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BANGKOK 17 June 2019 16:05
WaveHunter

Water Only Fasting...Should you do it / How should you do it.

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Destiny1990 said:

 

I read your post and right away i think your T level was higher when you was heavier and eating more unhealthy.

Then u did vegan and probably lost some weight then after 1 year you measured ur T level and it was really low.

Its the vegan superior diet that is surely partially responsible for ur lower T.

Anyway if i want to lower my weight by a diet program only then this will lower my T level also that’s the only way imho also otherwise my question would been answered already 🥴.

I wouldn't focus on T having an effect on body fat or visa versa.  I am aware of no scientific basis to assume any sort of relationship between T levels and diet. 

 

Unless you can find a scientific basis to support that notion, put it out of your mind.  Even if you do find something to support that idea, it's going to be of minor importance otherwise everybody would be well aware of it.

 

Focus instead on what there is a lot of scientific basis for believing, and what is a proven solution.  Cut excess carbs.  That's my opinion.

 

Edited by WaveHunter
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3 hours ago, WaveHunter said:

I wouldn't focus on T having an effect on body fat or visa versa.  I am aware of no scientific basis to assume any sort of relationship between T levels and diet. 

 

Unless you can find a scientific basis to support that notion, put it out of your mind.  Even if you do find something to support that idea, it's going to be of minor importance otherwise everybody would be well aware of it.

 

Focus instead on what there is a lot of scientific basis for believing, and what is a proven solution.  Cut excess carbs.  That's my opinion.

 

Google either low carb diet or high fat diet whatever diet they all come with lowering T levels side effects . ( its all over google)

No problem if you got natural high T levels or are doing injections T but in my situation I quickly might notice a Additional T decrease besides weight loss.

Anyway so I definitely won’t  go keto before starting with TRT.

The food plan i am doing now might just work.

moderated carbs, good fats, veggies , no booze, smaller daily food amounts, 16:8, chicken fish but still even if it  will loose weight then still it will lowering my  T as well.

 

otherwise show me a food diet plan that doesn’t affect in a  negative way a man his T levels. 😬

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Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, Destiny1990 said:

Google either low carb diet or high fat diet whatever diet they all come with lowering T levels side effects . ( its all over google)

No problem if you got natural high T levels or are doing injections T but in my situation I quickly might notice a Additional T decrease besides weight loss.

Anyway so I definitely won’t  go keto before starting with TRT.

The food plan i am doing now might just work.

moderated carbs, good fats, veggies , no booze, smaller daily food amounts, 16:8, chicken fish but still even if it  will loose weight then still it will lowering my  T as well.

 

otherwise show me a food diet plan that doesn’t affect in a  negative way a man his T levels. 😬

With all due respect, I really think you're attributing way too much importance on a diet's possible effect on T.  As I suggested before, you should search genuine science-based research (not simply conduct a general google search) for an answer to the relationship between nutrition and T.

 

Just to settle your mind on this, I took a few minutes this morning and did that for you.  What I found is, yes there appears to be a possible relationship, but an indirect and unclear one.

 

And what I found was basically what I've already suggested, and that is that carbs indirectly have a negative effect on T (according to the study I will link).  The study explores very complex metabolic relationships and has many significant limitations but my take-away from it is that a diet's effect on T is indirect, not direct in the following way.  Excessive carbs lead to increased insulin levels which in turn leads to obesity.  It is the OBESITY that can possibly result in lowered T, not the diet itself.

 

So to put it even more simply,  ANY diet that results in obesity may indirectly also lead to to lowered T, and any diet that reduces obesity may be able to indirectly raise T.  IMO, carb-restricted (keto) diets are the best way to deal with obesity, so such a diet is the most effective way to protect T.

 

If you are concerned about low T, see a doctor about doing TRT.  That's the simplest and most direct solution to protecting or optimizes T levels, but IMO, the last thing you would want to do is avoid keto in the meantime in light of carbs indirect effect on T.

 

I mean, controlling T and controlling obesity should be two different clearly defined goals; don't look for a single solution that will apply to both since neither will be optimal if you do.

  

Here's the link to the study, Testosterone-Associated Dietary Pattern Predicts Low Testosterone Levels and Hypogonadism

 

Warning:  You really need to read this report carefully and not just glance over it and jump to unfounded conclusions.

