Do you believe in God and why

[Sunmaster]

3 minutes ago, sirineou said:

Isnt, this what this Thread is all about?  

What else is there to talk about? Where it all came from?  That we should pray to whatever is between to entangled particles. 

    Didn't someone on your side just said that we should PRAY  for him  to send as salvation for the virus  he send as. 

Oh wait..... I forgot, this is all a test to see how we react. and those who react nice ,nice, will go to the good place, and those who don't play nice will burn.

In the meantime the evangelicals support trump who never goes anywhere without his bible. in fact I am sure he had it with him while he was screwing the porno star, and I am sure he has it with him when he is screwing us.   

"On my side"...??

If you still put me in one pot with those who take the bible literally, who believe there's an actual place called heaven or hell, then I literally think you have understood nothing and I also think I overestimated you greatly. You even add some Trump <deleted> to show how effed up believers must be...
Can your argumentative strategy sink any lower??

But whatever, it's my fault...I should have retired a few pages ago....I just thought we were past this <deleted>.

[sirineou]

Just now, mauGR1 said:

Definitely, you are barking at the wrong tree.

Imho, you had better ask yourself how comes that a so called civilized country has to choose its leader between T. and H.C... Which is beyond sad.

But then, most probably you deserve that.

it is beyond sad, It is all a joke to maintain  the illusion of "democracy" all the principles know it,  they are simply playing a game of musical chairs. and in November 3 2020 when the music stops those having secured a chair at the table will have to wait a few months until another round of the game starts.

  But that's neither here nor there, this thread is about God. and IMO trump is proof that there is no God.  

[mauGR1]

2 minutes ago, sirineou said:

But that's neither here nor there, this thread is about God. and IMO trump is proof that there is no God.  

Not all believers are  indoctrinated brainless fanatics, by now this should be obvious to you.

As for your second sentence, imho, T. is the kind of man which abound in materialistic societies, where the majority of people adore money and power.

[sirineou]

1 minute ago, Sunmaster said:

"On my side"...??

If you still put me in one pot with those who take the bible literally, who believe there's an actual place called heaven or hell, then I literally think you have understood nothing and I also think I overestimated you greatly. You even add some Trump <deleted> to show how effed up believers must be...
Can your argumentative strategy sink any lower??

But whatever, it's my fault...I should have retired a few pages ago....I just thought we were past this <deleted>.

You are taking this personally.

  When I say "your side" I don't mean you personally I mean the other side in this dichotomy. I realise that on the other side of me there is a myriad of positions. I am on the A...... side,, for the purpose of this thread and by your admision  you are all on the other side. Fortunately for me,, and and  easy to remember,, there is only one  A...... side. 

So which part of the Other  side of A.... are you? I think the metaphysical? 

   I contend there is nothing ,metaphysical , only physical,  and that we are only seeing part of the physical, and the part we can't see yet we  call metaphysical. 

  No different from all the parts we could not see in the past and also called metaphysical, until we could see it, at which time we moved them to the physical column. 

So the column of the Physical is growing and the column of the metaphysical is shrinking. but lucky for the metaphysical team it will never shrink to nothing, we will never know everything, so there will always be a home for the metaphysical.

  Please forgive me if I am a little cranky . The only candidate (andrew Yang) who spoke any sense.  in the US Democratic primary election, dropped out leaving us with much of the same and perhaps another 5-8 years until we talk about the AI, automation, and UBI elephant in the room again. So I got my knives out.

 

    

[mauGR1]

14 minutes ago, sirineou said:

No different from all the parts we could not see in the past and also called metaphysical, until we could see it, at which time we moved them to the physical column. 

It is not so clear cut, let me explain..

You can't see the feelings, right ? Yet, if somebody punch you in the nose, it becomes obvious that he doesn't like you.

In the same way, we cannot see a physical image of the intelligent design, but we can deduct its existence by observing the laws which rule the physical world.

If you accept the (wrong) theory that only the physical world exists, you create a wall of ignorance that makes you unable to see beyond the physical reality.

[Skeptic7]

3 hours ago, mauGR1 said:

Definitely, you are barking at the wrong tree.

Imho, you had better ask yourself how comes that a so called civilized country has to choose its leader between T. and H.C... Which is beyond sad.

But then, most probably you deserve that.

It's 'barking UP the wrong tree'. You stated earlier you welcomed being corrected...so you're welcome. ????

[Skeptic7]

3 hours ago, Sunmaster said:

But whatever, it's my fault...I should have retired a few pages ago.

Agreed. 

[VincentRJ]

2 hours ago, mauGR1 said:

It is not so clear cut, let me explain..

