Immigration police question ‘seasteader’

[snoop1130]

Immigration police question ‘seasteader’

By The Nation

 

 

Immigration police have questioned an American bitcoin investor who set up a floating “seasteading” structure off the coast of Phuket and is facing criminal charges related to the waterborne homestead, Deputy national police spokesman Colonel Krissana Pattanacharoen said on Friday.

 

However, he declined to elaborate.

 

Chad Andrew Elwartowski and his Thai girlfriend, Suprenee Thepdet (aka Nadia Summergirl), launched their seastead project on February 2 off the coast of Phuket. 

 

The floating structure is located to the south east of Koh Racha Yai, approximately 12 nautical miles from the mainland.

 

The Royal Thai Navy and Phuket Maritime personnel boarded the structure on Sunday, saying that it violates the law and poses a navigational hazard.

 

Elwartowski posted on his Facebook on Tuesday that he and his partner were in hiding and feared for their lives, as they were being hunted down by the authorities. He later deleted the post.

 

On Wednesday, Immigration police revoked his visa and put him on a blacklist following the legal suit.

 

Source: http://www.nationmultimedia.com/detail/national/30367967

 

-- © Copyright The Nation 2019-04-19

[anchadian]

USA vs France

 

http://www.thaipbsworld.com/prawit-orders-action-against-seasteading-settlement-off-phuket/

 

Prawit orders action against seasteading settlement off Phuket

• April 19, 2019

 

Deputy Prime Minister Prawit Wongsuwan has ordered the Royal Thai Navy and security agencies to take action against the planned seasteading settlement on the high seas off Phuket in accordance with international standards of practice and to ensure the protection of Thai natural resources.

Frenchman Chad Andrew Elwartowski and his Thai wife, Mrs.Nadia Summergirl, had erected a floating housing unit as part of his ambitious plan to build a sovereign seasteading settlement on the high seas about 22.2 km from Phuket’s Racha Island.

[snoop1130]

US Embassy helps citizen threatened with death penalty over ‘seastead’ off Phuket

By The Nation

 

Nadia and Elwartowski/Facebook's Chad Elwartowski

 

The United States Embassy in Bangkok is providing assistance to its citizen who was accused of violating Thailand’s sovereignty by building a “seasteading” structure off the coast of Phuket.

 

The US Embassy is aware of the reports that Thai authorities have charged US citizen Chad Elwartowski, said Robert Post, US Embassy Public Affairs Officer, on Friday.

 

“The Embassy is providing all appropriate assistance and understands Elwartowski has engaged an attorney,” Post told The Nation.

 

Elwartowski and his Thai girlfriend, Suprenee Thepdet (aka Nadia Summergirl), launched their seastead project on February 2 off the coast of Phuket. 

 

The floating structure is located to the southeast of Koh Racha Yai, approximately 12 nautical miles from the mainland.

 

The couple are facing charges of threatening the Kingdom’s independence after the Royal Thai Navy and Phuket Maritime personnel boarded the structure on Sunday and said that it violated criminal law and posed a navigational hazard. 

 

Meanwhile, Phuket deputy governor Supoj Rotreuang Na Nongkhai was preparing information to present to the embassy if it required a further explanation. 

 

While Elwartowski has claimed that his waterborne homestead is outside Thailand’s maritime boundaries, Thai authorities have insisted they its existence violated Article 119 of the Criminal Code because Thailand’s territorial rights were disturbed. 

 

According to the Siam Legal international law firm, “Section 119: Intent to cause injury to the nation” states that, “Whoever does any act with intent to cause the country or any part thereof to descend under the sovereignty of any foreign state, or to deteriorate the independence of the state, shall be punished with death or imprisonment for life.”

 

Authorities were eligible to persecute the group of people as the structure was within the Kingdom’s territory, Supoj said. 

 

“The harm was done because they had sent an invitation seeking people to set up [additional] structures and so far 14 people [have shown an] interest to join,” he explained.

