ravip Posted February 12, 2020 Share Posted February 12, 2020 On 2/8/2020 at 8:18 AM, ThaiBunny said: Indirect taxes and enterprise (business) taxes With THAT type of taxes, a nation is bound to move forward pretty fast. ???? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luckyluke Posted February 12, 2020 Share Posted February 12, 2020 5 hours ago, CMNightRider said: I personally, would not want to be a non-believer on Judgement Day. There is indeed fearless needed to be a non-believer. If he is right, and there is nothing, well nothing will happen. But if he is wrong and there is for instance your God, this may not come out very well for the non-believer. For you it is easy, if your God exist, you will be,I assume, OK, if there is nothing, well you will not know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
samuttodd Posted February 12, 2020 Share Posted February 12, 2020 Groucho Marx had a funny saying: "I'd never want to be part of any organization that would have me as a member." 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ivor bigun Posted February 12, 2020 Author Share Posted February 12, 2020 4 hours ago, UbonThani said: Jesus was gay. Maybe god is too. So where does it say he was gay? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skeptic7 Posted February 12, 2020 Share Posted February 12, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, luckyluke said: There is indeed fearless needed to be a non-believer. If he is right, and there is nothing, well nothing will happen. But if he is wrong and there is for instance your God, this may not come out very well for the non-believer. For you it is easy, if your God exist, you will be,I assume, OK, if there is nothing, well you will not know. Pascal's Wager. All been gone over ad nauseam. But since we're playing "what if" again...what if the believer has the wrong one? What if Satan is the good one and all the others are the deceivers? What if...what if...what if??? Who cares?!? ???????? Beer:30! ???? Edited February 12, 2020 by Skeptic7 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UbonThani Posted February 12, 2020 Share Posted February 12, 2020 39 minutes ago, ivor bigun said: So where does it say he was gay? He hung out with semi naked dudes all day long. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sunmaster Posted February 12, 2020 Share Posted February 12, 2020 Methinks you're all just flogging a dead horse now. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sirineou Posted February 12, 2020 Share Posted February 12, 2020 2 hours ago, luckyluke said: There is indeed fearless needed to be a non-believer. If he is right, and there is nothing, well nothing will happen. But if he is wrong and there is for instance your God, this may not come out very well for the non-believer. For you it is easy, if your God exist, you will be,I assume, OK, if there is nothing, well you will not know. There is a big risk risk taken to be a believer also. the risk of having foolishly compromised the one chance on life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canuckamuck Posted February 12, 2020 Share Posted February 12, 2020 18 minutes ago, sirineou said: There is a big risk risk taken to be a believer also. the risk of having foolishly compromised the one chance on life. How so. We are quite happy on our circuits around the sun. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sunmaster Posted February 12, 2020 Share Posted February 12, 2020 19 minutes ago, sirineou said: There is a big risk risk taken to be a believer also. the risk of having foolishly compromised the one chance on life. "Damn, just when I thought I was out, they pull me back in". ???? Please explain how my one life has been compromised. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sirineou Posted February 12, 2020 Share Posted February 12, 2020 4 minutes ago, Sunmaster said: "Damn, just when I thought I was out, they pull me back in". ???? Please explain how my one life has been compromised. I don't know you personally so i can't comment on how your life has being compromised by your personal beliefs, but I could endeavour to speculate that the guy who blew himself up shouting "god is great" had his/hers life slightly compromised. LOL That is one extreme example if you like I could come up with many other small but insidious ways. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sirineou Posted February 12, 2020 Share Posted February 12, 2020 14 minutes ago, canuckamuck said: How so. We are quite happy on our circuits around the sun. Well now, but when the sun was going around you......... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canuckamuck Posted February 12, 2020 Share Posted February 12, 2020 32 minutes ago, sirineou said: Well now, but when the sun was going around you......... If you consider earth to be a fixed point, than it still does. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sunmaster Posted February 12, 2020 Share Posted February 12, 2020 1 hour ago, sirineou said: I don't know you personally so i can't comment on how your life has being compromised by your personal beliefs, but I could endeavour to speculate that the guy who blew himself up shouting "god is great" had his/hers life slightly compromised. LOL That is one extreme example if you like I could come up with many other small but insidious ways. Well, I could list just as many examples of people who did extraordinary things thanks to their belief and faith, and I've got another list where extreme materialism was the cause for people's downfalls. But I get what you're trying to say. It's just that mentioning some extreme cases says nothing about the vast majority of the target group. