denied at bkk, waiting in detention

[natway09]

So you showed them a lease agreement which made him smile & think

"I was right, he is living here"

Get your house in order we have been warned for 3 years now

[myshem]

how is the food ? and bed ?

 

 

[BobBKK]

Reading through this is a terrible situation but you really deserve it. 'Travelling' but living in BKK lease and all?  cummon

[Formaleins]

I think in all of these  instances where entry is denied we need to make a database"

Nationality

Passport

Cultural Appearance

 

anyone add any other charateristics?

 

I am sure there will be a pattern

[richard_smith237]

7 minutes ago, Formaleins said:

I think in all of these  instances where entry is denied we need to make a database"

Nationality

Passport

Cultural Appearance

 

anyone add any other charateristics?

 

I am sure there will be a pattern

 

Agreed... I'm certain there will be a pattern. 

 

It will be repeat visitors to Thailand trying to enter on repeat Tourist Visa's or VoE entries. 

 

Those most likely to be working here illegally. 

 

 

 

[Letseng]

5 hours ago, borderlesss said:

I see what you are saying. In my case since I'm going to immediately start the Thai elite process, I think it's reasonable to burn one of these. 

 

Since I now have an overstay stamp and a 'denied entry' stamp on whatever it is, I do have concerns I'll be able to get in via land border even. Is that concern warranted? I mean are the IOs at land borders just blindly stamping people through?

 

Alternatively I could be at the Thai embassy in ho chi Minh tomorrow morning when it opens. A bit concerned since I've gotten an SETV here before + the 2 new ugly stamps. 

And Elite path may be blocked with your immigration history.

[JackThompson]

22 minutes ago, stevenl said:

"They are not trying to weed out people w/o funds, or enforce an actual valid law.  They cannot get extra-money out of tourist-entries, so they are trying to force people to use other options that involve immigration-kickback schemes (agent-facilitated extensions, etc)."

 

They are trying to get people who live in Thailand to stay here on non-immigrant visa and/or extensions of stay.

The people being denied are not applying for 1-year permitted-stays.  It is not within the scope of IOs authority to try to force visitors into certain types of stays/extensions - and just coincidentally, where they have established payoff-mechanisms.

 

22 minutes ago, stevenl said:

Your nonsense about dishonest IO's etc. is really getting tiring.

The behavior of the bad IO-supervisors is worse than tiring.  It is harming a lot of people - mostly Thais, and hitting them the worst - for no reason other than filling their own pockets.  The Thais affected cannot opt to move somewhere else, instead.

[Salerno]

18 minutes ago, Formaleins said:

I am sure there will be a pattern

The pattern appears to be ... living in Thailand.

[stevenl]

2 minutes ago, JackThompson said:

The people being denied are not applying for 1-year permitted-stays.  It is not within the scope of IOs authority to try to force visitors into certain types of stays/extensions - and just coincidentally, where they have established payoff-mechanisms.

 

The behavior of the bad IO-supervisors is worse than tiring.  It is harming a lot of people - mostly Thais, and hitting them the worst - for no reason other than filling their own pockets.  The Thais affected cannot opt to move somewhere else, instead.

Doesn't really matter if it is withing their scope or not.

 

Every reasonable person should know that a tourist visa or even a tourist visa exempt entry is not meant to stay in a country long term. Twist it any way you like, but that is the way it is.

 

Want to live in Thailand, get a long term visa or extension of stay. Both easily obtainable without any teamoneys to be paid.

[Xaos]

All u had to do was sign up to school get ED for a year. 17k

[borderlesss]

28 minutes ago, natway09 said:

So you showed them a lease agreement which made him smile & think

"I was right, he is living here"

Get your house in order we have been warned for 3 years now

They never asked actually, they didn't care about the details of my situation, their minds were made up very early

 

29 minutes ago, myshem said:

how is the food ? and bed ?

 

 

Could be worse but pretty shit. Guards and staff are as nice as can be expected

 

7 minutes ago, Letseng said:

And Elite path may be blocked with your immigration history.

Not impossible, I read the TE thread, there is a lot of talk and very few facts in there. The loudness of the anti TE argument is going to be lopsided because there is a lot of people who can't afford TE and don't want others to have it either. All in all I don't think Thailand wants to dissuade people from spending money on these visas and allowing them to spend further money in their country

[richard_smith237]

1 minute ago, Salerno said:

The pattern appears to be ... living in Thailand.

