Hummin Posted July 30, 2022 Share Posted July 30, 2022 31 minutes ago, mauGR1 said: I'm 62, and I've never met the type you describe. Perhaps it's a product of your fantasy ???? I believe the world, the universe are part of an intelligent design, and i can assure you that it's not blind faith, but well-pondered examination of facts. So you see a clock, and you know it's built by humans, then you see the solar system, and that is a random effect of some big bang. So you also think that there's no intelligent life in the whole universe, apart from humans ? I have met a few in Florida where they go around to bars and talked to people, regulary had Jehovas on my door around where I lived in Norway, and also met one English guy in Kanchanaburi with his wife at a resort he visited regularly to seek up people who wanted to listen to him and also support his charity visiting foreigners in prison in Thailand. Had a long chat almost the whole flight from Shanghai to Schipol with an Chatolic bishop, and with all respect there is not often I speak to anyone next to me on an airplane but this was actually the most interesting conversation I had on an airplane ever. Except a few hot ladies of course, but this Bishop is the most excellent, interesting intelligent creature I ever had the chance to talk under two eyes for so long. They are really educated in many different orientations, and also know their mission for the people they serving. There is a reason they have the hierarchy, the dresses, the art, the symbols the mythical rituals, because it works! For me personally it is disgusting how they practice many things, but obvious people need something to clinch to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sunmaster Posted July 30, 2022 Share Posted July 30, 2022 10 minutes ago, Hummin said: You are a privileged white man who have everything you need, and as you state, you do not need any fairytale figure to be thankfull for everything you got, neither do you pray for forgiveness or chamge in your life. For poor people, people who feel lost, need a meaning to explain all the horrible things going on in the world, it is different, they search for something or some to comfort them that everything is going to be ok, and also the need of someone who can listen to their story and their problems. Where we come from we have or many have resources to go to a shrink who can do exactly the same. Sometimes it takes a little bit understanding and empathy to understand simple things. You and me are privileged with choices What you say is true, but it would be a mistake to think that all believers believe due to being poor, uneducated or lost. That seems to be a widespread misconception among the materialists/atheists who believe that with scientific advancements all these messy beliefs in God, higher consciousness and whatnot would simply disappear. What falls away are superstitions, not the need to explore the deeper meaning in life. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mauGR1 Posted July 30, 2022 Share Posted July 30, 2022 3 minutes ago, Hummin said: For me personally it is disgusting how they practice many things, but obvious people need something to clinch to. That's an interesting observation, and i agree with your conclusion. So if people have education and money, they don't need god and they clinch to materialism. Unfortunately i don't think that materialistic culture is doing a lot of good to the world in general. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat is a type of crazy Posted July 30, 2022 Share Posted July 30, 2022 (edited) 52 minutes ago, mauGR1 said: I'm 62, and I've never met the type you describe. Perhaps it's a product of your fantasy ???? I believe the world, the universe are part of an intelligent design, and i can assure you that it's not blind faith, but well-pondered examination of facts. So you see a clock, and you know it's built by humans, then you see the solar system, and that is a random effect of some big bang. So you also think that there's no intelligent life in the whole universe, apart from humans ? Keep in mind we are a product of this environment. So there's no coincidence that we can live on the earth easily as we are the winners of evolution. Through evolution, we had to become something that could exist and adapt as fully as possible, to be as evolved and in control on earth as is possible. So you might say how could the rules of the universe, the stars, and the earth environment be so perfect for us unless it was designed by a god for the purpose of allowing us to live there. When in fact you can say not so long ago we weren't there and lots of life forms had new variations, some that could not adapt and some that could, and the latter lead to us. An eye didn't just become an eye - it evolved over time from a light sensitive thing to a full eye. Once an animal had an eye it had a huge advantage over its competition. We can look at a rose or a solar system and see beauty but that ability and perception was hard fought for to adapt to this world. We evolved to fit the earth not the earth created to fit for us. There are millions of planets uninhabited and not fit for life. This fact isn't necessary for your theory to be correct but objectively it makes the evolution theory make more sense. There is nothing in your theory or evolutionary theory that precludes other planets somewhere having life. Edited July 30, 2022 by Fat is a type of crazy 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mauGR1 Posted July 30, 2022 Share Posted July 30, 2022 3 minutes ago, Fat is a type of crazy said: Through evolution, we had to become something that could exist and adapt as fully as possible, to be as evolved and in control on earth as is possible. So you might say how could the rules