Democracy vs Corruption: the Thanathorn debate

[webfact]

Democracy vs Corruption: the Thanathorn debate

By Tulsathit Taptim 
The Nation

 

 

As expected, the fight between angelic Democracy and demonic Corruption in the aftermath of the Thai election has intensified in terms of ferociousness, irony and paradox.

 

The “Angel” has pointed to the fate of Future Forward leader Thanathorn Juangroongruangkit as proof that he alone embodies the best political system, whereas the “Demon” insists that the Thanathorn controversy is being muddied by the holier-than-thou camp, which is unknowingly killing its own argument.

 

Corruption has identified the presence of Western diplomats and activists monitoring legal action against Thanathorn as hypocrisy of the highest order.

As usual, Corruption has asked Democracy to stop pretending, and make a pact with him in order to rule the world together.

 

The following is a record of their latest verbal showdown:

 

Corruption: Would America allow non-American observers to be present during its investigation of Edward Snowden?

 

Democracy: That argument is starting to bore me now. Don’t you have anything else to say?

 

Corruption: When one says he is tired of one line of argument, chances are he can’t beat it.

 

Democracy: It’s different. Edward Snowden has been and will always be interrogated under a democratic system. Thanathorn is being persecuted under a dictatorship. Shall we move on?

 

Corruption: Because Snowden is in a democratic country, his interrogation can be private? And because Thanathorn is being interrogated under a dictatorship, the legal action should be transparent? I’m confused. Are you saying that a democratic interrogation does not need to be transparent, while a dictatorial interrogation does?

 

Democracy: I’m saying that we have less to worry about when it comes to a democratic interrogation.

 

Corruption: Let me rephrase my question, then. What would be more democratic – the closely monitored Thanathorn interrogation or a behind-closed-doors questioning of Snowden?

 

Democracy: You want to trap me and make me say the closely monitored Thanathorn interrogation, right? Why don’t you give credit to the Western observers for making the Thanathorn action more transparent than the Snowden affair? 

 

Corruption: Why should I give credit to the people who don’t give a damn about the Snowden affair?

 

Democracy: Why are you so thick? The Snowden case has been taken by elected authorities or those appointed by elected authorities. In other words, the action is according to the will of the American people.

 

Corruption: I’m pretty sure a lot of actions taken by elected representatives did not accord with the American people’s will. Did they want them to invade Iraq? And don’t be rude. I may be thick, but I’m not delusional. I never pretend to be good or try to put other people down to achieve my goals.

 

Democracy: Sorry about the “thick” slip. All I’m saying is I may not be perfect but I’m the best you can find.

 

Corruption: All I’m saying is if hypocrisy is the best people can get, then they will sooner or later try to find something else. I’m giving you a solid chance of survival. Join me, end all doubts about your pretentiousness and we can rule this world together. Trust me, people love “sincere” bad more than “fake” good.

 

Democracy: Are you saying I will be better off by proclaiming I can cheat, kill and jail or torture people on national security charges?

 

Corruption: You have done much of that already, albeit under pretexts or blatant lies that are unravelling with each passing day. Go on pretending and you will crumble like the Roman Empire. Stop pretending and both of us will have a good chance.

 

Democracy: You can’t just go and tell the world that elections will facilitate cheating and the killing or torture of innocent people. The world order will come tumbling down.

 

Corruption: The world order is a mess already. We just go and tell the world what it really is. We can start by informing the world that the United Nations is a farce.

 

Democracy: Wait a minute. Don’t tell me you want to make a deal with the UN, too?

 

Corruption: Why not? It’s the most undemocratic organisation ever to take on the guise of democracy. Tell me one thing: If the UN is a democratic institution, why do a handful of countries hold veto powers?

 

Democracy: But there would be anarchy unless countries with the greatest firepower have some sort of control.

 

Corruption: Is that kind of thinking being applied in many parts of the world? That to prevent an anarchy, people with firepower should have some sort of control? Just for argument’s sake, what is the difference between the veto power and the Thai Senate’s ability to block or endorse a prime ministerial nominee?

 

Democracy: As I have told you. There are more eyes at the UN. Moreover, the system may not be perfect but it is currently as good as we can get.

 

Corruption: So, which one is more democratic and as good as we can get – the many-eyed UN trying to block America’s planned invasion of Iraq, or America ignoring the UN and invading Iraq anyway? If one side is democratic, the other must be the opposite, right?