 

Plenty of us live in Thailand... 

But on Extensions of stay based on meeting specific criteria... i.e.

- Retirement + 800k (or 65K monthly from overseas)

- Marriage 400k (not entirely sure)

- Work  (work Permitted)

- Thai Elite

 

It seems the ones being rejected are always on repeat Tourist Visa's or Visa Exempt entires. 

 

 

Naturally immigration assume these people are working, most probably are. If immigration accepted proof of funds from overseas that these folk are not working here, can support themselves when in Thailand and don't need to work it would seem more fare. 

 

It's impossible to prove you are not working in Thailand. But its not impossible to prove you don't need to work here by showing outside income / funds sufficient funds to live off. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[sanemax]

1 minute ago, Xaos said:

All u had to do was sign up to school get ED for a year. 17k

Isnt that just the schooling cost ? 

And thats now just for six months since they doubled the amount of study time needed .

Once youve paid for the schooling and visa and extensions , its more like 50K per year 

[Formaleins]

17 minutes ago, richard_smith237 said:

 

Agreed... I'm certain there will be a pattern. 

 

It will be repeat visitors to Thailand trying to enter on repeat Tourist Visa's or VoE entries. 

 

Those most likely to be working here illegally. 

 

 

 

Agreed, but I have a feeling certain ethnic groups / passports will also show up - I just have a feeling that there could be an interesting trend

[richard_smith237]

5 minutes ago, stevenl said:

11 minutes ago, JackThompson said:

The people being denied are not applying for 1-year permitted-stays.  It is not within the scope of IOs authority to try to force visitors into certain types of stays/extensions - and just coincidentally, where they have established payoff-mechanisms.

 

The behavior of the bad IO-supervisors is worse than tiring.  It is harming a lot of people - mostly Thais, and hitting them the worst - for no reason other than filling their own pockets.  The Thais affected cannot opt to move somewhere else, instead.

Doesn't really matter if it is withing their scope or not.

 

Every reasonable person should know that a tourist visa or even a tourist visa exempt entry is not meant to stay in a country long term. Twist it any way you like, but that is the way it is.

 

Want to live in Thailand, get a long term visa or extension of stay. Both easily obtainable without any teamoneys to be paid.

 

Thats exactly the way it is Stevenl.... but some people can't accept this and want to circumvent the 'system' because they want to stay here long term but don't meet the requirements. 

 

Its often the same people who can't meet these financial requirements while at the same time under the false believe that They are popping up Thailands economy...   these same folk scream corruption, unfair treatment etc when ultimately in many cases they themselves are the ones trying to cheat the immigration laws. 

[acenase]

If the IO's who are denying entry based on History aren't dishonest, then why are they denying entry and marking down Section 12 (2) Insufficient Funds, even though you have proof of 20,000฿ cash? The law says "Entering with a Tourist Visa must prove funds of 20,000฿" so they should accept the amount of 20,000฿ for the 60 days entry of a tourist visa. But they don't care about that. The underlying reason they want to deny you is because of your long history (that is because there is no law that says you can not have a long history. So they are lying and saying you dont have any funds even if you do!)

 

Even Thai airlines were ignorant about why I got the denial. I asked why does the paperwork say insufficient funds for my reason, when i have 20k cash in my wallet and I'm paying 8,000 baht (return flight) from bkk-vte.  I told them I dont even need a return flight to BKK because when i go to VTE I will re-enter Thailand via Land Border, but they said they still need me to book a return flight back to BKK and wouldn't let me board the flight to VTE if i didn't have a onward flight from VTE, because they said it will be impossible for me to enter Thailand and that the IO will see the denial stamp in my passport and deny my entry again so i need to have a flight coming back out of VTE.  I specifically said "This does not make me banned from Thailand. It just means they don't want me entering at this airport so i will enter through land border and use my new tourist visa" I opened my passport and showed them my brand new valid tourist visa and they had nothing to say about it. They also didn't understand when I said I will fly domestically from Udon to Bkk because they kept telling me "You will have the same problems at Immigration when you fly into Don Mueang" but they didn't even realize that I would be on a Domestic flights and don't need to go through immigration because i'll already have my stamp from Thai-Lao border. I'm curious when the IO took my passport, why didn't they VOID my tourist visa? So I was still able to use my unused Tourist visa for a 60 day stamp the next day when i entered at nong khai.