of the universe, the stars, and the earth environment be so perfect for us unless it was designed by a god for the purpose of allowing us to live there. When in fact you can say not so long ago we weren't there and lots of life forms had new variations, some that could not adapt and some that could, and the latter lead to us. An eye didn't just become an eye - it evolved over time from a light sensitive thing to a full eye. Once an animal had an eye it had a huge advantage over its competition. We can look at a rose or a solar system and see beauty but that ability and perception was hard fought for to adapt to this world. We evolved to fit the earth not the earth created to fit for us. I think there's something right in the evolution theory. Most of what you say though, is just theory. It has not been proven, and most likely it won't be. Also, evolution of the species is undoubtedly an intelligent design, so are you suggesting that an intelligent design has randomly been created by chaos? Well, everything is possible, but it seems unlikely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hummin Posted July 30, 2022 Share Posted July 30, 2022 8 minutes ago, Sunmaster said: What you say is true, but it would be a mistake to think that all believers believe due to being poor, uneducated or lost. That seems to be a widespread misconception among the materialists/atheists who believe that with scientific advancements all these messy beliefs in God, higher consciousness and whatnot would simply disappear. What falls away are superstitions, not the need to explore the deeper meaning in life. You are right, and I was pragmatic and a simple resonance. Im fully aware of the whole specter or resons to belive, and it is not only because of true faith which is also true for some all over the specter, but more of tradition, tribe, socializing, power, and to fit in somewhere. As said there is many reasons to believe, but I find more people connected to the tradition and real faith among poorer countries alike Philippines, Thailand, Indonesia,,,,,,,,,, 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat is a type of crazy Posted July 30, 2022 Share Posted July 30, 2022 (edited) 9 minutes ago, mauGR1 said: Also, evolution of the species is undoubtedly an intelligent design, so are you suggesting that an intelligent design has randomly been created by chaos? You probably know this but your language suggests you don't. I am no scientist but think of cells just replicating in different ways. Not intelligent cells working out how to survive but just some chemical and biological process. Some variations live. Some don't. The ones that live do the same and create 1,000,000 almost exactly like them and 50 that have some difference or irregularity. 40 of those die. 8 are different - no better or worse. Two have a variation that means they have a slight advantage to survive etc etc leading to us Edited July 30, 2022 by Fat is a type of crazy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hummin Posted July 30, 2022 Share Posted July 30, 2022 15 minutes ago, mauGR1 said: That's an interesting observation, and i agree with your conclusion. So if people have education and money, they don't need god and they clinch to materialism. Unfortunately i don't think that materialistic culture is doing a lot of good to the world in general. I like to refer to “everthing has its point where good ideology turn to bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mauGR1 Posted July 30, 2022 Share Posted July 30, 2022 3 minutes ago, Fat is a type of crazy said: You may know this but your language suggest you don't. I am no scientist but but think of cells just replicating in different ways. It seems that we are into a circular argument. So life created itself just to survive eh. Let's say that i don't believe that as true. The fact that you don't see a reason for life to exist and evolve, apart from mere survival, is no evidence that there's no other reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KhunLA Posted July 30, 2022 Share Posted July 30, 2022 (edited) 49 minutes ago, Hummin said: You are a privileged white man who have everything you need, and as you state, you do not need any fairytale figure to be thankfull for everything you got, neither do you pray for forgiveness or change in your life. For poor people, people who feel lost, need a meaning to explain all the horrible things going on in the world, it is different, they search for something or some to comfort them that everything is going to be ok, and also the need of someone who can listen to their story and their problems. Where we come from we have or many have resources to go to a shrink who can do exactly the same. Sometimes it takes a little bit understanding and empathy to understand simple things. You and me are privileged with choices Far from privileged white man. Born into poverty to 2 addicted parents (alcohol & tobacco), actually lazier than myself with no self respect for themselves or real ability or should have even been allowed to have children. I've eaten Govt cheese ... nuff said there about not knowing hardship. Actually given a choice to continue church / Sunday school when about 5 or yrs old, but older brother voted no, so if he didn't go, neither could I. Enjoyed the stories and social aspect of it. Presbyterian, so not hell fire exposure, especially at the un-sinful age. Didn't become a Christian until 19-20 ish, through a group, separate from any organized church. Also exposed heavily to Mormons through some other friends. Man, they could cook some & bakeries, must be a requisite for the women. I'd call myself an agnostic believer vs skeptic = extremely ignorant. Then after much research, realized it was all BS. Now I'm hard core Atheist, and when