 

And the World, Heaven and Hell  continue to hold their breath…

 

Source: http://www.nationmultimedia.com/detail/opinion/30367799

 

-- © Copyright The Nation 2019-04-17

[impulse]

I think the OP is confusing Democracy with Kleptocracy.

 

The former has never been seen in LOS.

 

Edit:  I hope I'm to be proven wrong, and this guy is a true statesman.  But then he'll come under the Elites' "silver or lead" incentive program and either he'll knuckle under to the silver incentives, or be found in his driveway one night, full of lead.

 

[Odysseus123]

Very,very confusing...

 

Is it some sort of joke?

[leeneeds]

The current democracy is all about confusion, no truths will be allowed to be fully seen if they are involved with power, muddy the waters, deflect and deny, or just out right ignore  the problem and refuse to answer questions on that particular subject.

 

Now the powerful have to think about all the votes FFP received genuinely, freely 

by so many,  Very carefully !

[YetAnother]

1 hour ago, webfact said:

As expected, the fight between angelic Democracy and demonic Corruption in the aftermath of the Thai election has intensified in terms of ferociousness, irony and paradox.

among the thinking , perhaps; too small a minority, with no real power,  here

[PatOngo]

Democracy vs GREED, and the winner is...………………..!

[LomSak27]

1 hour ago, webfact said:

Corruption: Would America allow non-American observers to be present during its investigation of Edward Snowden?

Was Big Ed Snowden running for Senate, and or, the US Presidency?!  ???? Sometimes I feel like I am out of touch, living over here.

 

Looks like with the Thai Democratic party tanking, and maybe about to go hooves up, the cheerleading squad is panicking in a major way. Nothing better to do than pretend other countries are intruding on Thailand, Thainess, and Thai Democracy,  then whip up the Nationalistic Outrage. Or at least try to. WooHoo!     

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Farrows3399]

This is in process of a political implosion. The only question is how it ends. 

[Denim]

What on earth are they smoking at The Nation ?  Have they chucked out the Thai sticks and got hold of some skunk ?

You have to be high on something to produce a garbled nonsense article like that.

 

[boonrawdcnx]

I think the author is a bit confused - there is no “Thanathorn debate” It is very clear to the rest of the world that the charges against him are totally unfounded - brought by an illegitimate government that came to power by illegal means - it is that simple!

 

In fact in any civilized country lending support to a pro-democracy activist who stands up to a dictatorship would land you a Medal of Honor not a prosecution.

But the author does not understand that otherwise he would have spoken out during the last 5 years when he watched the systematic dismantling of free speech and other democratic values in this country!

Try to spin it whichever way you want and in good Thai fashion try to lay the blame on everybody else.

It is very telling that the author and many others find the attendance of diplomats questionable but not the ridiculous charges and questionable legal proceedings against Thanathorn.

 

Then an endless rant and comparisons with UN the US is all he can come up with.

I was lucky enough to grow up in a really democratic European country and only when we travel to un-democratic countries we realize the value of democracy and the rule of law!

 

Of course the author would not know that because he has never lived in a real democracy where the rule of law applies to all without exception.

 

I think the author has to learn that a countries standing on the world stage is not measured by what lying, cheating politicians or wannabe dictators churn out - but what a country contributes to the international community at non-governmental levels in terms of culture, inventions, peaceful interaction and support, social contributions, academic interactions e.g. and in that perspective Thailand has very little to contribute to the world - hence it is a nobody on the international stage.

The current Thai government and it’s sable rattling is like the bully from a small village who moves to a large city and suddenly finds out that without his reputation preceding him he is suddenly a nobody and nobody is afraid of him - because nobody outside his village is aware that he is a bully.

Only when this bully sees his chance in the new environment and realizes that he has to change and become a valuable contributing member of the community he will be accepted and embraced! Pretending to be the “tough guy” gets him nowhere!

 

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

 

 

[kingstonkid]

Yes, it is confusing but it does bring up a couple of good points.

 

Right now the US (Dems) are all up in arms about other countries meddling or being involved in their elections.  While not to the same extent the diplomats that went to the police station were doing the same thing.

 

As to the UN it has never been nor will ever be a democratic or on a corrupt organization.