Edited April 24, 2019 by acenase

[JackThompson]

1 hour ago, borderlesss said:

no ban in passport just a denial stamp, the IO told me I am only not allowed in _this time_ so there isnt any kind of ban going on

 

As I understand it, I'm allowed to enter thailand via land twice per calendar year visa exempt, what rules am I breaking by going directly to laos to cross via land? it might be a bit cheeky and some IO's may take offense and deny entry

People do it all the time, but most reports are those with Tourist Visas who got bounced back from the airports, and used their Visa to enter by land.  

 

1 hour ago, borderlesss said:

Maybe you misunderstood before when i said "via DMK", i'd be going from phnom penh to DMK to vientiane, do you think that would have me crossing thai immigration at any point? 

Possibly - but they might let you through with your same-day-outgoing ticket - possibly escort you directly to the outgoing-terminal.  No guarantees though - you just experienced them lying about why you were denied-entry, so they can literally do anything.

If it were me, and I had to try Visa-Exempt, I would try Ban Laem, since you are already going to be in PP soon.  Bus to Battambang, shared-taxi to the Ban Laem entry-point.  Explain there was a misunderstanding, and you have plenty of money.  If they reject - unlikely to stamp anything else in your passport, you just walk back into Cambodia and try "Plan C" - But avoid Poipet - worse than the airport.

 

Spending repeat visits here on tourist-entries requires flexibility of schedule - enough time to spend some days to get a Visa, trips overland to avoid bad entry points, etc.  I'm not saying that to be rude - it's just how it is.

Edited April 24, 2019 by JackThompson

[richard_smith237]

1 minute ago, Formaleins said:

21 minutes ago, richard_smith237 said:

 

Agreed... I'm certain there will be a pattern. 

 

It will be repeat visitors to Thailand trying to enter on repeat Tourist Visa's or VoE entries. 

 

Those most likely to be working here illegally. 

 

Agreed, but I have a feeling certain ethnic groups / passports will also show up - I just have a feeling that there could be an interesting trend

 

Quite possible: It would be difficult to reach all 'ethnic groups' in a single survey though... 

 

I suspect if we were sample the Immigration rejections from ThaiVisa.com users we would see primarily...

 

a) European and American (white) 30-50's who are attempting to work from home in Thailand (ebay etc digital nomad types)

b) European and American (white) 50-70's retired blue collar workers unable to meet the Visa requirements

 

But thats probably because that is the primary demographic of ThaiVisa.com users !

[cerox]

A "no-hassle" accepted school (not the super-small ones) will cost about 25-30k for one year. Additionally you have to pay for the Laos trip, the visa there, and all visa extensions etc.

For me it is usually about 50-60k per year.

 

Honestly if something like that happens to me between ED visas and one visa exempt entry every few years for me, I would just pack my stuff and leave, not even doing a new ED visa. Keep your belongings / money in the country, small, you are just a guest here, no matter what visa you use.

[Salerno]

14 minutes ago, richard_smith237 said:

Plenty of us live in Thailand... 

Exactly, but those with correct visas are not those getting denied entry, hence, "living there" being the pattern amongst those being denied.

[JackThompson]

19 minutes ago, richard_smith237 said:

Thats exactly the way it is Stevenl.... but some people can't accept this and want to circumvent the 'system' because they want to stay here long term but don't meet the requirements. 

 

Its often the same people who can't meet these financial requirements while at the same time under the false believe that They are popping up Thailands economy...   these same folk scream corruption, unfair treatment etc when ultimately in many cases they themselves are the ones trying to cheat the immigration laws. 

The ones "circumventing" the immigration laws are the IOs denying entry based on lies.

 

The ones "cheating" the immigration laws are the most-beloved by immigration - they use immigration's agent-partners (including schools), and qualifications disappear.

 

30 minutes ago, stevenl said:

Every reasonable person should know that a tourist visa or even a tourist visa exempt entry is not meant to stay in a country long term. Twist it any way you like, but that is the way it is.

