Thailand Elite Superiority Extension 20 Years

[vibration]

I am a British Citizen at present living in Udonthani (approx 15 years) on a Retirement Visa Extension and will be getting later this year a Thailand Elite Superiority Extension valid for 20 years (5 year renewable Tourist Visas x 4).

 

To be able to get my present Single Non-O Visa and Retirement Visa Extension cancelled I plan to travel to Singapore (Thai Airways) to stay one night from Suvarnabhumi Airport and be met by the Thailand Elite meet and greet staff both during departure from Suvarnabhumi Airport and return to Suvarnabhumi Airport with my Thai wife.

 

When I check in with Thai Airways at Changi Airport in Singapore I will no longer have a valid Visa to stay in Thailand and I will also not have a return Ticket from Thailand so my question is will I be allowed to board the flight to Thailand?

 

I plan to take with me documentation (approval letter for 20 year Thailand Elite Superiority Extension, confirmation email for the meet and greet service at Suvarnabhumi Airport, etc) proving that I will be getting the first of four 5 year renewable Tourist Visas in my Passport.

 

Many thanks in advance for any help.

[steven100]

Ubonjoe is the best person to answer your question ..... wait for his reply soon.

[ubonjoe]

Thai should recognize your documents from Thai Elite and allow you to board your flight back to here. If they do ask to see a ticket out you  could ask for supervisor to get them to accept the Thai Elite paperwork.

Have you considered just doing a border hop at the bridge in Nong Khai for a visa exempt entry and then make an appointment to get your visa in Bangkok at Chaeng Wattana immigration.

[jackdd]

Wouldn't it be easier to just fly to Bangkok, get the Thai Elite visa, fly back to Udon Thani and make a hop over the border at Nong Khai before your current retirement extension ends?

[ubonjoe]

3 minutes ago, jackdd said:

Wouldn't it be easier to just fly to Bangkok, get the Thai Elite visa, fly back to Udon Thani and make a hop over the border at Nong Khai before your current retirement extension ends?

Immigration cannot issue a PE visa with a valid extension of stay. That is why he has to leave and re-enter the country to get a visa exempt entry.

[SEtonal]

Be aware that airport officials now view people with suspicion if they are only staying in the country for one night.  A poster here was questioned and chewed out in Malaysia.  The Norwegian woman in the video  was detained and questioned after she declared that she was only staying in New Zealand one night.  Both were allowed to stay and you shouldn't have any problem once you explain your situation.

 

Buy a cheap airline ticket to prove onward travel and throw it away when you get back to Thailand.

 

https://youtu.be/ZZWnKcvm5EI?t=244

[vibration]

1 hour ago, ubonjoe said:

Thai should recognize your documents from Thai Elite and allow you to board your flight back to here. If they do ask to see a ticket out you  could ask for supervisor to get them to accept the Thai Elite paperwork.

Have you considered just doing a border hop at the bridge in Nong Khai for a visa exempt entry and then make an appointment to get your visa in Bangkok at Chaeng Wattana immigration.

Many thanks Ubonjoe and all others for all help.

 

I did consider doing a border hop however the thought of having to go to Chaeng Wattana to get the Visa as opposed to a nice one night stay in Singapore with the Thai Elite meet and greet service at Suvarnabhumi Airport and getting the Visa at Suvarnabhumi Airport made me go for the latter option.

 

To be even more on the safe side I will contact Thai Airways and see if they can put a message when I book the tickets that can be read by Thai Airways in Singapore explaining why I do not need a return ticket from Thailand.

[Ashto]

6 hours ago, ubonjoe said:

Thai should recognize your documents from Thai Elite and allow you to board your flight back to here. If they do ask to see a ticket out you  could ask for supervisor to get them to accept the Thai Elite paperwork.

Have you considered just doing a border hop at the bridge in Nong Khai for a visa exempt entry and then make an appointment to get your visa in Bangkok at Chaeng Wattana immigration.

Last year I flew same day Bangkok Singapore Bangkok and collected my PE that way. I stayed in the airport at Singapore, not bothering to enter. I relied on visa exempt in both countries in any event. 

 

I had had a ticket out of Thailand for a later date but no one asked to see it. 

[BuckBee]

Is one of those scenarios with no clear rule, good chance no issue with elite paperwork evidence but I would have a cheap ticket online booking plan as belt and braces backup ...