 

Look at the countries that get kickbacks.  Look at the ability of Large countries to say listen vote for this and we will give you that.

 

The fact that any one of a handful of countries can say no and genocide happens and is allowed.

 

Imagine if Syria did not have Russia supporting it  Could they gas people.

 

 

 

[scorecard]

5 hours ago, Odysseus123 said:

Very,very confusing...

 

Is it some sort of joke?

 Agree, The article is a bit too complex, to convince anybody of anything much better / much more successful to use valid, realistic, easy to quickly understand simple examples.

 

I do agree with the basic argument aimed at the Thai people:

 

•  Do you want democracy, or
•  Do you want corruption?

 

The obvious point being as long as corruption continues (and it's still massive in the LOS and many of the candidates just elected are long-term champions of corruption, just biding their time until the trough opens again) and you support / allow / don't fight corruption then you are killing any chance of democracy quickly developing or even slowly developing. 

 

 

[candide]

Complete BS article as could be expected from the author. He tries to write something original and it's a big fail. It relies on a comparison of cases that are not comparable, and avoids the critical issues by focusing on a ridiculous controversy.

 

[sammieuk1]

With the Songkran festivities now over has anyone checked the water barrel's and rivers for mysterious political suicides now imminent ????

[Eric Loh]

Democracy is a political system and corruption is a social ill. Usual Taptim attempt at obfuscation. Fact is there are better chance of eradicating corruption with democracy. 

[LomSak27]

40 minutes ago, kingstonkid said:

Right now the US (Dems) are all up in arms about other countries meddling or being involved in their elections.  While not to the same extent the diplomats that went to the police station were doing the same thing.

That is totally and completely a different issue entirely.

 

 However good move to bring it up. Perhaps you can deflect.  Worth a try as everything else is turning rancid.

[rickudon]

Democracy - you can con most of the sheep, most of the time, but there is a limit, because when unified, they are stronger.

 

Corruption - who cares what the sheeple think? We are wolves!

 

Obviously the truth is a bit more complex. Politics is all about power and money, Just different ways to get it.

[scorecard]

49 minutes ago, Eric Loh said:

Democracy is a political system and corruption is a social ill. Usual Taptim attempt at obfuscation. Fact is there are better chance of eradicating corruption with democracy. 

 

But not when the folks who make up political parties are highly corrupt and often at the same time making totally false claims about building democracy. 

 

 

[Baerboxer]

58 minutes ago, Eric Loh said:

Democracy is a political system and corruption is a social ill. Usual Taptim attempt at obfuscation. Fact is there are better chance of eradicating corruption with democracy. 

 

Only in a real democracy Eric, in which the judicial system is independent, fair to all, and free from interference and threat. And where the majority of politicians respect and obey the law and parliamentary process.

 

Not where billionaires, military officers, elite hisos etc control their own factions, think they are above all laws and processes and can do as they please; threaten, intimidate, or sack judges or change laws to suit themselves on a whim.

 

Democracy is far more than a political system. 

[Srikcir]

7 hours ago, webfact said:

the many-eyed UN trying to block America’s planned invasion of Iraq, or America ignoring the UN and invading Iraq anyway?

Just a technical point:

U.N. Resolution 1483 was passed 14-0 by the 15-member Security Council May 22 (Syria abstained) to legitimize the U.S-led Iraqi occupation. https://www.cfr.org/backgrounder/iraq-un-role

There was no "anyway."

[Eric Loh]

21 minutes ago, scorecard said:

 

But not when the folks who make up political parties are highly corrupt and often at the same time making totally false claims about building democracy. 

 

 

You still missing the point. The people decide and that’s democracy. You making motherhood statement and not fully comprehend the democratic process of the people’s right to decide their future until the next election. 

[Eric Loh]

29 minutes ago, Baerboxer said:

 

Only in a real democracy Eric, in which the judicial system is independent, fair to all, and free from interference and threat. And where the majority of politicians respect and obey the law and parliamentary process.

 

Not where billionaires, military officers, elite hisos etc control their own factions, think they are above all laws and processes and can do as they please; threaten, intimidate, or sack judges or change laws to suit themselves on a whim.

 

Democracy is far more than a political system. 

I think you mis-interpreted the meaning of real democracy. What you meant was elite dominated representative system. A real democracy is a direct and participatory democracy. 