someone state they are a believer, it takes a bit of my respect for their intelligence away. Edited July 30, 2022 by KhunLA 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hummin Posted July 30, 2022 Share Posted July 30, 2022 14 minutes ago, mauGR1 said: Most of what you say though, is just theory. It has not been proven, and most likely it won't be. Do you dismiss science? If intelligent design, it doesn’t mean evolution is not possible or necessary for life evolving on this planet or elsewhere in the universe. If intelligent design, Im sure they would se the benefits of lifeforms that easily adopt to constant new changes in living conditions. Scientific understanding requires both facts and theories that can explain those facts in a coherent manner. Evolution, in this context, is both a fact and a theory. It is an incontrovertible fact that organisms have changed, or evolved, during the history of life on Earth. And biologists have identified and investigated mechanisms that can explain the major patterns of change. https://ncse.ngo/evolution-fact-and-theory Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mauGR1 Posted July 30, 2022 Share Posted July 30, 2022 9 minutes ago, Hummin said: I like to refer to “everthing has its point where good ideology turn to bad. That's fair enough.. So materialism doesn't make you privileged, it's just that you and many others have chosen that ideology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hummin Posted July 30, 2022 Share Posted July 30, 2022 1 minute ago, KhunLA said: Far from privileged white man. Born into poverty to 2 addicted parents (alcohol & tobacco), actually lazier than myself with no self respect for themselves or real ability or should have even been allowed to have children. I've eaten Govt cheese ... nuff said there about not knowing hardship. Actually given a choice to continue church / Sunday school when about 5 or yrs old, but older brother voted no, so if he didn't go, neither could I. Enjoyed the stories and social aspect of it. Presbyterian, so not hell fire exposure, especially at the un-sinful age. Man, they could cook some & bakeries, must be a requisite for the women. Didn't become a Christian until 19-20 ish, through a group, separate from any organized church. Also exposed heavily to Mormons through some other friends. I'd call myself an agnostic believer vs skeptic = extremely ignorant. Then after much research, realized it was all BS. Now I'm hard core Atheist, and when someone state they are a believer, it takes a bit of my respect for their intelligence away. As said, god works on mysterious ways ???????? But now we are privileged? Again, it was a simple and maybe to simple statement I tried to explain something that move people to believe or not believe in something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mauGR1 Posted July 30, 2022 Share Posted July 30, 2022 3 minutes ago, Hummin said: Do you dismiss science? Nope, so where's the missing link between the apes and the humans? Answer: still looking ???? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hummin Posted July 30, 2022 Share Posted July 30, 2022 2 minutes ago, mauGR1 said: That's fair enough.. So materialism doesn't make you privileged, it's just that you and many others have chosen that ideology. I have not chosen materialism, I believe that comes from our genetic memory being collectors and never ever get enough, and now we do not collect to survive anymore, we collect to self realise our self, gain status and women Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KhunLA Posted July 30, 2022 Share Posted July 30, 2022 4 minutes ago, Hummin said: As said, god works on mysterious ways ???????? But now we are privileged? Again, it was a simple and maybe to simple statement I tried to explain something that move people to believe or not believe in something. I got it. But ignorance is only Bliss for so long. Eyes got to open up sooner or later ... though saying that, apparently not for far too many. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mauGR1 Posted July 30, 2022 Share Posted July 30, 2022 3 minutes ago, Hummin said: I have not chosen materialism, I believe that comes from our genetic memory being collectors and never ever get enough, and now we do not collect to survive anymore, we collect to self realise our self, gain status and women Well, you speak for yourself, and from what you say, i don't have doubts that you have chosen materialism. But i am ok with that, in fact most people think in the same way, including Thailand and other poor countries, which may be poorer in possessions, but richer in humanity. Just try to smile at strangers in usa or Europe ...???? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hummin Posted July 30, 2022 Share Posted July 30, 2022 13 minutes ago, mauGR1 said: Nope, so where's the missing link between the apes and the humans? Answer: still looking ???? Horse and donkey Tiger and lion? I thought they found the missing link, but read now it is a controversial one. From which specie do you see as human or human cousin related? How far back? https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg22229643-200-human-missing-link-fossils-may-be-jumble-of-species/ The Marroccan homo sapiens they found is dated to 315 000 years ago, and moved the beginning of homo sapiens with more than 100k years. We might have older traces out there as well. Also an interesting read if you have time https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/essential-timeline-understanding-evolution-homo-sapiens-180976807/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mauGR1 Posted July 30, 2022 Share Posted July 30, 2022 4 minutes ago, Hummin said: Horse and donkey Tiger and lion? I thought they found the missing link, but