After the Purge is Complete, Will CM be Better or Worse for Those Retirees Who Remain?

[RoadWarrior371]

33 minutes ago, malibukid said:

you sound like a lovely human being, are you American?

 

Say now, Not all Americans are Hansum Men swimming in cash.  Just a select group of us......  ????

[Rod the Sod]

18 hours ago, BritManToo said:

I would say exactly the opposite, the ones that I know who left have enough money to live where they like.

Only those of us stupid enough to have bought a house/wife/child and lacking enough to move them back to the west have stayed.

 

Don't know any really wealthy white guys that came to live here.

I am not really really wealthy but comfortable. My wife is Indonesian and I will not live in Jakarta (those who know Jakarta will not ask why) but I want to be with her in Asia. I trouble no-one, no-one troubles me so I just enjoy the best of what Thailand has, and ignore the rest. I travel, do my own thing and use Bangkok as my home base. I often think of where else I might be happier and everywhere has downsides. On balance this works for me now. If it changes I shall move on. I own my condo but whilst it s home now, it will become an investment if I leave. This was always the plan (60% growth in value in 4 years including FX - dedicated to all those who say never buy here). If you have no plan and just float along, well you will just keep bumping into things IMHO.

 

I don't know if I feel sad or amused at the people who flout the rules, but believe that Thailand should welcome them and tolerate them because they are no trouble and spend 7/6d a week at their local store. These are probably the same people that have flown close to the wind all their lives (have to look after myself mate!...rules are made to be broken!) and think they should be able to find their own corner and be left alone. It doesn't work like that guys so much nowadays, and so anyone here who complains about the Immigration requirements, just should not be here (except those good folk that come across stupid local interpretations when they have done everything right).

 

Compared to many countries around this area Thailand is quite grown up. I have just returned from Sri Lanka and the comparison is huge. Same with Vietnam, India, Cambodia and so on. 

 

Just count your blessings....Thailand is 100% through choice for me, and I bet there are hundreds more on this site who would agree, but stay quiet.

[sammieuk1]

On ‎4‎/‎18‎/‎2019 at 8:58 AM, Kelsall said:

Sorry, gang I know several and I don't know that many people overall.  People are leaving.

I will bail you out I will be going by the end of the year when my house contract is up not because of IMO but smog and having a 5 year old I would like to see grow up its been the worst I have seen here in 10 years and the few farangs I know have departed literally and I'm sure the air quality speeded up their departure????

[NancyL]

4 hours ago, wwest5829 said:

Yes, the number of attendees is down. However, the reason appears to be directly related to the air pollution numbers having been in the hazardous range. We will have to wait and see what the attendance is after the air clears to see if there are other reasons for lower attendance.

Bill, attendance at expats club meetings has always been seasonal.  Back when I was president, there were attendance records that dated since the founding of the club (presumably they have been maintained) and there is a clear seasonal pattern.  High attendance is in Jan-Feb with low attendance in March - May.  The decision was made near the start of the club not to have an April General Meeting because not enough Board members were around to arrange it.  

 

Dave maintains records of attendance at the breakfasts and they follow a definite seasonal pattern, also, although from my casual observation the numbers have held high this year.  The real test will be later this year.

 

I think that right now many expats are out of country exploring other options.  As I said earlier in the thread, the combination of immigration rules and air pollution is causing many to question if this really is the place they want to spend their retirement.  And, by in large, these are people who have enough money to meet the financial requirements of Thai immigration, but don't want to tie up their money in Thailand or risk making one mistake in a monthly transfer and having their application denied.

[Pravda]

4 hours ago, DonDoRondo said:

No that's not the truth.  I have plenty of money.  Too much intrusion in my life by the authorities. Air pollution.  First the tour buses from the mainland / then the snowflakes.

 

The banking requirement was the last straw....btw I pay 28K a month in rent / live pretty well, and still don't need 65k a month.

 

 

 

                                                                                                                                                                         

 

 

I think in this case you are the receiver.