 

Edited by WaveHunter
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Posted (edited)

.

 

 

Edited by WaveHunter

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, WaveHunter said:

With all due respect, I really think you're attributing way too much importance on a diet's possible effect on T.  As I suggested before, you should search genuine science-based research (not simply conduct a general google search) for an answer to the relationship between nutrition and T.

 

Just to settle your mind on this, I took a few minutes this morning and did that for you.  What I found is, yes there appears to be a possible relationship, but an indirect and unclear one.

 

And what I found was basically what I've already suggested, and that is that carbs indirectly have a negative effect on T (according to the study I will link).  The study explores very complex metabolic relationships and has many significant limitations but my take-away from it is that a diet's effect on T is indirect, not direct in the following way.  Excessive carbs lead to increased insulin levels which in turn leads to obesity.  It is the OBESITY that can possibly result in lowered T, not the diet itself.

 

So to put it even more simply,  ANY diet that results in obesity may indirectly also lead to to lowered T, and any diet that reduces obesity may be able to indirectly raise T.  IMO, carb-restricted (keto) diets are the best way to deal with obesity, so such a diet is the most effective way to protect T.

 

If you are concerned about low T, see a doctor about doing TRT.  That's the simplest and most direct solution to protecting or optimizes T levels, but IMO, the last thing you would want to do is avoid keto in the meantime in light of carbs indirect effect on T.

 

I mean, controlling T and controlling obesity should be two different clearly defined goals; don't look for a single solution that will apply to both since neither will be optimal if you do.

  

Here's the link to the study, Testosterone-Associated Dietary Pattern Predicts Low Testosterone Levels and Hypogonadism

 

Warning:  You really need to read this report carefully and not just glance over it and jump to unfounded conclusions.

 

Interesting information indeed kinda hard to understand it but i copied this part: 

 

The study results suggest that individuals who prefer Western-style food (bread and pastries, dairy products, and desserts), eat out, and eat fewer homemade foods, noodles, and dark green vegetables are more likely to have an unhealthy body composition (e.g., increased visceral fat and decreased skeletal muscle mass) and low serum total T levels, and are likely to develop Hypogonadism.

 

So in that long report they keep mentioning several times that dairy products are bad for T and that noodles are good for T ?that doesn’t make much sense to me. Anyway lets do this i will loose 10 kilos in 3 months time so from 100 kg i will become 90 kg in August. Just by lowering my carbs and limiting my eating window 16:8 ( you know my diet already) then i will do another T level measurement and they will be atleast 15% lower then my T levels are now. I am totally convinced about it and i found not a single proof where it says a weight-loss diet will not lower your T levels.

Edited by Destiny1990

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Destiny1990 said:

Interesting information indeed kinda hard to understand it but i copied this part: 

 

The study results suggest that individuals who prefer Western-style food (bread and pastries, dairy products, and desserts), eat out, and eat fewer homemade foods, noodles, and dark green vegetables are more likely to have an unhealthy body composition (e.g., increased visceral fat and decreased skeletal muscle mass) and low serum total T levels, and are likely to develop Hypogonadism.

 

So in that long report they keep mentioning several times that dairy products are bad for T and that noodles are good for T ?that doesn’t make much sense to me. Anyway lets do this i will loose 10 kilos in 3 months time so from 100 kg i will become 90 kg in August. Just by lowering my carbs and limiting my eating window 16:8 ( you know my diet already) then i will do another T level measurement and they will be atleast 15% lower then my T levels are now. I am totally convinced about it and i found not a single proof where it says a weight-loss diet will not lower your T levels.

It sounds good that you seem to be considering a low-carb diet to be the priority.  Yes, check your T again after several months on that diet.  If it is low and you think you will feel better with a higher level, get injections.  That's the quickest way to find out if raised T will improve the quality of life for you.

 

Even with injections, it can take several months to "feel" any difference, so anything that is less effective like fine tuning your diet will take far longer to find out if it is having any effect at raising the number.  Injections will raise the numbers reliably in weeks, and within months you will either feel a difference, or you will not.

 

Raising your T level is no "magic bullet".  The one thing that it does do reliably, as Robblok said, is that it does help you maintain lean body mass as you age, and it's easier to add muscle mass if that is your goal, but other than that, I think a lot of people way over-hype it.   

