denied at bkk, waiting in detention

[JackThompson]

13 minutes ago, Ctkong said:

I think the Thai IO are looking actively for those long stay tourists gaming the system without the correct visas. Time to correct that and fast! 

No one following the published rules is "gaming" anything.  Certainly the IOs using lying rejection-stamps are, though.  In fact, "gaming" is far too polite a word to use to describe it. 

 

The small "correction" would be firing the supervisors pushing this and re-training the lower-level personnel.  

The big-fix would be to take out the entire conspiracy - from bad offices to bad entry-points.  But they'd probably need to bring in investigators from other countries to pull that off.

 

4 minutes ago, Ctkong said:

Cost almost the same per year for a Thai elite 20 years SE visa ! 

But the ED is just 1 year up-front or less - not 20 years. 

[marke985]

7 hours ago, BritManToo said:

Reports are they only take that policy seriously if you sign the forms (which you foolishly did).

If you refuse to sign there is room for negotiation on the destination of flights out.

I signed the report last month at DMK and I was allowed to fly anywhere AirAsia flew that did not require a Visa to enter.  I flew in on AirAsia from Manila.

[riclag]

 I wish these posters would mention how old they are. Are IO targeting mostly  young people, old ,both or what

[richard_smith237]

36 minutes ago, JackThompson said:

1 hour ago, richard_smith237 said:

Your repetitive rubbish is getting tiring now. 

Thai immigrations repetitive abuse of the laws they are sworn to uphold is far worse than tiring.  So are those making excuses for them, and averting their eyes to the obvious monetary-reward for their actions, when there is no logical reason for the actions.

 

Quote

On a personal level I know of no one forced to use agents etc... those I know who meet Immigration requirements have no issues whatsoever. 

If you read this site, you can meet many.

I don't quite believe half the claims made by people who've 'lost out' they always blame their failings on the fault or corruption of others and there is no way to verify the veracity of their claims. I only know the character of those I personally know - they never have issues. 

 

 

36 minutes ago, JackThompson said:

Quote

I do have a couple of acquaintances who don't meet the requirements - they are working here illegally and are forced to juggle their entries, extensions etc and may be forced to use these agents you speak of. 

Anyone not following the laws/rules has a way, if they use immigration's agent-partners.

So using Agents helps people circumnavigate the laws. Agreed - Corruption. 

 

36 minutes ago, JackThompson said:

Quote

So, JackThompson - What exactly is your issue, why are you forced to use these 'Agent Partners' ??? Do you not meet the requirements, and thus need to get Agents to somehow lie for you? a more surefire way to circumvent the Immigration laws ?

I've told my story several times - denied a Non-O stamp in one location, and marriage-based extension in two locations, by corrupt IOs making up unpublished requirements.  I qualified in all cases - an embassy-letter with the MFA's seal PLUS Thai bank-book proof of the income.  Due to immigration's corruption, I now stay here on a Non-O-ME Visa, to avoid using the agents.  At some point, I expect the door to close on legal means of stay, and agent-laundered payoffs or brown-envelopes to be my only option (as it now is for many others).

 

I want as many as possible to know the Lion's Den they are walking into at immigration - many  offices and some entry points.  You, like many who "haven't had problems yet," will lead many into a shock, if they believe your experience is universal.  It isn't.

 

You've been rejected 3 times in 3 locations. You have met the requirements without question. The Immigration officials in these locations are corrupt and are forcing you to use agents.

 

How much are the Agents?

 

 

You said you qualified in all cases: 

- Did you have the seasoned 800,000 baht?

- Did you have 65,000 baht per month incoming to a Thai account from Overseas?

 

You wrote you have an Embassy Letter with MFA Seal / Approval?

- Is that an Affirmation of Income?

You wrote that you provided a Bank book.

- Did that show an income from overseas of 65,000 baht per month?