[fantom]

Time for a cup of tea, a Bex and a good lie down.

 

[john ianson]

On 4/18/2019 at 9:54 AM, NancyL said:

I know several people who are leaving, but it's due to a combination of the changing immigration rules (i.e. not wanting to tie up their money in a Thai bank), the pollution and maybe the traffic. They've just had enough.  In every case, they are either expat/expat couples who were probably getting a little bored with Chiang Mai anyway, rented their homes and decided to try out a different location or single guys who have been here for just a few years and somehow avoided getting themselves tied down with a Thai girlfriend.  In those cases, the guys also still own homes in their home country and decided their little fling in Thailand was over.  

 

The ones who are living on the edge have cut their ties to their home country and/or are invested in Thailand with wives/GF, houses, etc and are jumping thru hoops figuring out how to stay.  Those are the ones who can end up in hospital with large bills they can't pay -- exactly the people the new rules were intended to drive out.  I wonder if the visa agents who "arrange" for these guys to stay will volunteer to pay their medical bills when it's discovered they really don't have 400,000 baht on deposit in a Thai bank or monthly income of 65,000 baht.

As long as the under the counter visas are still available the expats who scam to stay with no money will be ok but the honest ones with money are made to jump through hoops ! What is that telling us ?

[tlandtday]

That is one of the most arrogant misguided original posts I have seen on Thai Visa.  I think those leaving will likely be happier to get away from these attitudes.

Edited April 19, 2019 by tlandtday

[Ulic]

I believe Thai authorities are making a huge mistake. Expat retirees in Thailand bring in a huge amount of money. Even those on the marriage extension of stay at 400,000 baht are bringing in a big chunk of foreign currency. How many tourists spend 400,000 baht while in Thailand. The problem is the TAT is more interested in numbers and spend per day. That makes a Chinese tourist spending 6,000 baht a day, on a four-day junket a "high-quality" tourist. The TAT should be looking at total spend in Thailand not daily spend, but that doesn't play into there narrative of look what a great job we are doing. I don't know how the expat exodus from CM will make things better for those who stay other than maybe those who stay will be appreciated more, but just as likely is that they will be resented as part of the group that left, deserting Thailand and causing businesses to lose money. 

[tlandtday]

5 minutes ago, Ulic said:

I believe Thai authorities are making a huge mistake. Expat retirees in Thailand bring in a huge amount of money. Even those on the marriage extension of stay at 400,000 baht are bringing in a big chunk of foreign currency. How many tourists spend 400,000 baht while in Thailand. The problem is the TAT is more interested in numbers and spend per day. That makes a Chinese tourist spending 6,000 baht a day, on a four-day junket a "high-quality" tourist. The TAT should be looking at total spend in Thailand not daily spend, but that doesn't play into there narrative of look what a great job we are doing. I don't know how the expat exodus from CM will make things better for those who stay other than maybe those who stay will be appreciated more, but just as likely is that they will be resented as part of the group that left, deserting Thailand and causing businesses to lose money. 

Absolutely correct.  Those that will really suffer are the Thai families left behind who were supported by what the OP considers "impoverished undesirables".

[NoshowJones]

Thai immigration, or should I say the Thai government, will realise some day that the more expats and long time stayers that they chase away, the more their income stream will go down and they will find out that they will have to find ways to encourage expats and long term stayers to start coming here again.

While I'm here, what does OTOH stand for? Looks like we have another member of "the lazy typists brigade".

[john ianson]

On 4/18/2019 at 9:21 AM, Gecko123 said:

Things will so much better!!!

 

We'll no longer need to jump off the sidewalk at the approach of these ginormous, lumbering, Shrek-like, junk food subsisting creatures. We'll no longer need to carry handkerchiefs and bottles of menthol nose spray to mask the stench emanating from their unwashed armpits and crotches. Once this underclass has been purged from our midst, social relations between foreigners will dramatically improve because our confidence will be restored that those select few foreigners who remain will at least have met these higher minimum qualifications to be here.