[OzMan]

5 hours ago, SEtonal said:

Buy a cheap airline ticket to prove onward travel and throw it away when you get back to Thailand.

 

Buy a full fair economy and get a refund when you are back in BKK.

[Letseng]

I was once asked in Singapore at TG check in for ticket out of Thailand. I had a non-O multi entry.

The guy after a bit of discussion accepted that I didn't need one.

All depends on the person processing you.

 

[davidst01]

Im sure you have an old PDF airline ticket. download a free 'Pdf to word' converter. Create your own ticket with realistic plane / flight numbers. Its free

[AAArdvark]

2 hours ago, davidst01 said:

Im sure you have an old PDF airline ticket. download a free 'Pdf to word' converter. Create your own ticket with realistic plane / flight numbers. Its free

The OP is spending a million baht for his visa and you want him to do an illegal and dangerous stunt like that?  A couple thousand baht and he can get a real return ticket.

[atyclb]

concerned about having an onward ticket i also obtained one when going to vietnam but they never asked to even see it.  thailand will be a decent place to visit in the near future

[richard_smith237]

The Singaporeans are very officious, so it would be good to have a letter from Thai Elite indicating that you will be receiving a Visa upon arrival and that your Visa Status is secure. 

 

That said - You could also purchase a fully refundable onward ticket and once in Thailand refund the ticket. 

 

And finally. I'm a Thai Elite member, but only got the Membership due to lack of viable alternatives in my early 30's (not married at the time, and not of retirement age). 

Thus, curiosity gets the better of me. Why would you get a Thai Elite Visa for 1MB (or 2 MB?). When the retirement Visa is a good option for a retiree?

 

[fouryesrs]

2 hours ago, richard_smith237 said:

The Singaporeans are very officious, so it would be good to have a letter from Thai Elite indicating that you will be receiving a Visa upon arrival and that your Visa Status is secure. 

 

That said - You could also purchase a fully refundable onward ticket and once in Thailand refund the ticket. 

 

And finally. I'm a Thai Elite member, but only got the Membership due to lack of viable alternatives in my early 30's (not married at the time, and not of retirement age). 

Thus, curiosity gets the better of me. Why would you get a Thai Elite Visa for 1MB (or 2 MB?). When the retirement Visa is a good option for a retiree?

 

they have marriage visas I think...that also applies to younger people as well as business visas...

[humbug]

4 hours ago, richard_smith237 said:

The Singaporeans are very officious, so it would be good to have a letter from Thai Elite indicating that you will be receiving a Visa upon arrival and that your Visa Status is secure. 

 

That said - You could also purchase a fully refundable onward ticket and once in Thailand refund the ticket. 

 

And finally. I'm a Thai Elite member, but only got the Membership due to lack of viable alternatives in my early 30's (not married at the time, and not of retirement age). 

Thus, curiosity gets the better of me. Why would you get a Thai Elite Visa for 1MB (or 2 MB?). When the retirement Visa is a good option for a retiree?

 

i can fully understand the op and other people wanting a 20 year visa in 4 stages of 5 year visas, which with 12 month extensions can work out to be 24 years. paying up front, beats any future inflation of prices over the next 24 years. and retirement visas are only 12 months, which means you have to consider the stress factor of living, thats important, if you make your home somehow, you need to relax and not have the anxiety of every 12 months of not knowing, its stressful for many with these nationalists, also retirement is not cheap, 400k left untouched for 12 months and 800k untouched for 5 months, is no longer a cheap option, and over the next 20-24 years financial requirements will rise a lot too. so having a visa which gives you a more stable outlook, at a cost upfront, instead of costing much more in other ways is something people will do. making new lives in this country for many years will cost now, and partly down to the nationalists, but also visas and stress were never an issue 10 years ago, there are now on this land

[Mike Teavee]

41 minutes ago, humbug said:

i can fully understand the op and other people wanting a 20 year visa in 4 stages of 5 year visas, which with 12 month extensions can work out to be 24 years. paying up front, beats any future inflation of prices over the next 24 years. and retirement visas are only 12 months, which means you have to consider the stress factor of living, thats important, if you make your home somehow, you need to relax and not have the anxiety of every 12 months of not knowing, its stressful for many with these nationalists, also retirement is not cheap, 400k left untouched for 12 months and 800k untouched for 5 months, is no longer a cheap option, and over the next 20-24 years financial requirements will rise a lot too. so having a visa which gives you a more stable outlook, at a cost upfront, instead of costing much more in other ways is something people will do. making new lives in this country for many years will cost now, and partly down to the nationalists, but also visas and stress were never an issue 10 years ago, there are now on this land

Though the Visa validity is 5 years, you're only "Stamped-In" for 1 year so doing a border hop before the last of the 5 year Visas is up, will only extend it by 1 years so you'll get 21 years.