 

In the context of Thailand, it’s certainly true that the powerful and wealthy have played a decisive part in politics. Those factions that have the power to intervene and overthrow elected governments and change charters and laws arbitrarily are the bigger threat. Elected governments have less of that kind of power. 

 

 

[scorecard]

21 minutes ago, Eric Loh said:

You still missing the point. The people decide and that’s democracy. You making motherhood statement and not fully comprehend the democratic process of the people’s right to decide their future until the next election. 

Give over el, nobody is saying that the people have the right to decide, that's absolutely true and it's also true there are plenty of unethical ruthless folks who take advantage of that for their own pocket and power. 

[Srikcir]

Outside of Thailand democracy vs corruption is clear:

"people clearly feel 'the system' is less corrupt in countries with a stronger democracy."

https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2019-01-30/countries-that-promote-democracy-have-lower-levels-of-corruption

[scorecard]

1 hour ago, Eric Loh said:

I think you mis-interpreted the meaning of real democracy. What you meant was elite dominated representative system. A real democracy is a direct and participatory democracy. 

 

In the context of Thailand, it’s certainly true that the powerful and wealthy have played a decisive part in politics. Those factions that have the power to intervene and overthrow elected governments and change charters and laws arbitrarily are the bigger threat. Elected governments have less of that kind of power. 

 

 

 

Quote:  "...What you meant was elite dominated representative system. ..."

 

I didn't say or allude to anything like that el, jut your, as usual attempt to twist what people say. Just you unethical twists. 

[natway09]

When Thailand is ready for democracy (whatever that is) I will let you know !!

[Roadman]

1 hour ago, Eric Loh said:

You still missing the point. The people decide and that’s democracy. You making motherhood statement and not fully comprehend the democratic process of the people’s right to decide their future until the next election. 

The point you keep missing and have ever since you have been on this site is the people decide an election outcome which is only part of a democratic process. The then elected representatives are required to comply to the statues and laws as written which is another part of a democratic process. It is not democracy when the elected representatives are not following those processes and are controlling the police, the AG, and threatening the legal systems conveyors and having their paid thugs kill any who disagree with their corrupt methods. Under those circumstances democracy has no chance to correct any illegal governance as that governance is not even applying democracy. 

[Donutz]

3 hours ago, Bipolar said:

(...) Asia does not need the west anymore. The colonial days are over and these nasty bandits who robbed asia and delayed its progress, should be kicked out and boycotted. If these western diplomats were really so sincere, why they did nothing in the beginnings of the coup? What did the leader of the fast forward party promise them? Hope that he is not going to trade anything at the costs of the thai people or the country. The government should reign in these western diplomats or better still, expel them. (...).

Are you trolling? Thailand has sent diplomats to observe abroad too. Thar doesn't equal intervening.  And basic human rights such as a fair trial are a global, humanist thing,  would not call it the West boxing the East around. And when it comes to basic human global principles yes any country including Asia/Thailand would be in it's right to observe and point out failure of other stares to abide these things.

 

And where are you getting the buying/offering of positions from? That's old style Thai politics by maffia like hiso people of various parties. So far all evidence points to FFP breaking away from such BS , and the young seem to have embraced this change of cours. 

[Becker]

4 hours ago, Bipolar said:

While I might disagree with some of the ways that the army and the current govt had mishandled certain economic and social policies, they did try their best and its not right to simply blame them for everything.

Did their best??? At what? If you mean securing their place at the trough by rigging the whole election process and having all senators appointed by the themselves then they did a sterling job.

If you mean that they actually tried to make Thailand a better place then you must be one of the most naive persons around (or fresh off the boat).

[Odysseus123]

5 hours ago, Becker said:

Did their best??? At what? If you mean securing their place at the trough by rigging the whole election process and having all senators appointed by the themselves then they did a sterling job.

If you mean that they actually tried to make Thailand a better place then you must be one of the most naive persons around (or fresh off the boat).

In his original (non edited) post "Bipolar" stated that he was Thai.

 

If that is true than his post provides an excellent indication of what Thai right wing nationalists actually think...

 

Support of the army.

Claims that "farang" are taking over (unnamed) media sites and corrupting "the people"

Hatred of any form of foreign "intervention" 

Demands that any foreigner objecting to anything should go home.

Visceral dislike of any form of democracy that is not guided or controlled by the "good people"