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sirineou Posted February 12, 2020 Share Posted February 12, 2020 15 minutes ago, Sunmaster said: Well, I could list just as many examples of people who did extraordinary things thanks to their belief and faith, and I've got another list where extreme materialism was the cause for people's downfalls. But I get what you're trying to say. It's just that Sure you could, and i would join you, but given the Billions that have lived and died , I am sure you would agree that the thousands or even the hundreds that have being inspired by religion are a small percentage of, and who is to say that they would not have produced such inspired works with in a secular environment, as en example, one might say that Michelangelo was compromised by religion to the degree that it limited the scope of his creativity, and that Galileo certainly was compromised. Quote mentioning some extreme cases says nothing about the vast majority of the target group. that's why I made sure to say ".That is one extreme example if you like I could come up with many other small but insidious ways. " One not so extreme example would be the gay person who is forced to compromise his sexuality. There are many. An other personal one is when my mother lost a child before it was baptised and on top of the devastation of the event, the Mother <deleted>#*rs would not allow her to bury her child in the church that she was brought up in, and give her the confort she deserved, and was told that her baby girl would burn in hell forever, she talked about that to the day she died. All because that they wanted everyone to join their club before they had a chance to decide for themselves. I never forgot about this and never will. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mauGR1 Posted February 12, 2020 Share Posted February 12, 2020 9 minutes ago, sirineou said: and who is to say that they would not have produced such inspired works with in a secular environment, as en example, one might say that Michelangelo was compromised by religion to the degree that it limited the scope of his creativity, and that Galileo certainly was compromised. Sorry to cut your post, but what you are saying is quite misinformed imho. Afaik, Michelangelo was paid good money by the church, otherwise he could not have painted his frescos. In the middle age, most of the science work was done by monks, not many other folks knew even to write or read ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sirineou Posted February 12, 2020 Share Posted February 12, 2020 (edited) 18 minutes ago, mauGR1 said: Sorry to cut your post, but what you are saying is quite misinformed imho. Afaik, Michelangelo was paid good money by the church, otherwise he could not have painted his frescos. In the middle age, most of the science work was done by monks, not many other folks knew even to write or read ! I am sure he was paid good money by the church but the scope of his creativity was also limited by that. Who is to know what works of art he would have produced otherwise. I can't believe creativity would not have happened without the church as it did happen before. But my line of reasoning is not about specific cases but on how, religious conviction , IF misguided have significantly compromised lives in general. Any misguided life is by definition, compromised to that degree. PS: will be traveling soon, so logging of and wont be back for a few days Edited February 12, 2020 by sirineou 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mauGR1 Posted February 12, 2020 Share Posted February 12, 2020 1 minute ago, sirineou said: But my line of reasoning is not about specific cases but on how, religious conviction , IF misguided have significantly compromised lives in general. Any misguided life is by definition, compromised to that degree. Understand your "line of reasoning" and still think you are completely wrong, sorry. Without the unifying role of religion there would not have been script, science and society as we know it, we would probably still divided into bands and tribes throwing stones against other bands and tribes. Like it or not. Now it's easy to throw curses at religions, but modern society, even with its faults, owes a lot to it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sunmaster Posted February 12, 2020 Share Posted February 12, 2020 (edited) 16 minutes ago, sirineou said: I am sure he was paid good money by the church but the scope of his creativity was also limited by that. Who is to know what works of art he would have produced otherwise. I can't believe creativity would not have happened without the church as it did happen before. But my line of reasoning is not about specific cases but on how, religious conviction , IF misguided have significantly compromised lives in general. Any misguided life is by definition, compromised to that degree. Agreed. Any MISGUIDED belief is dangerous, not just religious ones. Which lays the problem at the feet of the misguided individuals, and not the system itself. That's how you can have people praising God, the bible and poor Jesus, while at the same time condemning gays and all the other idiocies you mentioned. An another one, following the same ideology, but able to actually live Jesus' teachings. Basically, it's not God's fault if there are so many who can't take their heads out of their backsides. Edited February 12, 2020 by Sunmaster 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thaibeachlovers Posted February 12, 2020 Share Posted February 12, 2020 17 hours ago, ivor bigun said: So you are saying that God loves all other people who worship other Gods as well ,do their Gods love people who do not worship them ,but worship your God? and your all certain that yours is the right and only God. After all the debate over 400 pages I thought we had determined that "God" has little to nothing to do with man made religions. Apparently I was wrong. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThaiBunny Posted February 13, 2020 Share Posted February 13, 2020 (edited) 13 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said: After all the debate over 400 pages I thought we had determined that "God" has little to nothing to do with man made religions. Apparently I was wrong. Where you're wrong is that this thread constitutes a "debate". It's people shouting their preconceived opinions at each other. In a debate the chances are you'll shift several people to a different paradigm - can you name half-a-dozen posters in this thread who've said the equivalent of "you've opened my eyes and I must reconsider my position"? Edited February 13, 2020 by ThaiBunny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thaibeachlovers Posted February 13, 2020 Share Posted February 13, 2020 10 minutes ago, ThaiBunny said: Where you're wrong is that this thread constitutes a "debate". It's people shouting their preconceived opinions at each other. In a debate the chances are you'll shift several people to a different paradigm - can you name half-a-dozen posters in this thread who've said the equivalent of "you've opened my eyes and I must reconsider my position"? I've said a few times that my belief in God has changed as a result of this thread. BTW, the "debate" has been going on between the believers, as none of the non believers had any intention of being open to the alternative, IMO. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThaiBunny Posted February 13, 2020 Share Posted February 13, 2020 Just now, thaibeachlovers said: I've said a few times that my belief in God has changed as a result of this thread. And the other five posters who've said the same are ... ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sunmaster Posted February 13, 2020 Share Posted February 13, 2020 I've started to meditate regularly again thanks to this thread. So, while it hasn't changed my belief system, it certainly has rekindled and intensified the longing for union with the divine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UbonThani Posted February 13, 2020 Share Posted February 13, 2020 1 hour ago, ThaiBunny said: Where you're wrong is that this thread constitutes a "debate". It's people shouting their preconceived opinions at each other. In a debate the chances are you'll shift several people to a different paradigm - can you name half-a-dozen posters in this thread who've said the equivalent of "you've opened my eyes and I must reconsider my position"? Bible bashers are brainwashed. Facts don't matter. Same with climate loonies. Total brainwashing. Closed mind. No concept of science. No understanding of logic. There's 3bn people who cannot even understand basic facts. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UbonThani Posted February 13, 2020 Share Posted February 13, 2020 1 hour ago, thaibeachlovers said: I've said a few times that my belief in God has changed as a result of this thread. BTW, the "debate" has been going on between the believers, as none of the non believers had any intention of being open to the alternative, IMO. People need facts. That's all they want. Show us a photo of god Prove Jesus was his son Prove he was reborn If people cannot supply basic facts why would any logical person join some cult? Nobody buys a car without seeing it exists and it has papers. Why would they buy religion? Based on a fictional book? Nobody buys a car based on a novel that the car might exist. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sirineou Posted February 13, 2020 Share Posted February 13, 2020 20 hours ago, Sunmaster said: Basically, it's not God's fault if there are so many who can't take their heads out of their backsides. Only if god has made them that way 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sunmaster Posted February 13, 2020 Share Posted February 13, 2020 1 hour ago, sirineou said: Only if god has made them that way God also created opportunities to better ourselves through knowledge. Men's ignorance is men made. Too many people prefer to choose the blue pill of ignorance than being rattled by the inconvenient and uncomfortable red pill. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sirineou Posted February 13, 2020 Share Posted February 13, 2020 1 minute ago, Sunmaster said: God also created opportunities to better ourselves through knowledge. Men's ignorance is men made. Too many people prefer to choose the blue pill of ignorance than being rattled by the inconvenient and uncomfortable red pill. How convenient God makes everything good, all bad are done by the other guy, God sound like trump to me. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mauGR1 Posted February 13, 2020 Share Posted February 13, 2020 32 minutes ago, sirineou said: How convenient God makes everything good, all bad are done by the other guy, God sound like trump to me. Insulting God is not going to do you any good. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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