 

To the OP, I'm from the UK but work in Singapore & before I got my Non-O (> 50) would often use 1-way tickets to Thailand, I would say that I got asked for the return more times than not (always when going to the Philippines, rarely when going to Malaysia), but I think you will have no problem showing them your evidence from TE & if worse comes to the worse, they should have a waiver form for you to sign that identifies the airline from any costs in you being refused entry.

 

Could you check in online, print your boarding pass & not bother with the check-in desks (Departure immigration is just a check of Ticket name against passport & you will use your thumbprint to exit SG).

[humbug]

1 hour ago, Mike Teavee said:

Though the Visa validity is 5 years, you're only "Stamped-In" for 1 year so doing a border hop before the last of the 5 year Visas is up, will only extend it by 1 years so you'll get 21 years.

 

To the OP, I'm from the UK but work in Singapore & before I got my Non-O (> 50) would often use 1-way tickets to Thailand, I would say that I got asked for the return more times than not (always when going to the Philippines, rarely when going to Malaysia), but I think you will have no problem showing them your evidence from TE & if worse comes to the worse, they should have a waiver form for you to sign that identifies the airline from any costs in you being refused entry.

 

Could you check in online, print your boarding pass & not bother with the check-in desks (Departure immigration is just a check of Ticket name against passport & you will use your thumbprint to exit SG).

no, no way, completelly different process to a 12 month re-apply for retirement. on the elite you can re-enter thailand and receive another 12 months, no documents or embassy visits, if you want to stay for 5-20 years you go to cw and hand over a few photocopies of your passport and 1900 baht and get another 12 months, then after 5 years you get an appointment, go with a rep, and they put the next 5 year visa in your passport. the elite is much more a retirement visa now than the over 50's visa.because of how the nationalists have destroyed the illusion of grandfathering and ,not worrying about anything every 12 months when you have to re-apply, which now can include house visits and up to 2-3 office visits to have it granted, that is no longer a stress free way of life to live in a country, which is down to the nationalists, because 5-10 years ago it was stress free

[Mike Teavee]

28 minutes ago, humbug said:

no, no way, completelly different process to a 12 month re-apply for retirement. on the elite you can re-enter thailand and receive another 12 months, no documents or embassy visits, if you want to stay for 5-20 years you go to cw and hand over a few photocopies of your passport and 1900 baht and get another 12 months, then after 5 years you get an appointment, go with a rep, and they put the next 5 year visa in your passport. the elite is much more a retirement visa now than the over 50's visa.because of how the nationalists have destroyed the illusion of grandfathering and ,not worrying about anything every 12 months when you have to re-apply, which now can include house visits and up to 2-3 office visits to have it granted, that is no longer a stress free way of life to live in a country, which is down to the nationalists, because 5-10 years ago it was stress free

I agree with almost everything you said (especially the fact that it's rapidly becoming a better alternative to the "Retirement Visa"), but where we disagree is whether you can get 24 years or 21 years out of it.

 

When you get the last (4th) 5 year Visa, that's the end of it Visa Wise (they will still extend your stay & you still get airport benefits during the final 5 years)... To get any more than 5 years out of the final Visa you have to exit/re-enter the country just before it expires & then you'll get another 1 year permission to stay (Which is what you get on every entry/extension on the 5 year visa) hence it's 21 years.

 

FWIW I'm following this & all other TE threads closely as I'm seriously considering moving to it when my Non-O is due for extension in July.... 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited April 18, 2019 by Mike Teavee

[vibration]

8 hours ago, richard_smith237 said:

The Singaporeans are very officious, so it would be good to have a letter from Thai Elite indicating that you will be receiving a Visa upon arrival and that your Visa Status is secure. 

 

That said - You could also purchase a fully refundable onward ticket and once in Thailand refund the ticket. 

 

And finally. I'm a Thai Elite member, but only got the Membership due to lack of viable alternatives in my early 30's (not married at the time, and not of retirement age). 