 

 

 

[Ctkong]

3 hours ago, borderlesss said:

no ban in passport just a denial stamp, the IO told me I am only not allowed in _this time_ so there isnt any kind of ban going on

 

As I understand it, I'm allowed to enter thailand via land twice per calendar year visa exempt, what rules am I breaking by going directly to laos to cross via land? it might be a bit cheeky and some IO's may take offense and deny entry

As I understand it, thai IOS has the ultimate say whether you are coming into the country or not regardless of you having a valid visa or visa exempt. No reason need to be given other than that the IO has REASONABLE DOUBT THAT YOU'RE A REAL TOURIST. Debating whether the reason stamp on the passport about insufficient fund  is legal or not is furtile because that is only a face saving reason for your denial of entry. We all know the real reason you were denied entry and the IO definitely knew as well. They are definitely tightening this loophole as much as they can. 

[Salerno]

2 minutes ago, riclag said:

 I wish these posters would mention how old they are. Are IO targeting mostly  young people, old ,both or what

I'd say all under 50 ... or they'd have the correct visa for "living" in Thailand.

[Ctkong]

48 minutes ago, acenase said:

 

I wouldn't exactly call it gaming the system.

 

I'm a genuine tourist, albiet my homebase being Bangkok, the reason for that is because I can fly all over Asia for such a low cost. I just happen to stay my full 90 days before I travel again.  

 

I've been to Hong kong, Hanoi, Vientiane, phillipines, Bali, and getting tourist visas before coming back to Bangkok and got denied entry because I am "not allowed to leave the country for only a week and come back and I stayed more than 180 days in Thailand in the year" but how can I not be a genuine tourist when i am traveling to new countries I've never been to before... but just staying in Bangkok during the in between periods. I don't plan on living in thailand forever, I'm just trying to be here for 2-3 years at most and go back home. But now that's not looking possible unless I avoid Airports all together which I didn't plan on doing since I am actually flying out of the country and traveling around asia.

 

thats why it doesnt make sense. Shouldnt they scrutinize people using land borders? Those guys can chill out in Thailand for years and just do a quick border hop, and never actually fly out of the country compared to me I'm actually spending money being a real tourist and flying to new places each time just coming back to Thailand and chilling out for 3 months before traveling to a new country.

I would say according to the thai immigration, you are a tourist to other countries except Thailand . You are only using Thailand ( Bangkok) as a launchpad or staging area for traveling to other countries but definitely not traveling in and around Thailand.  

[Ctkong]

Maybe thai immigration regard acenase’s staying of 90 days each time he was in Thailand as too long for a repeat tourist. I travel to Thailand monthly for a period of 10-14 days for past 25 years. No problem with the IO at all....both airports. I did try to spend less than 180 days a year in Thailand though. 

Edited April 24, 2019 by Ctkong
Additional information

[oobar]

3 hours ago, borderlesss said:

JUST DO NOT WHINE TO US.

Oh, come on now.  Some of us are actually interested in a good and proper whine like this one.  No one is being forced to read it. 

[rott]

1 hour ago, richard_smith237 said:

 

Your repetitive rubbish is getting tiring now. 

 

 

On a personal level I know of no one forced to use agents etc... those I know who meet Immigration requirements have no issues whatsoever. 

 

I do have a couple of acquaintances who don't meet the requirements - they are working here illegally and are forced to juggle their entries, extensions etc and may be forced to use these agents you speak of. 

 

 

So, JackThompson - What exactly is your issue, why are you forced to use these 'Agent Partners' ??? Do you not meet the requirements, and thus need to get Agents to somehow lie for you? a more surefire way to circumvent the Immigration laws ?

 

 

 

 

 

Most people using agents have no "issues", all plain sailing. And far from being forced into it they are glad of it and think it well worth the money.

[Ken Jones]

5 hours ago, acenase said:

Are you an indian looking fellow??

 

 

[riclag]

Hey OP how old are you

[The Theory]

11 hours ago, borderlesss said:

I do live in Bangkok, have possessions and and ongoing lease here.

I just don’t understand that why some people lease a condo/apartment base on their visa exempt and make a home, There is no guarantee for next visa exempt. Once they are denied there is no back to your possessions. 

I hope I’m wrong. 

[Ctkong]

30 minutes ago, The Theory said:

I just don’t understand that why some people lease a condo/apartment base on their visa exempt and make a home, There is no guarantee for next visa exempt. Once they are denied there is no back to your possessions. 

I hope I’m wrong. 