 

I can hardly contain myself at the thought of all the condos which will be going on the market after the exodus happens. I'm planning on making a killing picking up these properties at fire sale prices!

 

And what about all these Thai women who were hooked up with these Cheap Charlies? They'll probably be looking for a new sugar daddy to latch onto, won't they? Let the Hunger Games begin! Ladies, I'm available! With all my money, I might even be able to have my very own harem!

 

Sure, there may be one or two skint friends who I'm probably going to miss, but other than that, all I see is upside, upside, and more upside! And to those people who worry about how those people who get deported will fare when they return home I say, don't you worry your pretty little head, they'll be just fine.

 

 

 

 

 

 

But I am sorry to inform you but the Shreck like smelly creatures will still be here because they have no money but pay extra to get dodgy visas , which I am told are still available ! So the more things change the more they stay the same and Big Joke maybe was affecting the money trail too much !

[Thingamabob]

Bye, bye.

[Krataiboy]

18 hours ago, Naam said:

being a German i don't consider myself "white". 

Because. . . 

[NoshowJones]

17 hours ago, MickeyDelux said:

This seems like a no-brainer. The folks who are knowingly and repeatedly breaking the immigration law are being 'purged' (using the OP's language) shouldn't be here in the first place. Chances are they are breaking other laws or are living in a manner dangerous to themselves or others. No doubt some are like parasites on unsuspecting or kind Thai's or Westerns. And what do they contribute to improve the quality of life of the community? Someone said they do their shopping at the small mom and pop stores which will miss their business once they're gone. Are you serious? This is a contribution? Having an income means I can support and improve my life and the life of my family. We live in and maintain a home, which supports the community and property values. We pay car tax, fuel tax, toll road tax, airfare tax which leads to improvements in the transportation infrastructure and jobs. We buy luxury goods which allows upscale property improvements such as shopping malls and requires international trade exchanges. We frequent fine dining restaurants which provide better job opportunities and pay for Thai people. Yes, we're only one household. But the Western who is living here in a cheap room, eating cheap food and wearing cheap clothes is really in need of help and not helping the economy. Please don't say you're living like a Thai. The Thai's that live in a cheap room, eat cheap food and wear cheap clothes are most likely trying to improve their situation or are in need of help themselves. The Western who has settled into this low lifestyle is showing the signs of mental illness.  And if you're living here and don't feel the need to be a contributing member of the community, then you should move to a place where you do. 

Your first two sentences are that much rubbish that I have not bothered to read the rest of your post.

There are lots of expats here who came when all they had to do was go to the border every 90 days, how did they know that the Thai government would stop all that? A lot of them bought houses, and took Thai families out of poverty, then were cheated by the visa rules being changed.

 

[Kelsall]

1 hour ago, possum1931 said:

Thai immigration, or should I say the Thai government, will realise some day that the more expats and long time stayers that they chase away, the more their income stream will go down and they will find out that they will have to find ways to encourage expats and long term stayers to start coming here again.

While I'm here, what does OTOH stand for? Looks like we have another member of "the lazy typists brigade".

Thaivisa is a social media forum on the internet, therefore people use abbreviations that all experienced internet users understand.  You can Google OTOH to find out what this common abbreviation means, unless you're a member of "the lazy typists brigade."

Edited April 19, 2019 by Kelsall

[NoshowJones]

56 minutes ago, john ianson said:

But I am sorry to inform you but the Shreck like smelly creatures will still be here because they have no money but pay extra to get dodgy visas , which I am told are still available ! So the more things change the more they stay the same and Big Joke maybe was affecting the money trail too much !

I wish someone would explain these "dodgy visas".

[NoshowJones]

51 minutes ago, Kelsall said:

Thaivisa is a social media forum on the internet, therefore people use abbreviations that all experienced internet users understand.  You can Google OTOH to find out what this common abbreviation means, unless you're a member of "the lazy typists brigade."