You can't see the feelings, right ? Yet, if somebody punch you in the nose, it becomes obvious that he doesn't like you.

Wrong! We can see feelings. The expression on a person's face is an indication of how he/she feels. Surely you can recognize a facial expression of anger before a person punches you in the nose, or a facial expression of sadness, or joy, or revulsion, or disgust, and so on.
 

FMRI scans of the brain can also detect activity in parts of the brain that are associated with certain types of emotion. For example, when people who are great fans of the Apple iPhone are shown the latest Apple iPhone, as they pass through the FMRI scanner, the same parts of the brain light up as in other people's brains who are very religious and who are shown images of Jesus Christ. ????

[Skeptic7]

4 hours ago, sirineou said:

God is like the mafia, first he sends as a virus, then he wants payment to make it go away. 

Exactly...their god-thing, spirit, whatever, in their terms...is same as the a-hole neighbor that sets someone's house ablaze and then needs/wants/expects (AND they just freely give this a-hole) thanks when when he comes over and wakes them up to let them know their house is burning. Makes zero sense. 

 

Something else that makes zero sense is that 2 formerly semi-rational "spiritualists" here are now basically indistinguishable from the hard-core Bible thumping "godies"!!! Gone totally off the deep end. ????

[mauGR1]

16 minutes ago, VincentRJ said:

Wrong! We can see feelings. The expression on a person's face is an indication of how he/she feels. Surely you can recognize a facial expression of anger before a person punches you in the nose, or a facial expression of sadness, or joy, or revulsion, or disgust, and so on.

Well, i can be as pedantic as you, if you ask.

When your eyes are closed, or you look in another direction, you don't see facial expressions ????

[sirineou]

2 hours ago, mauGR1 said:

It is not so clear cut, let me explain..

You can't see the feelings, right ? Yet, if somebody punch you in the nose, it becomes obvious that he doesn't like you.

In the same way, we cannot see a physical image of the intelligent design, but we can deduct its existence by observing the laws which rule the physical world.

If you accept the (wrong) theory that only the physical world exists, you create a wall of ignorance that makes you unable to see beyond the physical reality.

 

when someone punch you in the nose    You can deduct that someone doesn't  not like you, because you have previous knowledge concerning the relationship of physical violence and  feelings that would cause such physical  violence. You have seen, heard, being told of documented cases where people who did not like other people pinched them in the face.   Both the feelings and the result of these feelings exist in the physical world and tiy access them. There are evidence of the behaviour,

An intelligent design  if it exists , exists outside the physical world,  there is no previous evidence of any other "intelligent design" you did not see ,hear, or know of another universe that was intelligently designed so you can not  assume that this one must also be intelligently designed, 

It is non sequitur 

 

[mauGR1]

2 minutes ago, sirineou said:

An intelligent design  if it exists , exists outside the physical world,  there is no previous evidence of any other "intelligent design" you did not see ,hear, or know of another universe that was intelligently designed so you can not  assume that this one must also be intelligently designed, 

It is non sequitur 

Well, of course i can only use the tools which i have to speculate about the existence of an intelligent design.

Another example, a car factory can produce thousands of cars of the same model, because there is an intelligent design behind, the same goes for trees, animals, humans.

Yet, if we consider only humans, while the physical characteristics are surely depending on the genes of the parents, the intellect can be totally different.

 

There are patterns in nature which are difficult to dismiss as a product of chaos.

[sirineou]

8 minutes ago, mauGR1 said:

Well, i can be as pedantic as you, if you ask.

When your eyes are closed, or you look in another direction, you don't see facial expressions ????

But you have seen it in the past, it is common knowledge supported by a long history on the subject. 

there is evidence linking the emotional state and the reaction. That supports the assumption.

There is no evidence that supports "intelligent design"

Previously I was taken to task for suggesting that your side believes in a "Meddling" god. now your side argues for "intelligent design" if that's not meddling I don't know what is. Or are you all argue that God designed all these and then forgot about it? If so shouldn't we then say the was a God, rather than there is a God?  

 

 

 

[WalkingOrders]

On 1/30/2020 at 4:09 PM, ThaiBunny said:

My standard response to that sort of thing is to challenge the other person to prove that their experience or evidence is not simply a placebo. My niece is a firm believer in a lot of the New Age fads, especially "organic produce" as well as the more bizarre end of the medical spectrum such as kinesiology, acupuncture and homeopathy. Interestingly homeopathy and "organic produce" are intellectual twins - each believes that undetectable particles can benefit or harm those who use or don't use such nostrums. Needless to say she is incapable of demonstrating that any claimed benefits is anything other than a placebo

I agree with your general flow of thought here, but disagree with your examples. Organic produce is produce that if truly organic aims to reduce the amount of pesticides into the ecosystem. This is not pseudoscience. Pesticide, non organic fertilizer runoff is a serious ecological issue. As for taste, or benefit from consuming organic, I admit that may be sometimes overblown. In itself you aren't suddenly healthy, but usually natural does taste better.