They can get their friends to send their stuff back to where they are based. That is what friends are for. Moreover, maybe the friends can get to stay rent free in his condo while he is away.. I also have a few long term place of stay in various countries that I visited frequently. Sick of staying in hotels after so many years. A place of your own you can put your stuff there and just bring a few necessary items with you when you travel. Better still, install a live in girlfriend at each place to keep you company. 

Edited April 24, 2019 by Ctkong

[BritTim]

2 hours ago, Ctkong said:

As I understand it, thai IOS has the ultimate say whether you are coming into the country or not regardless of you having a valid visa or visa exempt. No reason need to be given other than that the IO has REASONABLE DOUBT THAT YOU'RE A REAL TOURIST. Debating whether the reason stamp on the passport about insufficient fund  is legal or not is furtile because that is only a face saving reason for your denial of entry. We all know the real reason you were denied entry and the IO definitely knew as well. They are definitely tightening this loophole as much as they can. 

The immigration official has no power in law to deny entry other than pursuant to the reasons listed in Section 12 of the Immigration Act. You will not find any subsection of Section 12 that has the official empowered to reevaluate whether you should have been issued a visa. As a practical matter, yes, at the affected entry points, the official can deny you for enjoying Thailand for too long, a lack of sartorial elegance, looking like a TV villain, or any other reason s/he pleases, as long as there is no oversight on what the official is doing. The official reason stamped in your passport will be Section 12 (2) in all cases.

[The Theory]

9 minutes ago, Ctkong said:

They can get their friends to send their stuff back to where they are based. That is what friends are for. Moreover, maybe the friends can get to stay rent free in his condo while he is away.. I also have a few long term place of stay in various countries that I visited frequently. Sick of staying in hotels after so many years. A place of your own you can put your stuff there and just bring a few necessary items with you when you travel. Better still, install a live in girlfriend at each place to keep you company. 

Right

good luck with friends. 

[oobar]

4 hours ago, richard_smith237 said:

Your repetitive rubbish is getting tiring now. 

This kind of useless statement is what is tiring.

[hottrader77]

hi i would get a 60 day tourist visa ,i was told i was doing illegal on my 1st going out and in thailand which was a lie as your supposed to be allowed 2 times in and out a year 

[richard_smith237]

9 minutes ago, oobar said:

4 hours ago, richard_smith237 said:

Your repetitive rubbish is getting tiring now. 

This kind of useless statement is what is tiring.

 

Yawn...   cutting out 90% of my comment before you call it useless is your contribution... 

 

Bring something of even the remotest intelligence to the discussion, please... 

 

I'll start you off.... Had your visa rejected because you don't meet the requirements? is this why you have attempted so poorly to defend someone who's been rejected 3 times in a row in by 3 different offices and thus calls them all corrupt?

 

 

 

 

 

[brokenbone]

4 hours ago, richard_smith237 said:

 

 

On a personal level I know of no one forced to use agents etc... those I know who meet Immigration requirements have no issues whatsoever.

on my personal level i know of one that met and exceeded

requirements but was refused visa, and at the time,

i didnt even know of agents.

i wont be dealing with immigration again on a personal level

[richard_smith237]

16 minutes ago, brokenbone said:

on my personal level i know of one that met and exceeded

requirements but was refused visa, and at the time,

i didnt even know of agents.

i wont be dealing with immigration again on a personal level

 

Fair enough - many prefer to go the Agent route and that seems to suit them. 

 

For the benefit of the thread (and my understanding) - what requirements were met, but ultimately refused?

 

You had the 800,000 baht seasoned in Thai Bank Account and that was not accepted?

Or, you have Bank Records showing 65,000 baht per month (or more) incoming from overseas for the past 12 months?

 

 

[brokenbone]

9 minutes ago, richard_smith237 said:

 

Fair enough - many prefer to go the Agent route and that seems to suit them. 

 

For the benefit of the thread (and my understanding) - what requirements were met, but ultimately refused?

 

You had the 800,000 baht seasoned in Thai Bank Account and that was not accepted?

Or, you have Bank Records showing 65,000 baht per month (or more) incoming from overseas for the past 12 months?