 

51 minutes ago, Kelsall said:

Thaivisa is a social media forum on the internet, therefore people use abbreviations that all experienced internet users understand.  You can Google OTOH to find out what this common abbreviation means, unless you're a member of "the lazy typists brigade."

I do not go along with that, abbreviations were made for people to text with on their phones, not for typists, if you are right and more and more abbreviations apart from the regular ones start appearing on Thaivisa, and I have to keep googling them, that is the time to cut down on how many posts to read, I won't mind if the abbreviations are for words that have already been used on that particular post or topic though.

I don't think we want another brigade for lazy typists like yourself.

[Cat ji]

Those [main] abbreviations/acronyms were around long before "SMS lingo."

[NCC1701A]

six pages of comments. time for a musical interlude:

 

 

[GeorgeCross]

2 hours ago, possum1931 said:

While I'm here, what does OTOH stand for? Looks like we have another member of "the lazy typists brigade".

 

on the other hand

[NoshowJones]

10 minutes ago, GeorgeCross said:

 

on the other hand

Just for you GeorgeCross.

 

[StevieAus]

4 hours ago, Rod the Sod said:

I am not really really wealthy but comfortable. My wife is Indonesian and I will not live in Jakarta (those who know Jakarta will not ask why) but I want to be with her in Asia. I trouble no-one, no-one troubles me so I just enjoy the best of what Thailand has, and ignore the rest. I travel, do my own thing and use Bangkok as my home base. I often think of where else I might be happier and everywhere has downsides. On balance this works for me now. If it changes I shall move on. I own my condo but whilst it s home now, it will become an investment if I leave. This was always the plan (60% growth in value in 4 years including FX - dedicated to all those who say never buy here). If you have no plan and just float along, well you will just keep bumping into things IMHO.

 

I don't know if I feel sad or amused at the people who flout the rules, but believe that Thailand should welcome them and tolerate them because they are no trouble and spend 7/6d a week at their local store. These are probably the same people that have flown close to the wind all their lives (have to look after myself mate!...rules are made to be broken!) and think they should be able to find their own corner and be left alone. It doesn't work like that guys so much nowadays, and so anyone here who complains about the Immigration requirements, just should not be here (except those good folk that come across stupid local interpretations when they have done everything right).

 

Compared to many countries around this area Thailand is quite grown up. I have just returned from Sri Lanka and the comparison is huge. Same with Vietnam, India, Cambodia and so on. 

 

Just count your blessings....Thailand is 100% through choice for me, and I bet there are hundreds more on this site who would agree, but stay quiet.

I will not stay quiet.

I agree.

[MickeyDelux]

exclusionist

19 hours ago, Gecko123 said:

And that attitude, folks, is why I have always been hesitant to live in a farang dominated enclave like Chiang Mai. This elitist, materialist, and exclusionist mindset sets in, attempting to marginalize anyone - foreigners and Thais alike - deemed to be unworthy. You think you're more deserving to be here than others? Keep dreamin', buddy. Probably a moot question: with your attitude, my guess is you won't be around long anyway.

Edited 19 hours ago by Gecko123

You're are entitled to your opinion. I choose to live differently than you and thankfully that is still allowed. What I truly enjoy about living here in Thailand is that with my humble income I'm able to help and improve the lives of people by spending money. What you call materialistic and exclusionistic , I see as giving back.  I've yet to hear anyone I've given money to as a gift or a business where I've made a purchase say they feel marginalized. Your thinking on the subject of money says a lot about you. I hope you can see that taking care of others is the best thing anyone can do in this life. I've been lucky enough to be living here for over 11 years while supporting a family (fyi - it isn't a farang family). We do a lot of traveling and while we've be to many nice places, ChiangMai even with it's smoke and the bitter farangs, is still our home. I hope you can find some peace in my words. God bless you.