Thus, curiosity gets the better of me. Why would you get a Thai Elite Visa for 1MB (or 2 MB?). When the retirement Visa is a good option for a retiree?

 

First many thanks to all for great help.

 

I have decided to get a fully refundable onward ticket from Thailand to the UK and then when I get my Thai Elite Visa I will get the money back, I will aso get necessary documentation from Thai Elite to show in Singapore just in case.

 

My reasons for getting the 20 Year Extension for 1 million THB (50000 THB/year) are as follows:

 

• I can thank God afford it, for me it is less than half of one months monthly pension based on a bad exchange rate.
• I have experienced and learned that Immigration Officers can make up their own rules and can ruin a persons life or cause significant hassle and stress, I believe that this type of Visa will limit this significantly.
• I am 65 soon and have had 20 years of terrible stiffness problems and stress so I want to use now every opportunity to have a happy, stress free comfortable life (the unlimited meet and greet service for international flights and fast track certainly helps with this).
• I am a Dowser and it pendles that my soul still desires for me to be in this class room (Mother Earth) after I am 85 years of age (each to their own in what one believes of course and I realise that this may sound crazy to some).
• I like discounts and a lot are provided with this Visa.
• I dont like going to Immigration Offices so now I will not have to do this for the next 20 years (my wife will do the 90 day reports for me).
• The present new Retirement Extension laws locks between 400000 and 800000 in a Thai Bank for 365 days, I now have the freedom of using this money as I see fit.
• I believe the laws will continuously change or be changed by the will of the Immigration Officer and I do not want that stress any more.
• If my dear wife passes before me when I have a Marriage Visa Extension I can still stay here with no stress.

Good luck to all with your Visa Extensions.

 

My 2 Cents

[Ratt Thai]

28 minutes ago, vibration said:

First many thanks to all for great help.

 

I have decided to get a fully refundable onward ticket from Thailand to the UK and then when I get my Thai Elite Visa I will get the money back, I will aso get necessary documentation from Thai Elite to show in Singapore just in case.

 

My reasons for getting the 20 Year Extension for 1 million THB (50000 THB/year) are as follows:

 

• I can thank God afford it, for me it is less than half of one months monthly pension based on a bad exchange rate.
• I have experienced and learned that Immigration Officers can make up their own rules and can ruin a persons life or cause significant hassle and stress, I believe that this type of Visa will limit this significantly.
• I am 65 soon and have had 20 years of terrible stiffness problems and stress so I want to use now every opportunity to have a happy, stress free comfortable life (the unlimited meet and greet service for international flights and fast track certainly helps with this).
• I am a Dowser and it pendles that my soul still desires for me to be in this class room (Mother Earth) after I am 85 years of age (each to their own in what one believes of course and I realise that this may sound crazy to some).
• I like discounts and a lot are provided with this Visa.
• I dont like going to Immigration Offices so now I will not have to do this for the next 20 years (my wife will do the 90 day reports for me).
• The present new Retirement Extension laws locks between 400000 and 800000 in a Thai Bank for 365 days, I now have the freedom of using this money as I see fit.
• I believe the laws will continuously change or be changed by the will of the Immigration Officer and I do not want that stress any more.
• If my dear wife passes before me when I have a Marriage Visa Extension I can still stay here with no stress.

Good luck to all with your Visa Extensions.

 

My 2 Cents

Vibration,

I am a 20 year TE member.

The only paper you need to have on you is the welcome letter from Thailand elite and the appointment letter that you will receive the Visa sticker upon arrival.

The welcome letter you will receive after the payment made and verified, containing all data and ID nr about your membership privileges and benefits.

 

Thailand Elite is well organised and does provide all the documents that are needed and well in advance.

Don't worry, just be happy and enjoy.

I agree on all you above mentioned reason's and i add: the comforting feeling not need to worry about visa's anymore is priceless.

 

Grtz and welcome in the club of no worry's

[humbug]

3 hours ago, Mike Teavee said:

I agree with almost everything you said (especially the fact that it's rapidly becoming a better alternative to the "Retirement Visa"), but where we disagree is whether you can get 24 years or 21 years out of it.

 

When you get the last (4th) 5 year Visa, that's the end of it Visa Wise (they will still extend your stay & you still get airport benefits during the final 5 years)... To get any more than 5 years out of the final Visa you have to exit/re-enter the country just before it expires & then you'll get another 1 year permission to stay (Which is what you get on every entry/extension on the 5 year visa) hence it's 21 years.