 

 

i had an embassy letter confirming my income exceeding requirement, but IO would have none of it and just kept

harping on with additional made up requirements until i had to leave thailand

[PaulJ]

My comment about Chiang Mai being easier than BK I just return them after a 8 day trip to Burma by plane and I have a big problem trying to persuade them it wasn’t a Visa run. I’ve never had an overstay or anything else but I visit to Thailand a lot over the years. I have always used at flights and stayed within my time limits. 

 You told me I need to get my Visa in England next time which is worrying as it doesn’t seem wrong to fly  and return to Thailand.

[Scott]

Off-topic post reported and removed.  

[BritTim]

5 hours ago, PaulJ said:

My comment about Chiang Mai being easier than BK I just return them after a 8 day trip to Burma by plane and I have a big problem trying to persuade them it wasn’t a Visa run. I’ve never had an overstay or anything else but I visit to Thailand a lot over the years. I have always used at flights and stayed within my time limits. 

 You told me I need to get my Visa in England next time which is worrying as it doesn’t seem wrong to fly  and return to Thailand.

Were you trying to enter with a tourist visa, or were you asking for a visa exempt entry? If a visa exempt entry, roughly how many visa exempt entries to Thailand have you had since the middle of 2015?

[jacko45k]

On 4/24/2019 at 9:36 AM, borderlesss said:

I do live in Bangkok, have possessions and and ongoing lease here. Fully intend to re-enter. I have already started looking at Thai Elite to rid myself of these problems once and for all

You may have issues with the overstay on record. 

[borderlesss]

update: was escorted to my flight by Cambodian airline staff + airport security, they were both nice enough, the security guy made a point of looking at me and saying good bye before I entered the plane but they do take this procedure pretty seriously

 

During this whole time I still do not have my passport, they Cambodian airline staff handed it to one of the flight attendants on the plane and instructed her to hold onto it until we arrived in PNH. I was seated in the back of the plane and told I must wait for everyone else to leave the plane before I could. Once we arrived in PNH, I still didn't receive my passport and it was then handed to some immigration supervisor (not sure of his position but everyone around was giving him a lot of respect), he reviewed it and explained in Cambodian to his staff what my situation was (or at least what he thought it was), he advised me to not go back to Thailand, gave the passport back to Cambodian airline staff who then babysat me through the visa on arrival procedure. This was all in good nature, just a bit annoying.

 

Analysis: The airline took their responsibility to bring me back to PNH very seriously, custody of passport also taken very seriously, it seems like they had some legal obligation to do so or at least a strong policy - I did ask for my passport back on the flight and they said they couldn't. Somewhere on this website I heard the warsaw convention cited which has to due with the carrier being responsible for baggage that is damaged or not delivered to the destination - can this apply to passengers to? Not sure but it is some form of precedent or reference.

 

WRT Cambodian immigration looking at my passport and analyzing my situation + baby sitting me until i passed through their immigration (I only finally got my passport handed back to me just before I walked through Cambodian immigration). It seems less likely they had any obligation to do this and more likely they are just having fun and/or bored. They didn't ask me any questions or express any concerns.

 

Side rant: Booking my flight from BKK to PNH was a nightmare, the Cambodian Air website has not accepted credit cards since January of this year. There was 3 other websites online that sold this flight: trip.com which at the last point of booking says "flight no longer available" and then removed it as an offering, kiwi.com which booked my flight and then sent an email 1 hour later saying "booking canceled", edreams.com which charged me, never sent me a confirmation letter, and when I called them 2-3x just said they "cannot confirm flight, call Cambodian air" and then gave me the wrong number to cambodian air :D. I kept trying to phone the cambodian air representative to pay in cash and they said I had to pay online, I said "OK sure, where the <deleted> do I pay online? I tried your website and every website online that offers your flight, trust me I have nothing better to do right now and there is no where to buy this flight online". we went back and forth on this 3-4x where I hungup and tried to book the flight again, call edreams, etc., started to feel like I was in the twilight zone. Finally they said I could pay in cash (I asked for this repeatedly all day), price 70$, of course I said okay. They phoned back 20 minutes later and said "sorry sir, actually the price is 220$", I lol inside and say "okay" again. Price online $55, initial price quoted by staff $70, last minute jacked up to $220. Looks like some Cambodian airline staff's girlfriend will be getting a nice gift care of yours truly.