 

You should know that for many guys, raised T ends up having no effect on how they "feel".  It is a very subjective thing.  The difference in how you feel is really the gauge on whether it's doing something positive for you; not the serum level of T in your system.  If you don't feel a difference, what's the point?

 

You will feel a profound difference in how you feel however, if you cut carbs and start to shed excess body fat, and you will feel it very quickly too.  All I can really say after experiencing TRT AND a modified (lower cab) diet is if I could only choose one or the other to improve the quality of my life,I would not hesitate to keeping a handle on carbs.

 

My advise; don't over-think all of this, just avoid processed sugar completely,  get your carbs down low enough to avoid unhealthy insulin levels while maintaining a healthy macro ratio (protein, fats, carbs), and everything else will take care of itself.  It's really not rocket-science 🙂

 

Edited by WaveHunter

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11 pages... too many...

 

Can someone say it in few sentences ?

 

Is it good to fast or not ?

 

Thanks.

 

 

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14 hours ago, WaveHunter said:

It sounds good that you seem to be considering a low-carb diet to be the priority.  Yes, check your T again after several months on that diet.  If it is low and you think you will feel better with a higher level, get injections.  That's the quickest way to find out if raised T will improve the quality of life for you.

 

Even with injections, it can take several months to "feel" any difference, so anything that is less effective like fine tuning your diet will take far longer to find out if it is having any effect at raising the number.  Injections will raise the numbers reliably in weeks, and within months you will either feel a difference, or you will not.

 

Raising your T level is no "magic bullet".  The one thing that it does do reliably, as Robblok said, is that it does help you maintain lean body mass as you age, and it's easier to add muscle mass if that is your goal, but other than that, I think a lot of people way over-hype it.   

 

You should know that for many guys, raised T ends up having no effect on how they "feel".  It is a very subjective thing.  The difference in how you feel is really the gauge on whether it's doing something positive for you; not the serum level of T in your system.  If you don't feel a difference, what's the point?

 

You will feel a profound difference in how you feel however, if you cut carbs and start to shed excess body fat, and you will feel it very quickly too.  All I can really say after experiencing TRT AND a modified (lower cab) diet is if I could only choose one or the other to improve the quality of my life,I would not hesitate to keeping a handle on carbs.

 

My advise; don't over-think all of this, just avoid processed sugar completely,  get your carbs down low enough to avoid unhealthy insulin levels while maintaining a healthy macro ratio (protein, fats, carbs), and everything else will take care of itself.  It's really not rocket-science 🙂

 

Testostorone by itself certainly is not going to help you lose weight a diet will do that better, but extra T from injections will make sure that what you lose is fat and not muscle. Because everyone always talks about losing weight while in reality its about losing fat.

 

I rather lose 5 kg of fat then 10 kg of weight where 6 of it is muscle.

 

As for feeling different from injecting T.. more energy perhaps in the gym it helps. But not as much as a real bodybuilding cycle of T. I have done both so I can compare. 

 

It helps certainly during a diet but it takes time to help. Partly because of the fact that it takes several weeks to reach the desired level of T. 

 

Bottom line cleaning up your diet is number one. As for dairy I eat a lot of it if protein powders count 🤣 otherwise not so much.

 

Yesterday after a workout that totally destroyed me I went all devil on my diet and took 250 ml of no flavor low fat yoghurt with 1 scoop of cassein and some musli. It was the best ever I was in heaven and my body loved it too. When I was done training it was like as if i was living in a fog, after that meal (cheat meal id say) i felt a lot better. Today I feel like a bus has ran over me.

 

I should really learn to control myself better and use lower weights.

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16 hours ago, Destiny1990 said:

Interesting information indeed kinda hard to understand it but i copied this part: 

 

The study results suggest that individuals who prefer Western-style food (bread and pastries, dairy products, and desserts), eat out, and eat fewer homemade foods, noodles, and dark green vegetables are more likely to have an unhealthy body composition (e.g., increased visceral fat and decreased skeletal muscle mass) and low serum total T levels, and are likely to develop Hypogonadism.