Visitors only get 30/60 days permitted stay when entering as a tourist, so there is no way to "stay long term."  Immigration will, however, extend for 30 more days - which they do in a routine fashion - demonstrating that folks like the OP are not violating some order "from the top." 

 

After that, one can leave and return, which is 100% within the law.  But, one must avoid entry-points where the law isn't followed.   That (and being in a hurry) was the cause of the OP's misfortune.

 

30 minutes ago, stevenl said:

Want to live in Thailand, get a long term visa or extension of stay. Both easily obtainable without any teamoneys to be paid.

If he is under-50, not so easily.  One option would be the ED route, but he is likely to face hassles and short-extensions unless paying tea-money through the school - whether he actually attends his classes or not (not a "real" factor - just the payoffs are).

[richard_smith237]

7 minutes ago, JackThompson said:

38 minutes ago, richard_smith237 said:

Thats exactly the way it is Stevenl.... but some people can't accept this and want to circumvent the 'system' because they want to stay here long term but don't meet the requirements. 

 

Its often the same people who can't meet these financial requirements while at the same time under the false believe that They are popping up Thailands economy...   these same folk scream corruption, unfair treatment etc when ultimately in many cases they themselves are the ones trying to cheat the immigration laws. 

The ones "circumventing" the immigration laws are the IOs denying entry based on lies.

 

The ones "cheating" the immigration laws are the most-beloved by immigration - they use immigration's agent-partners (including schools), and qualifications disappear.

 

46 minutes ago, stevenl said:

Every reasonable person should know that a tourist visa or even a tourist visa exempt entry is not meant to stay in a country long term. Twist it any way you like, but that is the way it is.

Visitors only get 30/60 days permitted stay when entering as a tourist, so there is no way to "stay long term."  Immigration will, however, extend for 30 more days - which they do in a routine fashion - demonstrating that folks like the OP are not violating some order "from the top." 

 

After that, one can leave and return, which is 100% within the law.  But, one must avoid entry-points where the law isn't followed.   That (and being in a hurry) was the cause of the OP's misfortune.

 

Quote

Want to live in Thailand, get a long term visa or extension of stay. Both easily obtainable without any teamoneys to be paid.

If he is under-50, not so easily.  One option would be the ED route, but he is likely to face hassles and short-extensions unless paying tea-money through the school - whether he actually attends his classes or not (not a "real" factor - just the payoffs are).

 

Your repetitive rubbish is getting tiring now. 

 

 

On a personal level I know of no one forced to use agents etc... those I know who meet Immigration requirements have no issues whatsoever. 

 

I do have a couple of acquaintances who don't meet the requirements - they are working here illegally and are forced to juggle their entries, extensions etc and may be forced to use these agents you speak of. 

 

 

So, JackThompson - What exactly is your issue, why are you forced to use these 'Agent Partners' ??? Do you not meet the requirements, and thus need to get Agents to somehow lie for you? a more surefire way to circumvent the Immigration laws ?

 

 

 

 

 

Edited April 24, 2019 by richard_smith237

[jspill]

For my ed visa everyone has to pay an extra 1500 baht tea money at immigration to get a 3 month extension, on top of the 1900 baht, and go to a special desk with an agent. 

 

As for OP fly to vientiane and entry should be fine, in the rare cases it doesn't work you aren't detained or given any stamp so can try again the next day / try at Savannakhet / apply for a tourist visa at Savannahkhet (can't at Vientiane as they now require an online appointment booking, full for 2-3 weeks in advance). 

[Traubert]

1 hour ago, yuiop said:

According to which Thai Law exactly?

Nobody said it was a law. It's a policy. The clue is in the word 'tourist.'

[Kieran00001]

The Warsaw Convention puts the onus on the carrier to make sure the passenger is legal to fly, if then denied entry for a predetermined reason such as in your case, then the carrier must return the passenger to where they came from.  In civilized countries, this is exactly what happens, they put them on the next returning flight and then the airline tries to recover the cost later as there is a clause added to your ticket in which you've agreed to foot that bill.  However, in Thailand, they are leaving people to rot in the detention center if they haven't the money upfront, these are presumably the same airlines, its certainly the same international agreement, I guess it comes down to different local laws 55.  Best to do whatever they suggest and just get out of there.

