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Do you believe in God and why


ivor bigun

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43 minutes ago, sirineou said:

Yes but what about the chocolate? back on my Christian days all we got was a cracker some bad wine, and a chance to exchange germs, No one said anything about chocolate. If i knew there might be chocolat I might had reconsidered this whole thing. By the way what kind of chocolate are we talking about? :tongue: 

Hold on a sec!.....YOU GOT WINE!?!?!? ???? ???? ????

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5 minutes ago, Tippaporn said:

I still can't get over how Luckyluke and I gave identical answers.  How did it happen?  You know, maybe we could do a poll so we all know where we each stand.

 

Luckyluke and Tippaporn both gave identical answers using identical verbiage due to:

 

A, The God of Chance spun the Wheel of Fortune and it randomly stopped on Luckyluke's name.

B. It was the miracle of God and he moved his hand to pat Luckyluke on his head as a reward for some good deed Luckyluke performed.

C. I telepathically picked up on Luckyluke's thoughts.

D. It's all just a fantasy.

 

Use emojis to vote.  Give me a heart for A, confused for B, a sad face for C, and a laugh for D.

 

I'm assuming we all come here with a generous sense of humour?

There are other possibilities though.

Perhaps @luckyluke is the Dalai Lama in disguise, and he's having a laugh ????

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28 minutes ago, luckyluke said:

Happiness can sometimes be found in simple earthly things.

Lots of people are happy and perfectly content without any knowledge of what we talk about here.  There's nothing written in stone stating that a prerequisite for finding happiness is a thorough understanding how the universe works.

 

Else we would be living in a truly miserable world.  :biggrin:

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1 hour ago, Tippaporn said:

I find it interesting as well, regarding science, that a branch does not exist which is tasked with assimilating the findings of the many disparate branches, which oftentimes seem to be at odds with each other, to present a uniform, comprehensive view of reality with which all branches are in consensus.

I've also been fascinated with theories that could integrate seemingly different areas of the human experience. 
I don't remember who said it, but I've learned that a problem can never be solved satisfactorily when the solution comes from the same level where the problem originated. To solve a problem or conflict, a higher perspective has to be taken. A perspective that allows you a new creative solution, that was hidden on the lower level.
Imagine you to be a 2 dimensional being. You live on the surface of a coin. You're at war with the 2 dimensional guys on other side of the coin. Only those who live in a 3 dimensional world will understand that both sides are just the proverbial 2 sides of 1 coin.
The same way, those problems and conflicts that to us seem insurmountable, will be easily solved once we, as a society, reach a higher perspective. 

You mention quantum physics as a scientific discipline that could give a comprehensive view of reality. I know too little about that subject to comment, but I can recommend Ken Wilber's Integral Theory, that does exactly that. I'm sure you'll find it fascinating. 
Integral theory is Ken Wilber's attempt to place a wide diversity of theories and thinkers into one single framework. It is portrayed as a "theory of everything", trying "to draw together an already existing number of separate paradigms into an interrelated network of approaches that are mutually enriching." Wikipedia

 

 

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28 minutes ago, sirineou said:

As long as it is not this little fake chocolates, just a little shell of Chocolate filled with all short of sweet stuff inside. I am a chocolat purist.  

Dark chocolate melting  in my mouth . if the religion side wanted to make a good case for the existence of God Chocolat should be at the center of their argument. 

Have not found a good place for chocolate in Thailand, That along with Kalamata olives are the two things I bring with me to Thailand, If you do keep it in your carry on, Last time I put it in my checked in luggage and it melted. Come to think about it , that;s probably the worst thing about going to hell.........:tongue:

Dark chocolate is the best.  Although, I would never refuse milk chocolate.  :licklips:  You can keep the white chocolate, though.

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12 hours ago, Tippaporn said:

Assume for a moment that consciousness is not dependent on form.  One obvious implication of that would be that we survive death.  Another important implication would be that physical reality is but one reality.  Another is that if consciousness is not dependent on form then an after death environment may well be one of formlessness, in other words non-physical.  And furthermore, if we were not dependent on form and we embark to another reality after this one then it would be implied that our physical reality is not a closed system (else the travel of consciousness beyond this reality would be impossible).

 

Let's playfully consider these assumptions as true.  If we survive death, and if our reality is indeed only one of many (perhaps infinite), and if our system is not closed, then it would only be logical that information has pathways allowing it to cross between realities.  In which case the flow of information goes both ways.

 

....

 

You were doing OK right up until you got to this point, at which point your logic completely and totally collapsed.