 

FWIW I'm following this & all other TE threads closely as I'm seriously considering moving to it when my Non-O is due for extension in July.... 

 

 

 

 

 

yes you can, as for example if my visa stamp is dated 12th april 2020, as the last date of the present 5 year visa, then you can re-enter before this date and receive the 12 months, in my case it was 3 months, and my io had to just make sure with her superior at cw, as she was unsure, but it was an affirmitive yes, because in effect you are still in the programme for 20 years, so it means when you then have to get a new 5 year visa after your last extension date, but if there is a doubt, then coming to the expiry date, i am sure they will organize it at ghe imm desk at the airport for you, as you re-enter thailand, or have a rep go with you to cw to process it for you, as contacting them in advance could solve those doubts. so i can only confirm i got the 3 months more after the date, and the present ones it would 12 months extension, and i havent read any members on here who have been denied that request so far, 

[Mike Teavee]

1 minute ago, humbug said:

yes you can, as for example if my visa stamp is dated 12th april 2020, as the last date of the present 5 year visa, then you can re-enter before this date and receive the 12 months, in my case it was 3 months, and my io had to just make sure with her superior at cw, as she was unsure, but it was an affirmitive yes, because in effect you are still in the programme for 20 years, so it means when you then have to get a new 5 year visa after your last extension date, but if there is a doubt, then coming to the expiry date, i am sure they will organize it at ghe imm desk at the airport for you, as you re-enter thailand, or have a rep go with you to cw to process it for you, as contacting them in advance could solve those doubts. so i can only confirm i got the 3 months more after the date, and the present ones it would 12 months extension, and i havent read any members on here who have been denied that request so far, 

I think we're saying the same thing (i.e. You can get 21 years out of a 20 year membership) ???? 

[humbug]

7 minutes ago, Mike Teavee said:

I think we're saying the same thing (i.e. You can get 21 years out of a 20 year membership) ???? 

maybe closer to 23 years because your last 5 year visa would be around 17-18 years into the programme, if you extended the first 3,and so they would gove you the final 5 year visa which would take it through the 20 year, so in effect as you are inside the 20 year programme, they would still grant the visa, from my understanding on how it would work from my visa to the present ones, but that is something they can confirm, the only way they could go against is if they reduced the expiry date on the 5 year visa, as maybe they could, but i sm pretty sure you could benefit from for more than 21 years

[richard_smith237]

2 hours ago, vibration said:

First many thanks to all for great help.

 

I have decided to get a fully refundable onward ticket from Thailand to the UK and then when I get my Thai Elite Visa I will get the money back, I will aso get necessary documentation from Thai Elite to show in Singapore just in case.

 

My reasons for getting the 20 Year Extension for 1 million THB (50000 THB/year) are as follows:

 

• I can thank God afford it, for me it is less than half of one months monthly pension based on a bad exchange rate.
• I have experienced and learned that Immigration Officers can make up their own rules and can ruin a persons life or cause significant hassle and stress, I believe that this type of Visa will limit this significantly.
• I am 65 soon and have had 20 years of terrible stiffness problems and stress so I want to use now every opportunity to have a happy, stress free comfortable life (the unlimited meet and greet service for international flights and fast track certainly helps with this).
• I am a Dowser and it pendles that my soul still desires for me to be in this class room (Mother Earth) after I am 85 years of age (each to their own in what one believes of course and I realise that this may sound crazy to some).
• I like discounts and a lot are provided with this Visa.
• I dont like going to Immigration Offices so now I will not have to do this for the next 20 years (my wife will do the 90 day reports for me).
• The present new Retirement Extension laws locks between 400000 and 800000 in a Thai Bank for 365 days, I now have the freedom of using this money as I see fit.
• I believe the laws will continuously change or be changed by the will of the Immigration Officer and I do not want that stress any more.
• If my dear wife passes before me when I have a Marriage Visa Extension I can still stay here with no stress.

Good luck to all with your Visa Extensions.

 

My 2 Cents

 

All good reasons...  Without any doubt whatsoever the TE Visa will make handling your Immigration Status much much easier than the alternatives (Type O Visa based on Retirement) to the point of being virtually troubled free. Definitely a far more 'relaxing' approach. 

 

I wouldn't consider the discounts too much - Being a TE member for well over 10 years I can't think of a reasonable 'discount' I've used. 