[Ctkong]

5 hours ago, JackThompson said:

He is following the rules, actually.  The IOs claiming he doesn't have proof of money not required for a tourist-entry in the first place are the ones being dishonest.

 

He just arrived on a plane - clearly he was traveling.

 

Yes, he learned a hard lesson about the dishonestly of Thai immigration at bad entry-points.

I think the Thai IO are looking actively for those long stay tourists gaming the system without the correct visas. Time to correct that and fast! 

[JackThompson]

39 minutes ago, richard_smith237 said:

Your repetitive rubbish is getting tiring now. 

Thai immigrations repetitive abuse of the laws they are sworn to uphold is far worse than tiring.  So are those making excuses for them, and averting their eyes to the obvious monetary-reward for their actions, when there is no logical reason for the actions.

 

39 minutes ago, richard_smith237 said:

On a personal level I know of no one forced to use agents etc... those I know who meet Immigration requirements have no issues whatsoever. 

If you read this site, you can meet many.

 

39 minutes ago, richard_smith237 said:

I do have a couple of acquaintances who don't meet the requirements - they are working here illegally and are forced to juggle their entries, extensions etc and may be forced to use these agents you speak of. 

Anyone not following the laws/rules has a way, if they use immigration's agent-partners.

 

39 minutes ago, richard_smith237 said:

So, JackThompson - What exactly is your issue, why are you forced to use these 'Agent Partners' ??? Do you not meet the requirements, and thus need to get Agents to somehow lie for you? a more surefire way to circumvent the Immigration laws ?

I've told my story several times - denied a Non-O stamp in one location, and marriage-based extension in two locations, by corrupt IOs making up unpublished requirements.  I qualified in all cases - an embassy-letter with the MFA's seal PLUS Thai bank-book proof of the income.  Due to immigration's corruption, I now stay here on a Non-O-ME Visa, to avoid using the agents.  At some point, I expect the door to close on legal means of stay, and agent-laundered payoffs or brown-envelopes to be my only option (as it now is for many others).

 

I want as many as possible to know the Lion's Den they are walking into at immigration - many  offices and some entry points.  You, like many who "haven't had problems yet," will lead many into a shock, if they believe your experience is universal.  It isn't.

[Ctkong]

1 hour ago, sanemax said:

Isnt that just the schooling cost ? 

And thats now just for six months since they doubled the amount of study time needed .

Once youve paid for the schooling and visa and extensions , its more like 50K per year 

Cost almost the same per year for a Thai elite 20 years SE visa ! 

[acenase]

13 minutes ago, Ctkong said:

I think the Thai IO are looking actively for those long stay tourists gaming the system without the correct visas. Time to correct that and fast! 

 

I wouldn't exactly call it gaming the system.

 

I'm a genuine tourist, albiet my homebase being Bangkok, the reason for that is because I can fly all over Asia for such a low cost. I just happen to stay my full 90 days before I travel again.  

 

I've been to Hong kong, Hanoi, Vientiane, phillipines, Bali, and getting tourist visas before coming back to Bangkok and got denied entry because I am "not allowed to leave the country for only a week and come back and I stayed more than 180 days in Thailand in the year" but how can I not be a genuine tourist when i am traveling to new countries I've never been to before... but just staying in Bangkok during the in between periods. I don't plan on living in thailand forever, I'm just trying to be here for 2-3 years at most and go back home. But now that's not looking possible unless I avoid Airports all together which I didn't plan on doing since I am actually flying out of the country and traveling around asia.

 

thats why it doesnt make sense. Shouldnt they scrutinize people using land borders? Those guys can chill out in Thailand for years and just do a quick border hop, and never actually fly out of the country compared to me I'm actually spending money being a real tourist and flying to new places each time just coming back to Thailand and chilling out for 3 months before traveling to a new country.

[cerox]

12 minutes ago, Ctkong said:

Cost almost the same per year for a Thai elite 20 years SE visa !  

You are right. It is even a little bit more what I and others pay for ED visa.

 

But not everybody wants to buy something 20 years in advance (5y option too expensive). I prefer to be free so I can move to other countries and stay flexible.

 

I might be a good option for those who are entirely sure (married, kids etc.) they will stay here "forever" (this is what I would call 20 years).