 

There is absolutely no reason at all to assume information can flow in both directions. The most accepted theory of black holes, which are the closest thing we know of that might mimic your exchange of information between realms, is that information can only go in one direction. It is not that information is lost, merely that in passing it is scrambled to the point that it no longer has any coherence or meaning.  In fact, one way information flow is the norm in almost physical process. Bidirectional flows are actually the exception rather than the rule. Following your hypothetical scenario, the fact that consciousness could flow from this from this physical universe to the next, absolutely in no way applies the reverse is true. In fact, given what we know of the laws of physics, it is actually a highly unlikely scenario.

 

A more physically plausible hypothesis would be that some event like the Big Bang acts a source, and the one way flow of consciousness outside of this universe, should such a thing exist, is a sink. There is no reason to believe any information ever comes back in after it has left.

 

 

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6 minutes ago, Monomial said:

 

You were doing OK right up until you got to this point, at which point your logic completely and totally collapsed.

 

There is absolutely no reason at all to assume information can flow in both directions. The most accepted theory of black holes, which are the closest thing we know of that might mimic your exchange of information between realms, is that information can only go in one direction. It is not that information is lost, merely that in passing it is scrambled to the point that it no longer has any coherence or meaning.  In fact, one way information flow is the norm in almost physical process. Bidirectional flows are actually the exception rather than the rule. Following your hypothetical scenario, the fact that consciousness could flow from this from this physical universe to the next, absolutely in no way applies the reverse is true. In fact, given what we know of the laws of physics, it is actually a highly unlikely scenario.

 

A more physically plausible hypothesis would be that some event like the Big Bang acts a source, and the one way flow of consciousness outside of this universe, should such a thing exist, is a sink. There is no reason to believe any information ever comes back in after it has left.

 

 

I can see very well how information can travel both ways when I look at consciousness. Information comes to me from the higher realms of consciousness in form of glimpses of truth, inspiration, moments of bliss. It also travels from me to the higher realms in the form of prayers for example. It doesn't matter if they are answered or not, it matters that they go in that direction.

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10 minutes ago, Sunmaster said:

I've also been fascinated with theories that could integrate seemingly different areas of the human experience. 
I don't remember who said it, but I've learned that a problem can never be solved satisfactorily when the solution comes from the same level where the problem originated. To solve a problem or conflict, a higher perspective has to be taken. A perspective that allows you a new creative solution, that was hidden on the lower level.
Imagine you to be a 2 dimensional being. You live on the surface of a coin. You're at war with the 2 dimensional guys on other side of the coin. Only those who live in a 3 dimensional world will understand that both sides are just the proverbial 2 sides of 1 coin.
The same way, those problems and conflicts that to us seem insurmountable, will be easily solved once we, as a society, reach a higher perspective. 

You mention quantum physics as a scientific discipline that could give those kind of answers. I know too little about that subject to comment, but I can recommend Ken Wilber's Integral Theory, that does exactly that. I'm sure you'll find it fascinating. 
Integral theory is Ken Wilber's attempt to place a wide diversity of theories and thinkers into one single framework. It is portrayed as a "theory of everything", trying "to draw together an already existing number of separate paradigms into an interrelated network of approaches that are mutually enriching." Wikipedia

 

 

In my first post I alluded to this:

 

"So here's an interesting question:  What if an entity (I'm assuming we are neither male nor female but both) were to send information to us explaining our reality, who we really are, what "God" is (the term one wishes to use for a prime entity is unimportant), and how reality works in specific detail?  Has it happened?  Is it still happening?"

 

Those tomes have kept me busy for 40+ years.  Every time I reread them something new pops out.  They're enough to last me my lifetime.

 

Otherwise, there are other similar sources.  Also, started out with Carlos Castaneda and Richard Bach when I was in my teens.  At that time Journeys Out of the Body by Robert Monroe was a good read for me, too. Raised a Catholic and served as an altar boy.  Too many contradictions in religion for me.  For instance, God is all forgiving while at the same time if you don't lavish him with devotion and you take too many missteps then you'll burn in he-ll for all eternity.  Eternity is a long, long time, you know.  That and the entire concept of Heaven.  Heaven is supposedly a place of perfection.  Which in my view would be true death as growth would no longer be possible.  I mean, how is it possible to improve on perfection?  Seems to me I would get bored to death after awhile with nothing to challenge me.

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9 minutes ago, Sunmaster said:

I can see very well how information can travel both ways when I look at consciousness. Information comes to me from the higher realms of consciousness in form of glimpses of truth, inspiration, moments of bliss. It also travels from me to the higher realms in the form of prayers for example. It doesn't matter if they are answered or not, it matters that they go in that direction.

 

I have never experienced any of that in my entire life, so I guess that is what separates us.

 

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1 hour ago, Monomial said:

 

I have never experienced any of that in my entire life, so I guess that is what separates us.

 

If you hadn't you wouldn't be alive. ????