 

Source: http://www.nationmultimedia.com/detail/breakingnews/30367972

 

-- © Copyright The Nation 2019-04-19

[otherstuff1957]

To those who have not spent much time at sea: The territorial limit of any country is 12 nautical miles (about 22km) from its shoreline or less if there is another country less than 24 nautical miles away.  In addition, counties have Exclusive Economic Zones that extend up to 300 nautical miles from their coast.  Anyone can transit through that zone freely under the Freedom of the Seas laws, but they cannot engage in commercial activities, like fishing, mining, salvage, etc., without getting permission from that country.

 

So, either the Thais are trying to claim that a spot 22 miles from their coast is part of their territorial waters, or they are defining "sea-steading" as a commercial activity.  

 

IMHO, the first interpretation would be rather dubious, but the second would probably be upheld in court.

[Dumbastheycome]

No doubt  "navigational hazard"  is legitimate. Will be interesting to  learn of  "territorial" issues stand up to  scrutiny. 

There is  international consensus on both territorial  and exclusive economic zones.

The  12 mile territorial boundary is excluded  for  international shipping lanes as an example.

The economic  zone does  not exclude  transit shipping but does exclude extraction of resources.

So perhaps "selling " an anchored spot  in that  zone is arguably stealing from it?

I am reminded of the days of "Pirate Radio" which challenged assumed thinking.

 

 I just  got  pipped as  in previous post. lol

[MeePeeMai]

So, if he has indeed been questioned (as reported but not elaborated on), then I am assuming that he would still be on Thai soil?

 

I don't believe that The Thai Immigration questions suspected criminals over the phone or via e-mail ... so if his Visa has been revoked and he has now been blacklisted then he might now be in their custody ....eh?

 

Either that or he fled to Burma or Malaysia and he has been question there (but I doubt it).  Wish we had more facts.

[balo]

34 minutes ago, MeePeeMai said:

Either that or he fled to Burma or Malaysia and he has been question there (but I doubt it).  Wish we had more facts.

Yes I find it odd, I would think maybe they have questioned him on phone or via the US embassy ? 

[metisdead]

An off topic trolling post has been removed. 

[Rama]

instead of making wais and asking for forgiveness for not understanding the law, he has chosen to try and make an incident out of it. Even if he 'won' in some international court (after many years) he will be blacklisted by immigration which would break off his access to his seastead. Not a very rational or thought out plan (but the seastead isn't either, and neither is 'investing' in bitcoins).

[MeePeeMai]

1 hour ago, balo said:

Yes I find it odd, I would think maybe they have questioned him on phone or via the US embassy ? 

Yea I guess it's possible that he ran the gauntlet and made it to the US Embassy in BKK.  If he did then he is one brave fellow (or one stupid fellow depending on how you view him).

[observer90210]

How about questionning those who built the structure ? Doubt that the guy, as smart as he may be (or not be) did it himself ?

[MeePeeMai]

26 minutes ago, Rama said:

neither is 'investing' in bitcoins).

 Seems like he did quite well investing in Bitcoin.  Early purchasers and miners who got in real early are multi millionaires now.  I wish I had bought a few thousand back when it was only a buck or two.

 

The price is $5250 right now.

 

[MekkOne]

32 minutes ago, observer90210 said:

How about questionning those who built the structure ? Doubt that the guy, as smart as he may be (or not be) did it himself ?

They already did, if you were reading information from a authoritative Journal you will also know that there is no 'his' as the dude was just a tenant that has been at the place for just a couple of weeks with the wife for make a advertisement video and all the informations are in the OCEAN BUILDERS WEBSITE

[balo]

1 hour ago, MekkOne said:

Journal you will also know that there is no 'his' as the dude was just a tenant that has been at the place for just a couple of weeks with the wife for make a advertisement video and all the informations are in the OCEAN BUILDERS WEBSITE

He is more involved than that for sure, he is the one answering messages on that website.  I am pretty sure he is one of the owners in this project, but where is the company registered?  

 

[balo]

Chad is the one behind this blog. 

 

https://ocean.builders/blog/

[PoorSucker]

He needs a multiple re-entry permit and report to the immigration every time he goes ashore, guess that could take a day each time, another day to process the TM30. 

 

Ohh, sorry you left Thailand but didn't enter another country, sorry no stamp for you. 

 

[Enoon]

7 hours ago, otherstuff1957 said:

 

So, either the Thais are trying to claim that a spot 22 miles from their coast is part of their territorial waters, or they are defining "sea-steading" as a commercial activity.  