 

As for acupuncture, this is proven to work beyond a placebo affect, and unfortunately is lumped in with pseudoscience.

 

Back to organic, those particles ARE detectable, and measurable, both in the environment and the human body.

 

 

[Skeptic7]

8 minutes ago, mauGR1 said:

Well, of course i can only use the tools which i have to speculate about the existence of an intelligent design.

Another example, a car factory can produce thousands of cars of the same model, because there is an intelligent design behind, the same goes for trees, animals, humans.

Yet, if we consider only humans, while the physical characteristics are surely depending on the genes of the parents, the intellect can be totally different.

 

There are patterns in nature which are difficult to dismiss as a product of chaos.

Patterns, as described by wishers (aka believers), are vastly different from the EVIDENCE and the distinct examples, which you are equating them. To those whom just cannot accept rational, logical arguments and reason...your analogy appears sound. To any whom value reason and actual evidence as a pathway to getting to a real answer...your analogy/explanation fails. Miserably so to be honest. 

[sirineou]

8 minutes ago, mauGR1 said:

Well, of course i can only use the tools which i have to speculate about the existence of an intelligent design.

Another example, a car factory can produce thousands of cars of the same model, because there is an intelligent design behind, the same goes for trees, animals, humans.

Yet, if we consider only humans, while the physical characteristics are surely depending on the genes of the parents, the intellect can be totally different.

 

There are patterns in nature which are difficult to dismiss as a product of chaos.

Cars are designed to fit humans and the universe they belong in , The Universe was not designed to fit hunans and the cars they drive,   

[WalkingOrders]

10 hours ago, ThaiBunny said:

Just like some forms of psychopathology then - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imaginary_friend

There is a joke from a film (the film escapes me now) where a guy in a mental hospital claims to be God. The doctors question how he arrived at this conclusion. He says that when he prays he always winds up talking to himself, therefore, he must be God.

 

When I pray, I am always talking to myself, yes framed toward a being which I imagine.

 

Framed in terms of my own religious background, one which has changed often over the decades. Prayer directed to my Father in heaven is simply a conversation with someone I have hope, and faith exists, but whom rationally I must admit that I have no proof of existence.

 

How I feel, or what I take for results of my prayers, may suffice as evidence of a sort, and at times very strong evidence, but I recognize that any religious or spiritual practice may come to similar conclusion.

 

Where I have issue is when such thoughts regarding outcomes are attempted to be offered as scientific proof.

 

Having said that, in a general sense, there is proof of the well being that people in prayer or other spiritual practice receive.

 

An atheist, who practices some form of mental, physical exercise with regularity, I would expect could profess, or even be measured, for similar result.

 

[WalkingOrders]

4 hours ago, sirineou said:

it is beyond sad, It is all a joke to maintain  the illusion of "democracy" all the principles know it,  they are simply playing a game of musical chairs. and in November 3 2020 when the music stops those having secured a chair at the table will have to wait a few months until another round of the game starts.

  But that's neither here nor there, this thread is about God. and IMO trump is proof that there is no God.  

One opinion which does not constitute proof of anything other then perhaps that you do not like Donald Trump, but that thread is elsewhere.

[WalkingOrders]

21 minutes ago, sirineou said:

Cars are designed to fit humans and the universe they belong in , The Universe was not designed to fit hunans and the cars they drive,   

I have no proof to the opposite, and your point likewise not proved. We seem to fit here pretty well considering the odds.

[AsianAtHeart]

9 hours ago, ravip said:

Ok. Ok. Let's stop the arguments and start praying to God to help humanity to solve this Coronavirus thingy ASAP. After all, HE should have a solution up his sleeve?

Let's join hands, bow our heads and start praying.

God certainly does have a solution.  It applies specially to those who put their trust in God.  You'll find it in Psalm 91.

[WalkingOrders]

4 hours ago, sirineou said:

You are taking this personally.

  When I say "your side" I don't mean you personally I mean the other side in this dichotomy. I realise that on the other side of me there is a myriad of positions. I am on the A...... side,, for the purpose of this thread and by your admision  you are all on the other side. Fortunately for me,, and and  easy to remember,, there is only one  A...... side. 