 

So in that long report they keep mentioning several times that dairy products are bad for T and that noodles are good for T ?that doesn’t make much sense to me. Anyway lets do this i will loose 10 kilos in 3 months time so from 100 kg i will become 90 kg in August. Just by lowering my carbs and limiting my eating window 16:8 ( you know my diet already) then i will do another T level measurement and they will be atleast 15% lower then my T levels are now. I am totally convinced about it and i found not a single proof where it says a weight-loss diet will not lower your T levels.

Then just try to do some weight lifting (if you are not already) with your diet. It will serve a great purpose in making sure your 10 KG are fat not muscle. I know I am a weight lifter but it has been proven its the most effective way to keep on muscle while dieting and to make sure you lose fat not muscle.

 

T injections im sure you thought about them are an option too. 

 

But the low T won't really affect your diet as much as you think (might have other problems). But for diet its all about how much you eat and what you eat. 

 

I like that you are a realist and take 3 months for it. Don't forget you need to lose more then 10kg if you go low carb as the first losses are water. 

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On 5/8/2019 at 9:35 AM, meinphuket said:

To all those who think they know it all;  water fasting is about fasting on food, Not water.

 

I just finished a 7 week fast, and I was by no means overweight, but am now rail thin. Whether good or not I don't know, but it was easy.

My only question is WHY ????

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Posted (edited)
13 hours ago, myjawe said:

11 pages... too many...

 

Can someone say it in few sentences ?

 

Is it good to fast or not ?

 

Thanks.

 

 

In a word, yes.  Is that simple enough for you?  

 

This thread was not intended to provide simple, pat answers!  It was intended as a forum for intelligent people to explore, discuss, and intelligently debate a controversial and complex subject, using science-based facts to do it, not unfounded personal opinions, and troll-like behavior that seems so prevalent in forums like this.

 

if you want simple, pat answers that really amount to nothing more than biased mis-information or half-truths, get your information from YouTube health gurus, or info-tainment sources like Oprah, or Dr. Oz.

 

Edited by WaveHunter
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Posted (edited)
On 5/12/2019 at 2:19 AM, WaveHunter said:

Hi JB,

I think the real key to a strong nutritional strategy is NOT to follow any prescribed mainstream diet to the letter, and instead customize a diet that is right specifically for you.  Everybody is unique and "one size does not fit all". 

 

Above all, no one should do weight loss diets.  If a person feels the need to "diet to lose weight", there is a bigger underlying problem that needs to be addressed and that is poor metabolic health.  A short term weight loss diet is like putting a band-aid on an infected would!  If you have a healthy long-term nutritional strategy, there should never be a need to "go on a weight-loss diet"    

 

Your concerns about lack of protein on a plant-based diet are unfounded; you need to do more research.  Getting enough protein as a Vegan is actually quite easy and there is no need for supplementation at all.  Of all the nutritional strategies I've tried, plant-based seemed the most complete.  The only thing that's lacking in a Vegan diet is really just Vitamin B-12.  Most serious Vegans I know (and I know a lot of them from living in Chinag Mai for a year LOL) simply get B-12 by self-injection.  It's cheap and not as scary as it sounds. 

 

Eating a plant-based diet is IMO an excellent way to eat.  My only issue with Vegan was it just felt too restrictive to me, and I felt I was missing something by not having animal product in my diet (plus, I LOVE steak LOL).  So, I incorporated some Paleo.  Now I think of myself as "Pagan".

 

Even though I think of myself as a Pagan, I now also embrace the concept of being keto-adapted (yes, Paleo, Vegan and Keto can work together).  I think it is important (for me), not only for health reasons, but for cycling performance reasons as well. 

 

FYI, I am a VERY cautious person by nature.  If there was any reason that I felt keto was dangerous, I wouldn't be doing it.  I feel confident of that it is safe because I paid my dues and researched the subject well. 

 

You need to do the same thing because everybody is unique; what works for me, may not work for you.  What is right for me, may be wrong for you.  One size does not fit all, but I can say confidently that if you are in reasonably good health, a ketogenic diet is not unsafe.  My best advice is to find a doctor who is truly knowledgable about nutrition (which is no easy task these days), and seek his/her advice after having some blood tests done.   🙂

 

I am not going to try and convince you that keto is a good thing, nor should you let others on this forum attempt to convince you that it is bad.  That's a choice you should make for yourself and it should be based on information you get from genuine science based sources like PubMed and scientific journals, not YouTube and health blogs that merely rehash third-party interpretations of original research, and more often than not result in mis-information and half-truths. 