[MickeyDelux]

On 4/19/2019 at 2:12 PM, possum1931 said:

Your first two sentences are that much rubbish that I have not bothered to read the rest of your post.

There are lots of expats here who came when all they had to do was go to the border every 90 days, how did they know that the Thai government would stop all that? A lot of them bought houses, and took Thai families out of poverty, then were cheated by the visa rules being changed.

The only thing that is constant is change - Heraclitus (c. 535 – c. 475 BCE)

[Caldera]

My biggest worry in Chiang Mai would be the pollution, and my expectation is that it will get worse, not better. Having to leave for immigration reasons might well be a blessing in disguise.

[CMNightRider]

5 hours ago, john ianson said:

As long as the under the counter visas are still available the expats who scam to stay with no money will be ok but the honest ones with money are made to jump through hoops ! What is that telling us ?

I think the elusive "under the counter visas" are right up there with UFO encounters.  How could expats with no money stay in Thailand with "under the counter visas" when Thai Immigration officers are known for their honesty, and ability to adhere to all the strict rules and regulations Thai Immigration has for foreigners.

 

The only stories I keep hearing over and over again, are about Thai Immigration officers rejecting one year visa extensions because of people not having 800,000 baht in a Thai bank or not having 65,000 baht transferred to a Thai bank monthly.  What is that telling us?

 

 

[JimGant]

On 4/18/2019 at 5:57 PM, BritManToo said:

Don't know any really wealthy white guys that came to live here.

Can't imagine that you would. Somehow I picture you as having multiple tattoos, maybe body piercings, probably on the nipples and navel. That you would hang out at the "club" with successful white guys is beyond the pale.

[Gecko123]

1 hour ago, MickeyDelux said:

You're are entitled to your opinion. I choose to live differently than you and thankfully that is still allowed. What I truly enjoy about living here in Thailand is that with my humble income I'm able to help and improve the lives of people by spending money. What you call materialistic and exclusionistic , I see as giving back.  I've yet to hear anyone I've given money to as a gift or a business where I've made a purchase say they feel marginalized. Your thinking on the subject of money says a lot about you. I hope you can see that taking care of others is the best thing anyone can do in this life. I've been lucky enough to be living here for over 11 years while supporting a family (fyi - it isn't a farang family). We do a lot of traveling and while we've be to many nice places, ChiangMai even with it's smoke and the bitter farangs, is still our home. I hope you can find some peace in my words. God bless you.

I'm grateful for the opportunity to engage in a more tempered dialogue with you.

 

The first thing I'd like to address is the idea that how much you consume somehow correlates with your social value or contribution. That is a very Western and archaic mindset. It certainly doesn't square well with Buddhist values. When you consider the environment alone, the exact opposite argument can be made: the less you consume, the greater your value. You're not driving around in a V-8 SUV spewing carbon emissions into the air, you're not dining on filet mignon steaks which are environmentally inefficient and wasteful, you're generating less plastic and toxic waste which pollutes the environment, you're home wasn't built with old growth teakwood, etc., etc. A heavy consumer also contributes to demand for goods and services and price inflation which puts a financial squeeze on those further down the food chain.

 

The second thing I think you fail to recognize is that having 'x' amount of money in the bank or showing 'x' amount of money coming into a bank account doesn't necessarily mean that someone who meets those requirements is actually spending any more than the next guy. It's entirely possible that someone who has 800K in the bank is spending less than someone who might be struggling to comply with the new immigration requirements. For example, someone might have bought a condo (worth more than your house) several years ago. They were fully and honestly able to comply with the once a year 800K financial requirement that was in place at the time they bought the condo. With a modest degree of frugality they were able to replenish the 800K each year, and in the near future they planned to start collecting a pension which would completely resolve this problem. So it's misguided to assume that those who meet these requirements are necessarily "contributing" or spending more than others.