The Hotel Discounts etc are usually bettered by Online Booking sites such as Agoda etc - Thai Elite are simply dressing things up a little there and really the discounts offer nothing. 

 

That said, the services, The Airport Fast Track Service, AOT transfers, Free Golf at select courses (you have to pay Caddy Fee), Massage (Thai Massage only) are all very useful. 

 

One 'perk' I do use yearly is the yearly free Medical Check Up - Definitely take advantage of this. I wouldn't be so inclined to spend 20k baht on a full medical check up otherwise.

[Mike Teavee]

10 minutes ago, humbug said:

maybe closer to 23 years because your last 5 year visa would be around 17-18 years into the programme, if you extended the first 3,and so they would gove you the final 5 year visa which would take it through the 20 year, so in effect as you are inside the 20 year programme, they would still grant the visa, from my understanding on how it would work from my visa to the present ones, but that is something they can confirm, the only way they could go against is if they reduced the expiry date on the 5 year visa, as maybe they could, but i sm pretty sure you could benefit from for more than 21 years

I think I get what you're trying to say... 

1. Visa 1 from 2020-2025
2. 2025 - Border bounce just before Visa 1 expires & get another year
3. 2026 - Get Visa 2 that you would have got in 2025...
4. Repeat for Visa 2, 3 & 4

... but I'm pretty sure it doesn't work that way, when you go to get Visa 2 they will start it from the expiry of your 1st Visa (not the date your extended permission to stay ends) & it will expire in 2030 not 2031...

 

Interesting idea though ???? 

 

[Mike Teavee]

4 minutes ago, richard_smith237 said:

 

All good reasons...  Without any doubt whatsoever the TE Visa will make handling your Immigration Status much much easier than the alternatives (Type O Visa based on Retirement) to the point of being virtually troubled free. Definitely a far more 'relaxing' approach. 

 

I wouldn't consider the discounts too much - Being a TE member for well over 10 years I can't think of a reasonable 'discount' I've used. 

The Hotel Discounts etc are usually bettered by Online Booking sites such as Agoda etc - Thai Elite are simply dressing things up a little there and really the discounts offer nothing. 

 

That said, the services, The Airport Fast Track Service, AOT transfers, Free Golf at select courses (you have to pay Caddy Fee), Massage (Thai Massage only) are all very useful. 

 

One 'perk' I do use yearly is the yearly free Medical Check Up - Definitely take advantage of this. I wouldn't be so inclined to spend 20k baht on a full medical check up otherwise.

You don't get the free Medical check-up with the 1Million 20 Year Elite Superiority Extension, but Fastrack immigration is worth 20K per year (That's exactly what I pay TLM for mine, without it I would have no hesitation in getting the TE).

 

[richard_smith237]

2 minutes ago, Mike Teavee said:

You don't get the free Medical check-up with the 1Million 20 Year Elite Superiority Extension, but Fastrack immigration is worth 20K per year (That's exactly what I pay TLM for mine, without it I would have no hesitation in getting the TE).

 

 

Ah... that is a shame... Do you get the Free Golf, Massage ??

 

& in that case do you get the AOT transfer included? If so, limited to 20 times per year (which I suspect is ok for most members). 

 

In fact - I'm a regular traveller (used the AOT Trx 9 times this year already) so I think 20 per year is  a decent limit. 

[humbug]

4 minutes ago, Mike Teavee said:

I think I get what you're trying to say... 

1. Visa 1 from 2020-2025
2. 2025 - Border bounce just before Visa 1 expires & get another year
3. 2026 - Get Visa 2 that you would have got in 2025...
4. Repeat for Visa 2, 3 & 4

... but I'm pretty sure it doesn't work that way, when you go to get Visa 2 they will start it from the expiry of your 1st Visa (not the date your extended permission to stay ends) & it will expire in 2030 not 2031...

 

Interesting idea though ???? 

 

it is interesting how they interpret the 20 year programme, do they say you have a maximum of 4* 5 year visas, so if you are in your 17th year, you get the 4th 5 year visa, even if it takes you over 20 years, or do they interpret that in your 17th year for example, your last visa can only be a 3 year validity, and then gain the extra 12 month extrnsion to make it 21years. its interesting how they interpret, as some members will leave and come back in the programme, or extend some visas past their initial expiration date. with the 23-24 years i am going on a more laxx aproach, but maybe it has the valudity only for a maximum of 20 years. thats something that would be interesting to be confirmed either way