 

Don't be afraid of reading scientific research reports or journals.  There's a lot that may go over your head, but if you use your brain, and have the patience to google for things you don't understand, sources like those can give you everything you need to make a well-educated decision, ands feel confident you have made the right choice.

 

 

Thanks WaveHunter for your reply and advice. 

 

I am not trying to lose any weight now but reduce some belly fat and increase some muscle (upper body and/or legs).

 

B12 I am already taking. 

 

Protein - well it depends on how much I require. Looking at the literature, it seems that being older (60) and athletic means I need more than a sedentary & younger person needs. Some sources suggest that I need to take in around 1.8 - 2.0g/kg body weight. So for me that means around 144 - 160g per day. Easily achieved if eating meat, fish, eggs, etc. But not so easy if following a vegan diet. I found myself feeling weak and not recovering well after exercise, so I went back to consuming whey protein isolate and found I felt better. Hence I now want to find a vegan protein supplement like the sacha inchi powder (60% protein). And it's cheaper but I guess the amino acid profile may not be as good as the isolate, though I get protein from other foods, so I don't see any need to get into too much detail on amino acids. 

 

I do do research (reading pubmed abstracts) but I find that many times the information varies considerably between sources, (and I know there is a lot of "bad science" around) so then you still have to make a personal decision about which research/advice you think is sound and trustworthy.

 

"Find a doctor who is truly knowledgable" - I trust the advice of the cycling doctor Dr Gabe Mirkin https://www.drmirkin.com because (a) he's a medical doctor, (b) he's a cyclist, (c) he's a lot older than I am and still cycling lots, (d) he is living proof that a plant-based diet works, (e) he bases his advice on scientific articles, (f) the advice he gives is free and he is not trying to sell anything. 

 

Returning to the topic of dietary fibre and the keto diet - perhaps not relevant for you but others - is this from the UK:

 

Dietary fibre is found in cereal foods, including bread, beans, lentils, fruit & vegetables
It cannot be broken down by human digestive enzymes
In the UK most people do not eat enough fibre (the average intake is 17.2/day for women and 20.1g/day for men). The recommended average intake for adults is 30g per day.
A low fibre intake is associated with constipation and some gut diseases such as bowel cancer
A high fibre diet can help reduce cholesterol, reduce the risk of diabetes and can help protect against overweight

https://www.nutrition.org.uk/nutritionscience/nutrients-food-and-ingredients/dietary-fibre.html 

 

And this from the USA:

 

The American Heart Association Eating Plan suggests eating a variety of food fiber sources. Total dietary fiber intake should be 25 to 30 grams a day from food, not supplements. Currently, dietary fiber intakes among adults in the United States average about 15 grams a day. That's about half the recommended amount.

https://www.ucsfhealth.org/education/increasing_fiber_intake/

 

The above numbers concern the "average person" not just people following a keto diet. And I reckon that if the typical keto diet is low in plant-based foods then it will be lower in fibre than the average person's non-keto diet. 

 

Furthermore, one of the main consequences of inadequate dietary fibre can be colorectal cancer and this kind of cancer is a major cause of death in many countries. And my understanding is that cancers in general can take many years to develop. So it seems plausible to me that many people following a keto diet may be at higher risk of getting colorectal cancer but may not see the cancer until some years down the road. 

 

You mentioned blood tests, so I am curious to know if any of these blood tests provide early warning signs of colorectal cancer? Just because your blood pressure, lipid levels, sugar/insulin levels, etc, look good, does not mean you don't have cancer growing in your gut, does it? 

 

Finally, since I last posted, I have come to learn that although you say you are a competitive cyclist, you are doping on T. That's against the rules of competitive sports. It's cheating! Shame on you. 

 

JB

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by JungleBiker
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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, JungleBiker said:

...Finally, since I last posted, I have come to learn that although you say you are a competitive cyclist, you are doping on T. That's against the rules of competitive sports. It's cheating! Shame on you. ...

Regarding my use of T; firstly I am not a professional cyclist, just to set the record straight. 

 

No offense, but you seem to be ignorant of the fact that testosterone is not simply a performance enhancing drug but is also prescribed to treat certain medical conditions.