 

 

 

The Thai government is interpreting the laws which apply to its Contiguous Zone (extant since 1995):

 

"Contiguous Zone:

The contiguous zone can be defined as the belt which extends 12 nautical miles beyond the territorial sea limit.

A coastal state’s control on this area is limited to prevention of actions which can infringe its customs, fiscal, and immigration laws. It can also act if any activity in the contiguous zone threatens regulations in the territorial sea."

 

5 Terms Every Mariner Should Know Under UNCLOS - Marine Insight

 

 

 

 

[Sealbash]

He needs a multiple re-entry permit and report to the immigration every time he goes ashore, guess that could take a day each time, another day to process the TM30. 
 
Ohh, sorry you left Thailand but didn't enter another country, sorry no stamp for you. 
 

I am not sure what Thai immigration rules are for this. I do know that if you fly out to any oil installation, even outside the 12 mile limit, you are not required to exit and enter through immigration. Perhaps this is satisfied by the transport company ( boat or helicopter) passenger manifests.


Sent from my iPad using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[scorecard]

7 hours ago, balo said:

Yes I find it odd, I would think maybe they have questioned him on phone or via the US embassy ? 

Agree, like:

 

- Where was the whole thing constructed?

- How did they get the structure to it's current locatIon?

- Is the main support embedded into the ocean sands?

- Is it connected by cable or chain to an anchor, and how did they get the anchor firmly into place?

 

[matador007]

9 hours ago, PoorSucker said:

He needs a multiple re-entry permit and report to the immigration every time he goes ashore, guess that could take a day each time, another day to process the TM30. 

 

Ohh, sorry you left Thailand but didn't enter another country, sorry no stamp for you. 

 

This is exactly the issue.  If he can get there from another Country, would be better.  Or better yet from USA direct.
So like if he had a yacht and sailed to there direct, Thailand less involved.
 

But for convenience sake, obviously short boat from shore makes sense.  So this is a definite issue of the sea-stead thing.

For an American, why not try this off a "warm" Coast like Southern California or Florida first... then no VISA issues.

 

Of all the issues raised, the safety factor for me is #1.  So must be some solar panels hooked up to an emergency safety light, so boats don't crash into it.  But if thats in place, lets see what next issues are.

 

Ideally you try to work with the closest Countries before launching a $150k test.  After the fact just puts a sour taste in negotiations, even if you are correct.

 

Good luck to all, hopefully a peaceful civil resolution can happen.

[Time Traveller]

While I support this guy's ideals and feel some sympathy for him, you have to wonder what the hell was he thinking?

Would he try that 12 miles off the coast from North Korea? Or China? Why did he think he would get away with it under this dictatorship?

Thailand is not a place where rule of law exists. I don't agree with it, but I can see the argument for the death penalty in this case. It would set a precendence to definitely save lives by deterring others from stupid haphazard constructions like this. 

 

[Srikcir]

16 hours ago, snoop1130 said:

Authorities were eligible to persecute the group of people as

... all Thai enforcement authorities under NCPO command can persecute anyone anywhere for anything proven or unproven under NCPO's absolute powers. To prosecute requires, however, a modicum of fair and an impartial judicial process.

 

[RickTik]

They gambled and lost. Hopefully, they are able to clear out of Thailand with their lives and freedom intact. 

[nauseus]

8 minutes ago, Srikcir said:

... all Thai enforcement authorities under NCPO command can persecute anyone anywhere for anything proven or unproven under NCPO's absolute powers. To prosecute requires, however, a modicum of fair and an impartial judicial process.

 

Don't think they would have stayed there long anyway. Looks bloody awful!

 

Image from BBC News

 

[Kerryd]

11 hours ago, MekkOne said:

They already did, if you were reading information from a authoritative Journal you will also know that there is no 'his' as the dude was just a tenant that has been at the place for just a couple of weeks with the wife for make a advertisement video and all the informations are in the OCEAN BUILDERS WEBSITE

Actually, if you actually looked into it, you would find that he (Chad Elwartowski) has been heavily involved in this project since at least last October. His Facebook claims he started working for Ocean.Builder last February but articles on the website dated to last October were authored by "elwar" who also is the one who responds to comments on the site.