The information that travels "downwards" is the force that powers every particle in the universe.

I'm also confident that at some point or other you've been inspired to do something (creating art, writing...), maybe an intuition influenced a decision that changed the course of your life, or a particular brilliant thought popped in your head unexpectedly. 

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2 hours ago, Monomial said:

 

You were doing OK right up until you got to this point, at which point your logic completely and totally collapsed.

 

There is absolutely no reason at all to assume information can flow in both directions. The most accepted theory of black holes, which are the closest thing we know of that might mimic your exchange of information between realms, is that information can only go in one direction. It is not that information is lost, merely that in passing it is scrambled to the point that it no longer has any coherence or meaning.  In fact, one way information flow is the norm in almost physical process. Bidirectional flows are actually the exception rather than the rule. Following your hypothetical scenario, the fact that consciousness could flow from this from this physical universe to the next, absolutely in no way applies the reverse is true. In fact, given what we know of the laws of physics, it is actually a highly unlikely scenario.

 

A more physically plausible hypothesis would be that some event like the Big Bang acts a source, and the one way flow of consciousness outside of this universe, should such a thing exist, is a sink. There is no reason to believe any information ever comes back in after it has left.

 

 

There is absolutely no reason at all to assume information can flow in both directions.

 

It would be fair to say, none that you are aware of.  Lack of awareness does not disprove the existence, or in this case the possibility of something.  Science has not reached the point of being all-knowing.  That we can certainly agree upon.

 

The most accepted theory of black holes, which are the closest thing we know of that might mimic your exchange of information between realms, is that information can only go in one direction.

 

I think it fair to point out that science only has theories of how black holes work.  I find it fascinating that only science is granted the luxury and leeway where theories can be considered on par with fact.  Granted, only as long as they can claim they have enough supporting evidence for their theory.  A rose is a rose by any other name and as far as I'm concerned it applies to theories as well.  In the meantime they speak of their theories as fact while the average Joe is mistakenly then under the impression that science has proven their theory.

 

It is not that information is lost, merely that in passing it is scrambled to the point that it no longer has any coherence or meaning.

 

Theory.  No one has been through a black hole so how can they possibly be certain as to what happens to information as it passes through?  And what is information?  Is information physical?  Is a thought physical?  Has science been able to detect thoughts as they traverse between their origin (and where might that be?) to their destination inside your head?  And where do thoughts go after they pass from one ear out the other?  If thoughts are not physical and scientists cannot track them in their travels in our world how would they possibly know what becomes of them within a black hole?  How would a thought, a piece of information, become scrambled to the point of incoherency?  I mean, specifically.  O.K., then generally?

 

Their theories are dealing strictly with a physical universe.  The idea of the existence of a non-physical reality doesn't even enter into their minds, so obviously not into their equations either.  As I've mentioned I'm suggesting that we're dealing with a reality which is non-physical.  Physical laws would no longer apply.  No time, no space, no objective reality.  So how would that work?

 

Now, I've made a number of opening statements which are meant as a start in painting an alternate picture of reality.  I've throw out just a few puzzle pieces of a mega puzzle.  From what I have offered thus far would you rationally expect to have a full picture?  Wouldn't it be similar to reading a few sentences, or perhaps a few paragraphs, of a 5,000 page tome and being expected to write a review of the book?  Of course not.  Is there a difference here?

 

It's worth considering as well, and it would be prudent to do so, that we've been fed pieces to many different puzzles throughout our time in this world (as has been accurately expressed by mauGR!), with contradictions in great abundance.  How much of the information which has been retained by any of us is false?  How would we know which of the multitude of beliefs we hold may in fact be false and which are true?  For certain a false belief held as true would never be scrutinized.  Why for?  The belief would not be seen as a belief about reality but as a condition of reality.  It would seem ludicrous to doubt "reality," would it not?

 

How, in all fairness, could you claim that my "logic completely and totally collapsed" when you've been exposed to what represents the tip of the tip of the tip of the iceberg?  Is that not premature?  And, would it be fair or prudent or realistic or logical to dismiss out of hand an alternate explanation of reality the moment a new piece of information contradicts information that thus far you've held as true?  Again, wouldn't that be considered a wee bit fast with the trigger finger?  That might lead to the death of an innocent (in this case, idea).

 

If you're interested in how thought materialises, coalesces into physical matter, the specific mechanics behind it, then I can point you in a direction.  It's perfectly O.K. to simply say, "Nah, not interested."  I'm not here to convince anyone of anything; simply here to provide information, food for thought, and let the individual decide for his or herself what they would like to do with the information.  My feelings would not be damaged in the least.

 

BTW, what's a white hole?  One last question?  How much of the entire universe (whose limits we do not even know) is known to us and what might exist "out there" which we are absolutely clueless about?