 

My use of injectable testosterone is to treat a such a condition and is done under the supervision of a physician.  The amount that is injected is not within the range that would be considered to be "performance enhancing"...not even close!

 

Furthermore, If I were to compete in a sanctioned event where I needed to be blood tested I would be allowed to do so.  All that is required is getting a "Therapeutic Use Exemption" from WADA (World Anti-Doping Agency).  https://www.wada-ama.org/en/what-we-do/science-medical/therapeutic-use-exemptions

 

Instead of making an unfounded and prejudiced comment as you have done, you should have considered that my use of T might have been medically justified instead of simply assuming I am, in your words, "a cheat" !  You owe me an apology.

 

Edited by WaveHunter

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Posted (edited)

HOW MANY MEALS PER DAY REQUIRED FOR ABSORPTION OF DAILY PROTEIN REQUIREMENTS?

 

NOTE:  This is a long post and is really directed to a few people that I’ve been discussing this with through PM’s.  I’m posting it publicly because what I’ve learned is pretty eye-opening and should be of interest to everyone who is really curious about protein metabolism, and with the specific question of how much protein the body can make use of from a single meal.  I'm sorry that It is a long post but it needs to be in order to properly explain the underlying science.

 

In regard to previous discussion concerning the amount of protein that can be assimilated in a single meal, I’ve been wrestling with the notion of whether or not my own One-Meal-Per-Day (OMAD) strategy can provide sufficient protein for an active lifestyle or not.  By “active” lifestyle, I mean one that involves an average daily calorie burn of about  2500 kcal (1500kcals for Basal Metabolic Rate + 1000 kcals for athletic activity).  I am also assuming that the total amount of protein required per day is somewhere between 1.5 - 2.0 grams per kg of lean body mass (for my BMR and level of activity).

 

First of all, regarding the total amount of protein needed daily, The recommended dietary allowance (RDA) for protein is 0.36g/lbs of bodyweight which for an average individual weighing between 150-180 pounds would be 55-70 grams of protein per day.

 

[https://books.google.co.th/books?id=nbR80wOZGz8C&pg=PT184&lpg=PT184&dq=0.36g/lbs+of+body+weight+RDA&source=bl&ots=CTijDAO15o&sig=ACfU3U3bFqZhuKQt0HhI16v1YLSxn6p_Uw&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiPwtjcr5_iAhWLr48KHUcyCdYQ6AEwCXoECDAQAQ#v=onepage&q&f=false]

 

However, this is not ideal for the majority of the population and most people actually need more, especially if you’re exercising…but not as much as many people believe.

 

In general, the optimal amount of protein tends to be somewhere between 0.7-1.0 g/lbs or 1.5-2.0 g/kgs of lean body mass (LBM), which for the same average individual weighing between 150-180 pounds would be 110-160 grams of protein at a minimum. There are no seeming benefits to eating more than 0.8 g/lbs of LBM, even when trying to build muscle. You definitely don’t need to be eating above 1.0g/lbs of LBM as you’ll simply waste that protein. 

 

[https://mennohenselmans.com/the-myth-of-1glb-optimal-protein-intake-for-bodybuilders/]

 

I think the body can actually assimilate all protein required on a daily basis from one-meal-per-day (OMAD) though it may be slightly borderline for an extremely active person.  I definitely think that more than 30 grams of protein per meal can be used by the body for protein building blocks in the form of amino acids and for triggering protein synthesis, and the discussion that follows is why I believe this.  

 

Id’ welcome feedback, both positive and negative, in the form of intelligent and informed comment and debate that includes references to underlying science-based facts…not simply opinion or conjecture.  

 

So, to start, the commonly accepted view is that your body can not assimilate any more than 20-30 grams of protein per meal, and this is based on the view that the body can not store dietary protein.  I don't agree with this notion and this post explains why.  

 

It’s mostly true that the body can not store protein.  To store protein requires that it be converted to glucose through gluconeogenesis first.  That glucose will then either be burned off as energy or if you’ve already met your daily caloric needs, stored as fat.

 

Gluconeogenesis is driven by demand, not supply.  In the short term, an influx of increased protein supply won’t trigger gluconeogenesis of your own muscle tissue because there is no demand there. The body will have met its need for amino acids and thus doesn’t require additional glucose. Temporary protein stores fluctuate throughout the day and they’re connected to the feeding and fasting cycles.

