metisdead Posted April 17, 2019 Share Posted April 17, 2019 Please use discretion in your references to the government. Phrases which can be considered as anti-coup will be removed. Referring to Thailand or the government as a dictatorship, military dictatorship or other such terms will be removed, read more here: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pornprong Posted April 18, 2019 Share Posted April 18, 2019 21 hours ago, scorecard said: But not when the folks who make up political parties are highly corrupt and often at the same time making totally false claims about building democracy. The folks who make up political parties are less corrupt and more democratic than the junta. Why is it that you condemn the pro-democracy side for the twigs in their eye whilst ignoring the logs in the juntas'? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pornprong Posted April 18, 2019 Share Posted April 18, 2019 19 hours ago, natway09 said: When Thailand is ready for democracy (whatever that is) I will let you know !! Who will you let know? The 87 pro-democracy citizens killed by the military in 2010 or the 52 pro-democracy citizens killed by the Thai military in 1992 or the 46 pro-democracy citizens killed by the Thai military in 1976 or the 71 pro-democracy citizens killed by the Thai military in 1973 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hansnl Posted April 18, 2019 Share Posted April 18, 2019 On 4/17/2019 at 9:42 AM, boonrawdcnx said: I think the author is a bit confused - there is no “Thanathorn debate” It is very clear to the rest of the world that the charges against him are totally unfounded - brought by an illegitimate government that came to power by illegal means - it is that simple! In fact in any civilized country lending support to a pro-democracy activist who stands up to a dictatorship would land you a Medal of Honor not a prosecution. But the author does not understand that otherwise he would have spoken out during the last 5 years when he watched the systematic dismantling of free speech and other democratic values in this country! Try to spin it whichever way you want and in good Thai fashion try to lay the blame on everybody else. It is very telling that the author and many others find the attendance of diplomats questionable but not the ridiculous charges and questionable legal proceedings against Thanathorn. Then an endless rant and comparisons with UN the US is all he can come up with. I was lucky enough to grow up in a really democratic European country and only when we travel to un-democratic countries we realize the value of democracy and the rule of law! Of course the author would not know that because he has never lived in a real democracy where the rule of law applies to all without exception. I think the author has to learn that a countries standing on the world stage is not measured by what lying, cheating politicians or wannabe dictators churn out - but what a country contributes to the international community at non-governmental levels in terms of culture, inventions, peaceful interaction and support, social contributions, academic interactions e.g. and in that perspective Thailand has very little to contribute to the world - hence it is a nobody on the international stage. The current Thai government and it’s sable rattling is like the bully from a small village who moves to a large city and suddenly finds out that without his reputation preceding him he is suddenly a nobody and nobody is afraid of him - because nobody outside his village is aware that he is a bully. Only when this bully sees his chance in the new environment and realizes that he has to change and become a valuable contributing member of the community he will be accepted and embraced! Pretending to be the “tough guy” gets him nowhere! Sent from my iPhone using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app You grew up in a really democratic country? In Europe? Where was that? And when? Democracy in nearly all countries in Europe has been degraded to a periodic voting circus, after which the sitting cliques in tandem with big money and companies continue running the country. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dumbastheycome Posted April 18, 2019 Share Posted April 18, 2019 Nothing in the article was an attempt to convince as I read it. To me it was a clever enough illustration of the naive polarization of political persuasion. Graft and corruption exists regardless. That reality is that one side it is devilishly blatant and on the other angelically disguised which makes no honest difference in effect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric Loh Posted April 18, 2019 Share Posted April 18, 2019 21 minutes ago, Dumbastheycome said: Nothing in the article was an attempt to convince as I read it. To me it was a clever enough illustration of the naive polarization of political persuasion. Graft and corruption exists regardless. That reality is that one side it is devilishly blatant and on the other angelically disguised which makes no honest difference in effect. No difference in effect but certainly difference in consequence. One side was and is being pursued with indictments, assets confiscation, political bans, party dissolution etc while the other side was and still is untouchable and out of reach by the law. Honestly the author should labeled the article "democracy vs corrupt coup". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boonrawdcnx Posted April 18, 2019 Share Posted April 18, 2019 You grew up in a really democratic country? In Europe? Where was that? And when? Democracy in nearly all countries in Europe has been degraded to a periodic voting circus, after which the sitting cliques in tandem with big money and companies continue running the country. Sent from my iPhone using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric Loh Posted April 18, 2019 Share Posted April 18, 2019 2 minutes ago, boonrawdcnx said: Sent from my iPhone using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app For those who whine about the failures of democracy. "If you have time to whine and complain about something then you have the time to do something about it". Anthony J D'Angelo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted April 18, 2019 Share Posted April 18, 2019 This article seems like a textbook example of "Whataboutism." Democracy is not a binary system. It involves a series of tensions over inclusion, participation, and dialogue. And yes, the handling of the Snowden situation raises questions about the limits of democratic openness. That's why many Americans are skeptical of their own government's aggressive policies (that Snowden revealed) and its aggressive pursuit of Snowden (e.g., applying the Espionage Act). But Americans raising such objections aren't charged with criminal defamation, disqualified from elections, accused of "sedition," etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Odysseus123 Posted April 18, 2019 Share Posted April 18, 2019 19 minutes ago, GrumblesMcGee said: This article seems like a textbook example of "Whataboutism." Democracy is not a binary system. It involves a series of tensions over inclusion, participation, and dialogue. And yes, the handling of the Snowden situation raises questions about the limits of democratic openness. That's why many Americans are skeptical of their own government's aggressive policies (that Snowden revealed) and its aggressive pursuit of Snowden (e.g., applying the Espionage Act). But Americans raising such objections aren't charged with criminal defamation, disqualified from elections, accused of "sedition," etc. Quite correct-democracy is not about a binary system but of a plurality of power systems competing on their own terms and merits. The "binary" approach to intellectual thought (via dialogue) in the West was last used in the early Renaissance and even then it was perceived as an elaborate jest. There is echoes of this practice in Boccaccio and later Cervantes and Bunyan. Therefore I view the OP s an elaborate joke-but definitely not an intellectual one. The fact that neither the Thai or many posters on TVF can get past a binary intellectual system leaves food for thought and encourages "whataboutism" as the sole sort of refutation to any form or dialogue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donutz Posted April 18, 2019 Share Posted April 18, 2019 What a strange article. Hypocrisy versus Corruption would have been much better labels. It is common for diplomats to observe trials, especially those deemed politically motivated or in troubled countries where there is a thing or 2 to say about rule of law. The Thai have sent observers to neighbouring Burma. As for the US (which definitely is not a prime example of democracy , transparency and fair rule of law) , there too it should have been okay for foreign diplomats to observe. And the UN, despite all good intentions, isn't the most smooth and fair running institution either. But that is what we do in a just world, keep on commenting on how to make things better and more fair. So this so called 'democracy' entity in the article is making some very silly arguments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bapoboy Posted April 18, 2019 Share Posted April 18, 2019 On 4/17/2019 at 9:42 AM, boonrawdcnx said: I think the author is a bit confused - there is no “Thanathorn debate” It is very clear to the rest of the world that the charges against him are totally unfounded - brought by an illegitimate government that came to power by illegal means - it is that simple! In fact in any civilized country lending support to a pro-democracy activist who stands up to a dictatorship would land you a Medal of Honor not a prosecution. But the author does not understand that otherwise he would have spoken out during the last 5 years when he watched the systematic dismantling of free speech and other democratic values in this country! Try to spin it whichever way you want and in good Thai fashion try to lay the blame on everybody else. It is very telling that the author and many others find the attendance of diplomats questionable but not the ridiculous charges and questionable legal proceedings against Thanathorn. Then an endless rant and comparisons with UN the US is all he can come up with. I was lucky enough to grow up in a really democratic European country and only when we travel to un-democratic countries we realize the value of democracy and the rule of law! Of course the author would not know that because he has never lived in a real democracy where the rule of law applies to all without exception. I think the author has to learn that a countries standing on the world stage is not measured by what lying, cheating politicians or wannabe dictators churn out - but what a country contributes to the international community at non-governmental levels in terms of culture, inventions, peaceful interaction and support, social contributions, academic interactions e.g. and in that perspective Thailand has very little to contribute to the world - hence it is a nobody on the international stage. The current Thai government and it’s sable rattling is like the bully from a small village who moves to a large city and suddenly finds out that without his reputation preceding him he is suddenly a nobody and nobody is afraid of him - because nobody outside his village is aware that he is a bully. Only when this bully sees his chance in the new environment and realizes that he has to change and become a valuable contributing member of the community he will be accepted and embraced! Pretending to be the “tough guy” gets him nowhere! Sent from my iPhone using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app Where is Nigel farage medal to stand up to the EU dictatorship?? Thailands “democracy” and EUs “democracy” is literally the same shit.. European countries should be independent and democratic just like New Zealand,Australia,US and Canada period! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jip99 Posted April 18, 2019 Share Posted April 18, 2019 23 minutes ago, bapoboy said: Where is Nigel farage medal to stand up to the EU dictatorship?? Thailands “democracy” and EUs “democracy” is literally the same shit.. European countries should be independent and democratic just like New Zealand,Australia,US and Canada period! Was that a "plus" for Nigel ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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