 

A third thing which I would like to take you to task for is your insensitivity to the fact that sometimes life throws people unexpected curve balls, and your seeming lack of awareness that life might throw you a curve ball in the future as well. One divorce, medical problem, casualty loss, business failure, job loss, currency devaluation, stock market plunge, or slashing of entitlement program and you could easily find yourself in the same boat as the people you deem aren't worthy of being here. I'm not British, but I have a lot of sympathy for those who were hit with a 30% devaluation of the Pound. So showing a little empathy might be a smart hedge in the karma dept.

 

I'm not hanging on by my fingernails to stay here nor has my future ability to stay here been imperiled by anything immigration has done. Before moving here, I tried to consider every possible contingency I could think of that might effect my income: possible stock market, currency and interest rate change scenarios were endlessly evaluated in order to make sure I would be comfortable here. But when Thailand said it would let people over 50 or who had a family connection live here they induced people to put down roots, and implicity (if not explicitly) caused people to believe that that could stay here for the rest of their lives if they met those requirements. People made emotional and financial investments in Thailand which benefited the country enormously, and now, when many of those people who made those investments are older and more vulnerable, Thailand appears to be changing the criteria for living here in an abrupt, high-handed, and callous manner, effectively playing with people's lives.

 

It's one thing to say from now on everyone who is allowed to stay here has to meet such and such a criteria. No one would dispute Thailand's right to do that. But when criteria is imposed retroactively it can cause genuine dislocation in people's lives.

 

Adding insult to injury are this small gaggle of forum trolls who applaud immigration's actions, which is part of the reason why there was such a strong negative reaction to your post. My resentment is directed at immigration for their insensitivity to the retirement community, as well as directed at the handful of posters who amuse themselves by braying all day about how they are as yet unfazed by these changes. The operative words being 'as yet,' as who knows what changes await down the pike.

 

Just to circle back to my earlier point about how being a good consumer doesn't make you a good person, I'd like to just share the following and ask that you just consider exploring this perspective. I've lived here since 2003, and I have a very ample financial cushion. Nevertheless, there have been several periods of time (sometimes stretching into years) where I have practiced frugality. Sometimes it was done because the global economy looked like it was melting down, sometimes it was done because it looked like I might have to unexpectedly repatriate, and on at least one occasion it was done just to see what living on a tight budget similar to my neighbors would feel like. What I just want to share with you is that during those periods of frugality I often experienced a heightened sense of spirituality and humbleness which I feel was a blessing to have been able to experience.

Edited April 19, 2019 by Gecko123

[tlandtday]

On 4/18/2019 at 9:02 PM, MickeyDelux said:

This seems like a no-brainer. The folks who are knowingly and repeatedly breaking the immigration law are being 'purged' (using the OP's language) shouldn't be here in the first place. Chances are they are breaking other laws or are living in a manner dangerous to themselves or others. No doubt some are like parasites on unsuspecting or kind Thai's or Westerns. And what do they contribute to improve the quality of life of the community? Someone said they do their shopping at the small mom and pop stores which will miss their business once they're gone. Are you serious? This is a contribution? Having an income means I can support and improve my life and the life of my family. We live in and maintain a home, which supports the community and property values. We pay car tax, fuel tax, toll road tax, airfare tax which leads to improvements in the transportation infrastructure and jobs. We buy luxury goods which allows upscale property improvements such as shopping malls and requires international trade exchanges. We frequent fine dining restaurants which provide better job opportunities and pay for Thai people. Yes, we're only one household. But the Western who is living here in a cheap room, eating cheap food and wearing cheap clothes is really in need of help and not helping the economy. Please don't say you're living like a Thai. The Thai's that live in a cheap room, eat cheap food and wear cheap clothes are most likely trying to improve their situation or are in need of help themselves. The Western who has settled into this low lifestyle is showing the signs of mental illness.  And if you're living here and don't feel the need to be a contributing member of the community, then you should move to a place where you do. 

If that's an attempt at humour you are the laughing stock not your material. If this is an attempt at a rational argument then you are wading in the shallow end of a think tank. Move along nothing to see here.