 

[ http://archive.unu.edu/unupress/food2/UID07E/UID07E05.HTM ]

 

One of the main arguments in favor of splitting total total protein requirements over several meals is that you have to keep muscle protein synthesis (MPS) active by frequent spiking throughout the day with multiple meals because there is only a limited amount of protein that can be absorbed in a given meal.  

 

The argument continues with the notion that when you digest protein, it gets broken down into amino acids that will be transported into the bloodstream to be used as building blocks. There are a limited amount of transporter cells and receptors in the small intestine which restricts how many amino acids can be moved into the blood. Hence the theory that your body can only absorb a certain amount of protein in one meal.

 

Certain proteins are absorbed faster than others which allows the amino acids to be used more quickly as well. However, there are many other factors that determine protein absorption such as the pH levels of the gut, the permeability of the intestinal lining, protein sensitivity, and the presence of hormones related to gastric emptying

 

[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12646289]

 

The general consensus is that you can only absorb 30 grams of protein per meal and you need to spread your protein intake across multiple meals to maximize protein synthesis over the 24-hour period. However, it doesn’t mean that eating fewer meals with higher amounts of protein would make you waste away that protein. Humans in nature wouldn’t have a steady intake of protein either yet they function perfectly well.

 

This is where things get interesting!  Amino acids and some peptides are able to self-regulate their time in the intestines. For example, the digestive hormone cholecystokinin (CCK) can slow down the contraction speed of intestines in response to protein intake. 

 

[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17940422 ] 

 

CCK gets released when you eat dietary protein and it slows down your digestion as to absorb it better. 

 

[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20938986] 

 

778522818_snapshot_2019-05-16at11_46_42AM.jpg.b6f0a04c340d39d95fb1854c7cba5c42.jpg

Here is a visual depiction showing CCK control of gallbladder contractions

 

If you were to absorb protein too quickly, your liver wouldn’t be able to maintain a steady stream of amino acids into the blood over the 24-hour period because you’ll burn them all for energy.   Even if you’ve eaten a large piece of steak with over 60 grams of protein, you wouldn’t be converting those amino acids into energy immediately anyway. Because of CCK and the generally slower speed of digesting steak, the protein from that steak will be digested over the course of many hours and your body will slowly assimilate those nutrients without wasting them away.

 

A Mayo Clinic study found that, on average, it takes about 24-35 hours for food to fully travel through the digestive tract and be completely absorbed  [https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3023168 ]

 

  • As soon as you consume something with calories, you’re entering into a fed state and your body’s going to be breaking down that food. 

 

  • After a few hours of digestion, your body goes into the post-absorptive stage, wherein the nutrients of the last meal are still circulating in the bloodstream. This can last up to 8-12 hours and that’s when you’ll truly enter a fasted state.

 

This is where things start getting very interesting!  The intestines will contract according to the speed at which it can digest food. If they can’t handle any more protein, then they won’t waste this precious resource away but will simply slow down gastric emptying. After a few moments, when you’ve digested the protein you already consumed, the intestines will then move the remaining protein down the line so to say and continue absorption.

 

If you eat more protein than your body needs right now to trigger protein synthesis, it slows down the digestion of the excess and then gradually releases the amino acids into the blood over the course of the coming hours when your protein synthesis gets lower. Some amino acids can even be temporarily stored inside muscle cells for future use whether for maintaining amino acid homeostasis or for energy production. 

 

[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK26882/]

 

The reason it’s thought that you can only absorb 30 grams of protein in one sitting is that you only need about 20-30 grams of protein to trigger muscle protein synthesis and actually build muscle [https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19056590]. Any more than 40 grams doesn’t stimulate MPS further.

 

1854471279_snapshot_2019-05-16at11_59_03AM.jpg.c29f68c75959f10efdfce12ea1cbc5e7.jpg

Muscle Protein Synthesis Peaks at 20-40 grams of protein

 

Triggering muscle protein synthesis is mostly regulated through leucine, which is the main anabolic amino acid. It requires about 2-3 grams of leucine to activate MPS and generally, you can get that amount of leucine from 20-30 grams of a complete protein. That’s where this rationale originated from.

