand, which is dear to me and I care that it is portrayed truthfully. If someone comes along who is an expert in meditation, I will gladly let him take over. 57 minutes ago, luckyluke said: Specialist will hear the difference between a good one, very good and exceptional, as the playing is measurable. A virtuoso is generally worldwide accepted as such. So are experts in different other measurable fields. Meditation is not one of these fields. This is where you got it wrong I think. A specialist in meditation (aka guru, swami, zen master, saint...) can very well be recognized as such by others (at he same or higher level). People feel that there is something special about them, and if you'd ever met such a person, you would know. Just because it's not measurable like radioactivity is, doesn't mean a damn thing. A specialist in meditation will have one look at you and know if you're good, very good or exceptional in your practice. It is NOT a matter of opinion. It's true that there are some who fake it. For us it would be quite difficult to verify if they indeed have "it" or not. For the specialist though, it will be no problem to see through the deception, just like the piano virtuoso can hear your level after 5 seconds of you playing a tune. Edited January 28, 2020 by Sunmaster 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skeptic7 Posted January 28, 2020 Share Posted January 28, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, Sunmaster said: A specialist in meditation will have one look at you and know if you're good, very good or exceptional in your practice. It is NOT a matter of opinion. Well my opinion is...you're wrong. And it definitely is a matter of untestable, very subjective opinion. 1 hour ago, luckyluke said: My opinion : I don't claim you are not a specialist in meditation, you may know very well the history, names... What I contest is that you claim that by practising meditation you have a better approach and understanding of a lot of things, if not everything. And that's your opinion, my opinion is that one can reach something similar by other ways. I explain already many times why I use the word "similar". A feeling is not measurable by others. When somebody play the piano everyone will hear if it is good or bad. Some may practising years but never reach more than the "good" level. Specialist will hear the difference between a good one, very good and exceptional, as the playing is measurable. A virtuoso is generally worldwide accepted as such. So are experts in different other measurable fields. Meditation is not one of these fields. You're correct HUGE difference and meditation is NOT one of those fields. ???? Edited January 28, 2020 by Skeptic7 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Assurancetourix Posted January 28, 2020 Share Posted January 28, 2020 You really have time to waste ..378 pages of blabla on a subject that does not exist. Hats off the artists ... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sunmaster Posted January 28, 2020 Share Posted January 28, 2020 Just now, Skeptic7 said: Well my opinion is...you're wrong. And it definitely is a matter of untestable, very subjective opinion. You're correct and meditation is NOT one of those fields. ???? Another one with years of knowledge and direct experience in his pockets. ???????????? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VocalNeal Posted January 28, 2020 Share Posted January 28, 2020 My wife said a god botherer was at the door today but was politely told no thank you. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post mauGR1 Posted January 28, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted January 28, 2020 6 minutes ago, Assurancetourix said: You really have time to waste ..378 pages of blabla on a subject that does not exist. Hats off the artists ... People were talking about this subject since aeons before you existed, and will be talking about it for aeons after you cease to exist. "time to waste" is a subjective opinion. 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Skeptic7 Posted January 28, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted January 28, 2020 11 minutes ago, Sunmaster said: Another one with years of knowledge and direct experience in his pockets. ???????????? Yes...but determining what is testable/measurable/detectable versus what is not is not difficult. Should give it a go sometime. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sunmaster Posted January 28, 2020 Share Posted January 28, 2020 Just now, Skeptic7 said: Yes...but determining what is testable/measurable/detectable versus what is not is not difficult. Should give it a go sometime. I do that every time I sit down and calm my mind. Can you say the same? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soi Pig Posted January 28, 2020 Share Posted January 28, 2020 No. Where is this "god"? Only stories, no evidence. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luckyluke Posted January 28, 2020 Share Posted January 28, 2020 3 minutes ago, Sunmaster said: I do that every time I sit down and calm my mind. Despite you can not prove this is indeed the case, I am personally prepare to believe you. I can also not prove that I have a similar peace of mind, without meditation, that you claim to have with. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sunmaster Posted January 28, 2020 Share Posted January 28, 2020 6 minutes ago, luckyluke said: Despite you can not prove this is indeed the case, I am personally prepare to believe you. I can also not prove that I have a similar peace of mind, without meditation, that you claim to have with. Please, this is not a pissing contest. The practice of meditation enables you to quiten the mind for longer and longer periods of time, until you learn to observe any arising thoughts and not get carried away by them. This is only the most basic aspect of it, but the all important foundation on which all other states of consciousness are built upon. Now, if you have the ability to witness your thoughts in this manner without meditating, then I say wow, wish I were you. If not, then what you define as peace of mind is different from what meditation is about. Still good if you have it and feel content with it, but not the same. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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