As well, it is stated that he and Nadia would be providing "on site property management".

 

He is NOT "just a tenant". And the Ocean/Builder website is NOT an "authoritative Journal". 

They were planning on selling a lot of these seasteads and were going to offer the first 20 "at cost" (of $150,000 US each - built entirely in Thailand). That is a commercial venture.

Also, if you actually did some research you'd know this isn't the first time they've tried something like this. It seems they previously tried to do it in French Polynesia but for whatever reason (no suckers ?) ended up letting that one "drift away" before trying again in Thai waters.

 

Also, if you actually looked into it, you'd find all sorts of warning flags popping up. Like how they only want payment in Bitcoin (because other payment methods would create problems - like leaving traceable money trails and tax issues). You'd also notice that their website is set up to be as anonymous as possible, with no addresses or business locations noted, no mention of CEOs/Board of Directors or any other details that might reveal details about who they really are (and where they are really operating from). 

Any information requires you to send them a message through their website (so you can't see an email address). They can then decide if they want to respond or not.

Note that it appears their website is registered in Panama as well. Home to a number of companies that specialize in creating "numbered companies" with no way of finding out who actually controls them (unless hackers manage to steal a large hunk of data and publish it like they did back in 2015).

Their "environmental plan" is to dump all their raw sewage into the ocean "where all the whale and dolphin poop goes" (which they say right on their site). But hey ! They are looking into growing edible seaweed too ! 

As for their other garbage, they claim they'll bag it and transport it to shore for disposal. You know. In the country that they think shouldn't have any say in what they do, but they expect to provide them with garbage disposal, shopping, airports, etc. Yeah right. "Oops, sorry darling. Wave knock all garbage bags into ocean." "Darn, that's the 6th time in the last 6 days that has happened ! Sure hope they float far away before spilling their contents into the ocean."

And you can bet they'd expect Thailand to rescue them of course when the next storm comes along that capsizes/sinks all their seasteads. They claim the average waves in the area (off the coast of Phuket) are only .5 meters. This is the same area hit by the tsunami in 2004 and the same (general) area where the storm last July capsized a number of tourist boats including the Phoenix where 49 people died.
(Note that they make no mention of any emergency procedures or safety equipment.)

I wouldn't put a single baht towards this venture and there are probably a lot of people out there that have been saved from losing a fortune. 

 

[Longcut]

All this is fine and good. I find it rather amusing. 

 But, does Thailand really think they would get away with putting this guy to death and suffer no consequences to Thailand?

[AI5AASIA]

7 hours ago, Sealbash said:

I am not sure what Thai immigration rules are for this. I do know that if you fly out to any oil installation, even outside the 12 mile limit, you are not required to exit and enter through immigration. Perhaps this is satisfied by the transport company ( boat or helicopter) passenger manifests.


Sent from my iPad using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

Deep sea fishing trips must come under a similar agreement 

[yellowboat]

If had started a casino and only invited elitist inverters,  he would be rolling in Bit coin now. 

[connda]

14 hours ago, Rama said:

Even if he 'won' in some international court (after many years) he will be blacklisted by immigration which would break off his access to his seastead.

Even if he 'won' in some international court (after many years) he will be blacklisted by immigration which would break off his access to his seastead... via Thailand.

 

This is bleeding edge stuff.  However, just like few envisioned Bitcoin, even fewer probably see the future in sovereign seastead communities.  But my guess is that as statists become more and more authoritarian, and as principles of Liberty, Fraternity, and Equality along with rule of law are trampled underfoot, there will be a subset of the population who will take to the new frontier.  Those people will be maligned, reviled, cursed, critized, condemned, and called 'crazies' and 'loons' by those who can only envision their reality as being one in which their actions are controlled, cradle to grave, by The State.  But - it's here.  A new paradigm.  A new frontier.

So this is the first of the birth pangs.  New and novel ideas are seldom born of complacency.  And just as frontiersmen and frontierswomen faced hardships and the unknown, so will these new travelers who journey to edge of the last frontier - The Sea - and seek to carve out independent lives.  

[Tradewind777]

You can’t fight city hall, even by going offshore. If you do, better get a good navy behind you