 

However, this doesn’t really tell you much about how much protein you can end up absorbing in one meal. It just tells you that if you want to keep the muscle building signal activated more frequently then you’d have to spike muscle protein synthesis more frequently as well. There’s no indication of how it affects muscle protein synthesis over the 24-hour period.

 

However, the stimulation for muscle growth after resistance training will remain elevated for a long period of time. Studies have found that the potentiation of exercise-induced increases in myofibrillar protein synthesis and AKT/mTOR signaling by protein consumption is sustained for at least 24 hours post-workout [https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21289204]. Even if you stimulate MPS twice (2 meals) within those 24 hours compared to 3 or more times (meals) you can still build muscle if you eat enough protein within that time frame.

 

Additionally, more frequent spikes of protein synthesis won’t necessarily mean more muscle growth either because if you just eat 30 grams of protein then there aren’t many amino acids in that small meal to build new tissue either. If you were to eat that large steak again with 60 grams of protein, you’ll activate protein synthesis and you’ll have more than enough building blocks as well. So, in theory, it could be that less frequent spikes in muscle protein synthesis but with a higher amount of protein could potentially build more muscle just because of the higher availability of amino acids that could be absorbed much more efficiently.

 

Eating fewer meals and consuming more than 30 grams of protein in one sitting with intermittent fasting has not been shown to have any negative consequences in terms of lean tissue maintenance. One study done on women who ate their daily protein requirements of 79g of protein in either a single meal or 4 meals saw no difference in terms of protein metabolism and absorption. 

 

[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10867039].

 

Several intermittent fasting studies have also shown that eating your entire days' protein in a 4-hour eating window has had no negative effects on muscle preservation

 

When it comes to body composition and fat loss, then meal timing has been shown to be irrelevant as intermittent fasting doesn’t slow down your metabolism or make you lose muscle.

 

Recent research indicates that, when fasted, we can use up to 3.5g/kg/day of protein and breakdown and metabolize up to 4.3g/kg/day.

 

[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/28807333].

 

This makes sense in an evolutionary context where would be primed to use a lot of protein after going without and then making up for lost time after a successful hunt.

 

Eating 3 or more small meals a day may elevate muscle protein synthesis more frequently, but more frequent surges of muscle protein synthesis won’t necessarily mean more muscle growth because what matters most is how much protein your body ends up absorbing over the course of the 24-hour period. If you’re doing intermittent fasting with 2 meals a day, you can spike muscle protein synthesis twice a day and that’s going to be more than enough to force your body to grow. What matters more for muscle growth is the training stimulus and adaptive signal.

 

In fact, being in a fasted state makes you more protein sparing and anti-catabolic by increasing growth hormone and ketones. Higher levels of growth hormone and IGF-1 can stimulate muscle protein synthesis and it definitely improves the body’s sensitivity to protein intake.

 

[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9022951].

 

You’ll end up absorbing your food better because it’s perceived as more scarce.

 

So, simply put…splitting daily protein intake between two meals seems to be optimal and returns diminish thereafter.  OMAD is probably fine if daily protein requirements are for a sedentary person, however there is no need IMO to go beyond 2 meals per day no matte how high your daily protein requirements might be.

Edited by CharlieH
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9 hours ago, robblok said:

Then just try to do some weight lifting (if you are not already) with your diet. It will serve a great purpose in making sure your 10 KG are fat not muscle. I know I am a weight lifter but it has been proven its the most effective way to keep on muscle while dieting and to make sure you lose fat not muscle.

 

T injections im sure you thought about them are an option too. 

 

But the low T won't really affect your diet as much as you think (might have other problems). But for diet its all about how much you eat and what you eat. 

 

I like that you are a realist and take 3 months for it. Don't forget you need to lose more then 10kg if you go low carb as the first losses are water. 

You’re right about using weights there isn’t really an escape if want to loose weight in a correct way.

Problem is that by using weights it will make sticking with a strict diet plan harder. I believe by using weights it boost T level a bit while if do only a diet plan with minimal exercise it just is going to lower T thus resulting in a lower libido.

Anyway 10 Kilos 3 Months is a realistic time frame and way better loosing weight slowly than quickly.

So okey I will do 3 x 5 push-ups now and 3 x 8 squats without weights.

Don’t  laugh pls.😃

 

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