read now it is a controversial one. From which specie do you see as human or human cousin related? How far back? https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg22229643-200-human-missing-link-fossils-may-be-jumble-of-species/ The Marroccan homo sapiens they found is dated to 315 000 years ago, and moved the beginning of homo sapiens with more than 100k years. We might have older traces out there as well. Also an interesting read if you have time https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/essential-timeline-understanding-evolution-homo-sapiens-180976807/ Before going further, do you think that carbon dating is reliable? As far as i know it's not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hummin Posted July 30, 2022 Share Posted July 30, 2022 3 minutes ago, mauGR1 said: Before going further, do you think that carbon dating is reliable? As far as i know it's not. Thats a good question but I believe it is as accurate we can get it and Im aware of the creation movement disagreement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mauGR1 Posted July 30, 2022 Share Posted July 30, 2022 I find more and more hilarious how people ridicule faith, and then put their blind faith in anything with the "science" label on it. Nothing new under the sun. There's a difference between science and what is labelled "science ". As they say, follow the money, and don't forget your critical thinking in the bar ???? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sunmaster Posted July 30, 2022 Share Posted July 30, 2022 40 minutes ago, KhunLA said: Now I'm hard core Atheist, and when someone state they are a believer, it takes a bit of my respect for their intelligence away. And there it is....that annoying condescension so widespread among the materialists. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mauGR1 Posted July 30, 2022 Share Posted July 30, 2022 4 minutes ago, Hummin said: Thats a good question but I believe it is as accurate we can get it and Im aware of the creation movement disagreement. Just do your research, the answers are very clear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hummin Posted July 30, 2022 Share Posted July 30, 2022 3 minutes ago, mauGR1 said: I find more and more hilarious how people ridicule faith, and then put their blind faith in anything with the "science" label on it. Nothing new under the sun. There's a difference between science and what is labelled "science ". As they say, follow the money, and don't forget your critical thinking in the bar ???? Well you have those who ridicule faith, and you have those who ridicule science, and do not forget those who ridicule faith and science, as well those who embrace both faith and science. Did I forget anything or anyone? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sunmaster Posted July 30, 2022 Share Posted July 30, 2022 2 minutes ago, Hummin said: Well you have those who ridicule faith, and you have those who ridicule science, and do not forget those who ridicule faith and science, as well those who embrace both faith and science. Did I forget anything or anyone? Yes, you forgot those whose beliefs are not based on faith, but on direct experience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hummin Posted July 30, 2022 Share Posted July 30, 2022 2 minutes ago, mauGR1 said: Just do your research, the answers are very clear. No its not, I bet you see what you want to see. There is also other methods to cross check time and place. This is a response alike if climacchange is real or not ???? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mauGR1 Posted July 30, 2022 Share Posted July 30, 2022 1 minute ago, Hummin said: Well you have those who ridicule faith, and you have those who ridicule science, and do not forget those who ridicule faith and science, as well those who embrace both faith and science. Did I forget anything or anyone? Is it clear to you the difference between science and what is labelled science? I never ridiculed science, but the name science is far too often used to deceive the people. Sorry to say, but you're being deceived ???? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hummin Posted July 30, 2022 Share Posted July 30, 2022 Just now, Sunmaster said: Yes, you forgot those whose beliefs are not based on faith, but on direct experience. Yes, true, and I had true experiences but I had doubts, and I found the explanation could be in my brain only, and therefor my experience in my universe. But I do not deny anyone else had such experiences, and analyses them different. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hummin Posted July 30, 2022 Share Posted July 30, 2022 1 minute ago, mauGR1 said: Is it clear to you the difference between science and what is labelled science? I never ridiculed science, but the name science is far too often used to deceive the people. Sorry to say, but you're being deceived ???? I find that as a ridiculously personate insult ???? And the most simple accusation of me ever on this fora! Did you come to short? I can livecwith that, I have read alot of your statements and what you statecas facts, and would have chosen my words more carefully if I was you ???????? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mauGR1 Posted July 30, 2022 Share Posted July 30, 2022 1 minute ago, Hummin said: No its not, I bet you see what you want to see. There is also other methods to cross check time and place. This is a response alike if climacchange is real or not ???? Yeah right. I guess you believe also that the government is working for your well being, and all the scientists work for the glory of knowledge and wisdom. Good luck with that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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