So which part of the Other  side of A.... are you? I think the metaphysical? 

   I contend there is nothing ,metaphysical , only physical,  and that we are only seeing part of the physical, and the part we can't see yet we  call metaphysical. 

  No different from all the parts we could not see in the past and also called metaphysical, until we could see it, at which time we moved them to the physical column. 

So the column of the Physical is growing and the column of the metaphysical is shrinking. but lucky for the metaphysical team it will never shrink to nothing, we will never know everything, so there will always be a home for the metaphysical.

  Please forgive me if I am a little cranky . The only candidate (andrew Yang) who spoke any sense.  in the US Democratic primary election, dropped out leaving us with much of the same and perhaps another 5-8 years until we talk about the AI, automation, and UBI elephant in the room again. So I got my knives out.

 

    

Quite honestly, I don't think there is a side here. I tend to agree with anyone here who States something with logic and reason, or lays out some sort of interesting metaphysical argument, or discussion of some ritual, practice, or belief, or lack of belief, especially if it's new to me. I have laughed at, and admired posts from the same people. This is a long and interesting thread, and I am fairly new here ...Weeks.

[sirineou]

7 minutes ago, WalkingOrders said:

One opinion which does not constitute proof of anything other then perhaps that you do not like Donald Trump, but that thread is elsewhere.

trump is not the disease trump is a symptome, one way on another trump will go away, the disease will remain infecting others on both sides of the isle.

I don't  think there is anyone who will argue that the electoral system is not broken, so I don't understand  , are you saying that it is not and that it is just fine?  

[sirineou]

4 minutes ago, WalkingOrders said:

Quite honestly, I don't think there is a side here. I tend to agree with anyone here who States something with logic and reason, or lays out some sort of interesting metaphysical argument, or discussion of some ritual, practice, or belief, or lack of belief, especially if it's new to me. I have laughed at, and admired posts from the same people. This is a long and interesting thread, and I am fairly new here ...Weeks.

[WalkingOrders]

1 minute ago, sirineou said:

trump is not the disease trump is a symptome, one way on another trump will go away, the disease will remain infecting others on both sides of the isle.

I don't  think there is anyone who will argue that the electoral system is not broken, so I don't understand  , are you saying that it is not and that it is just fine?  

I am saying a discussion on the merits, or lack of, concerning Donald J Trump do not belong in this thread.

[sirineou]

Just now, WalkingOrders said:

I am saying a discussion on the merits, or lack of, concerning Donald J Trump do not belong in this thread.

Only to the degree that religion is used in politics, and that the fact that he is president proves that there is no god.  if there is one she certainly has a warped sense of humor.  

[mauGR1]

3 minutes ago, sirineou said:

There is no evidence that supports "intelligent design"

Perhaps you expect a physical evidence, but it's not going to happen.

Yet, the order of the universe is enough for me to prove the existence of an intelligent design.

 

4 minutes ago, sirineou said:

Previously I was taken to task for suggesting that your side believes in a "Meddling" god. now your side argues for "intelligent design" if that's not meddling I don't know what is. Or are you all argue that God designed all these and then forgot about it? If so shouldn't we then say the was a God, rather than there is a God?  

God, intended as intelligent design is eternal, very difficult for our intellect to grasp concepts like "infinite" or "eternal".

You should concede that is beyond our abilities to prove, or disprove eternity or infinity.

[sirineou]

4 minutes ago, WalkingOrders said:

I am saying a discussion on the merits, or lack of, concerning Donald J Trump do not belong in this thread.

Ohh .. are you saying that trump is not one of Gods creations? if so I agree

[sirineou]

2 minutes ago, mauGR1 said:

Perhaps you expect a physical evidence, but it's not going to happen.

Yet, the order of the universe is enough for me to prove the existence of an intelligent design.

what other evidence is there?

5 minutes ago, mauGR1 said:

God, intended as intelligent design is eternal, very difficult for our intellect to grasp concepts like "infinite" or "eternal".

You should concede that is beyond our abilities to prove, or disprove eternity or infinity.

I do , that's why I consider your assertions concerning God incomprehensible 

[mauGR1]

49 minutes ago, sirineou said:

Cars are designed to fit humans and the universe they belong in , The Universe was not designed to fit hunans and the cars they drive,   

Well, i honestly doubt that you know why the universe was built.

Pls take my imperfect comparison as it is, both cars and human bodies are the product of intelligent design, imho.

[mauGR1]

2 minutes ago, sirineou said:

I do , that's why I consider your assertions concerning God incomprehensible 

Well, there are serious clues though, but i don't want to convince you of anything.