 

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10 minutes ago, Tippaporn said:

How, in all fairness, could you claim that my "logic completely and totally collapsed" when you've been exposed to what represents the tip of the tip of the tip of the iceberg?  Is that not premature?  And, would it be fair or prudent or realistic or logical to dismiss out of hand an alternate explanation of reality the moment a new piece of information contradicts information that thus far you've held as true?  Again, wouldn't that be considered a wee bit fast with the trigger finger?  Than might lead to the death of an innocent (in this case, idea).

Hallelujah!

Wish I could write so well... 

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12 hours ago, Tippaporn said:

Now that reply drew a smile on my lips.  Well, I've made my point as best I could but I am not intent on beating a dead horse.  In my view, though it may be fantastical, I believe the balance of probabilities that we would ever agree lies somewhere in the far negative range.  I'll let this dog lie.

Perhaps Matthew 7:6 applies

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9 hours ago, Sunmaster said:

But whether God comes to you unannounced or after you've called out to him for years, the experience will always be subjective. If you're lucky enough that one day it will happen to you, I guarantee that you too will have no doubts to the truth of your experience. Even though your atheist friends will laugh at you or call you crazy, you will know better and not give a sh!t. ???? 

You're talking to someone who spent several years in a seminary, but if that's your current fantasy, knock your socks off

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11 hours ago, Sunmaster said:

Then Spirit came knocking on my (inner) door of perception. Actually, it was more like it ran the door down and barged into my house, along with his huge cosmic orchestra and heavenly dance ensemble, and decided to have the mother of all parties in my modest 4 walls.

Yes, that rather agrees with the experience of those who are treating PTSD with supervised doses of LSD & MDMA. You might find these three recent podcasts of interest -

https://www.abc.net.au/radionational/programs/healthreport/anxiety-depression-and-the-new-science-of-psychedelics-part-1/11670232

https://www.abc.net.au/radionational/programs/healthreport/anxiety-depression-and-the-new-science-of-psychedelics-part-two/11692998

https://www.abc.net.au/radionational/programs/scienceshow/magic-mushroom-compound-psilocybin-shows-promise-for-treatment/11686878

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1 hour ago, ThaiBunny said:

I know in the 70s there were some very successful treatments of addiction, depression and prison rehabilitation, but then they got cancelled because society couldn't handle it.

I think ayahuasca is still being used for heroin addiction.

 

I'll read the articles later. Thanks

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13 hours ago, Sunmaster said:

Then Spirit came knocking on my (inner) door of perception. Actually, it was more like it ran the door down and barged into my house, along with his huge cosmic orchestra and heavenly dance ensemble, and decided to have the mother of all parties in my modest 4 walls.
Once they all left, there was absolutely no way I could deny the existence of what until then I considered utter BS, and not for a single second did I doubt that what just happened was more real than anything I experienced until then.

That's rather an enjoyable experience.

And apparently changed your life. 

 

It can however be different.

 

I read  that

some were visited by "God" and were ordered to kill, and they obey.

 

It changed their life too.

 

 

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29 minutes ago, Sunmaster said:

I know in the 70s there were some very successful treatments of addiction, depression and prison rehabilitation, but then they got cancelled because society couldn't handle it.

I think ayahuasca is still being used for heroin addiction.

 

I'll read the articles later. Thanks

They're podcasts, you'll need to listen to them

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2 hours ago, luckyluke said:

That's rather an enjoyable experience.

And apparently changed your life. 

 

It can however be different.

 

I read  that

some were visited by "God" and were ordered to kill, and they obey.

 

It changed their life too.

 

 

Yes, but what about all the other crimes, or are you saying that God is involved in all the crimes ?

Would you exterminate all the believers to reach the imaginary goal of a crime-free society ?

 

Tbh, your argument makes no sense to me, violence is embedded in the great picture of the physical world, and everyone is partly responsible imho.

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7 minutes ago, mauGR1 said:

Yes, but what about all the other crimes, or are you saying that God is involved in all the crimes ?

I never pretend that.

 

It only state that some (As Sunmaster) had a nice encounter with "God" (or whatever one want to call it) and it changed positively their life.

 

Others received from "God/or whatever" the order to kill or doing other terrible things, and it changed dramatically their lives.

 

I believe they all encounter an "event".

 

I am not in a position (and believe nobody can) to determine who may possibly fabricate this event, and who's not.

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10 minutes ago, canuckamuck said:

 I would love to see you lay out your argument, determining God doesn't exist, using Occam's razor methodology.

Not going to happen, apparently, the dear atheists love to hide themselves behind the brittle authority of not better specified, "scientific" dogmas, but God knows, many of them hate the honest work of thought. ????

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