 

Advice: I've said this before on this thread already but single best piece of advice I can give is if you are in any doubt at all of your ability to get in to Thailand via air, make sure you: 1) fly in early so you have many opportunities to fly out before you have to spend the night in detention 2) fly in on an airline with many flights and with flights back to your port of origin later on in that day (at least 4h after you arrive as thats about how much time you'll need to be processed, meet airline staff, and book a flight, 5h+ probably better)

 

Obviously not getting into this situation in the first place is more important but there is plenty of advice from more qualified people than me already on this forum, I haven't seen the above anywhere yet.

[borderlesss]

Leaving to Vientiane direct in a few hours.

 

My passport looks like:

 

page 1 of visas: thailand exit stamp + stamp showing details of tourist visa from last passport + 14 day overstay stamp

page 2: cambodia visa

page 3: cambodia entry/exit stamp + thailand denial of entry stamp (

page 4: empty

page 5: cambodia visa

page 6: cambodia entry stamp

 

By the time I try to cross to Thailand later tonight, I will have another cambodia exit stamp, a Laos visa + laos entry/exit stamps (i think). That's a pretty ugly looking passport + the fact I'm trying to get in 2 calendar days after being denied means that if I get in, pretty much anyone has a decent shot via land borders.

 

Will update results for good measure <removed>

Edited April 25, 2019 by ubonjoe
inflammatory comment removed

[Kieran00001]

2 hours ago, borderlesss said:

Leaving to Vientiane direct in a few hours.

 

My passport looks like:

 

page 1 of visas: thailand exit stamp + stamp showing details of tourist visa from last passport + 14 day overstay stamp

page 2: cambodia visa

page 3: cambodia entry/exit stamp + thailand denial of entry stamp (

page 4: empty

page 5: cambodia visa

page 6: cambodia entry stamp

 

By the time I try to cross to Thailand later tonight, I will have another cambodia exit stamp, a Laos visa + laos entry/exit stamps (i think). That's a pretty ugly looking passport + the fact I'm trying to get in 2 calendar days after being denied means that if I get in, pretty much anyone has a decent shot via land borders.

 

Will update results for good measure <removed>

 

You could try going to Poipet and paying one of the border guys, they do little services there such as taking your passport to Laos and back for you to save you the bother of walking through and queueing, they might also be able to help you with this one.

[JackThompson]

22 hours ago, richard_smith237 said:

I don't quite believe half the claims made by people who've 'lost out' they always blame their failings on the fault or corruption of others and there is no way to verify the veracity of their claims. I only know the character of those I personally know - they never have issues. 

In that case, your sample-size is close to useless for analysis.

 

22 hours ago, richard_smith237 said:

So using Agents helps people circumnavigate the laws. Agreed - Corruption. 

In some cases, helps you get an extension at all.

 

22 hours ago, richard_smith237 said:

You've been rejected 3 times in 3 locations. You have met the requirements without question. The Immigration officials in these locations are corrupt and are forcing you to use agents.

Two locations.  The Non-O and marriage-based extension in the same office - Jomtien.  The Non-O provided an "unofficial" list of requirements where no amount of income / proof qualified. 

 

The marriage-based was fine with the income-letter (did not ask to see the backup-evidence) but continually added more and more landlord-docs, being more angry, rude and outright cruel to my wife each time.

 

Quote

How much are the Agents?

25K Baht for marriage-based.  About 15K for retirement-based.

 

Quote

You said you qualified in all cases: 

- Did you have the seasoned 800,000 baht?

- Did you have 65,000 baht per month incoming to a Thai account from Overseas?

Over 40K baht income - letter + proof.  None wanted to see evidence of deposits.  The second location said only a state-pension income qualified as income.

 

Quote

You wrote you have an Embassy Letter with MFA Seal / Approval?

- Is that an Affirmation of Income?

Yes, it was - while those were still available.  I now use a Visa to avoid the corruption. 

 

Quote

You wrote that you provided a Bank book.

- Did that show an income from overseas of 65,000 baht per month?

Yes, but in all 3 cases, actually proving the income wasn't the issue.  They didn't care that I "qualified" or not.  They wanted extra money or would not do their job.

Edited April 25, 2019 by JackThompson