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WaveHunter

Water Only Fasting...Should you do it / How should you do it.

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43 minutes ago, Destiny1990 said:

In all openness wouldn’t you be feeling a lot less positive on this fasting and one meal a day food plan without doing T shots? lets be fair here.

By the way i got nothing against T shots.

Oh, and BTW, I have decided to go to two-meals-per-day; no more OMAD for me.  I posted a long-assed post earlier today outlining my reasons.  It simply has to do with protein absorption though.  I still will continue monthly 72 hour fasts in the interest of staying keto-adapted and promoting autophagy.

 

I hope you understand that I am not promoting my nutritional strategy to anyone else, including you.  Simply put, it works for ME. 

 

What I am promoting to you and anyone else who cares to listen, is simply to find a long-term strategy that works best for YOU.  It took me a number of years of exploring different ones like Vegan, Paleo, and variations of them to finally figure out that none of them really work out-of-the-box, and the real key is to adopt the best elements of all of them into a strategy that is right specifically for you. 

 

It shouldn't be a short term goal of "going on a diet" to shed a few pounds or you will spend your life going from one crazy fad or in-vogue diet to the next.  Instead you should adopt a sound, science-based long-term nutritional strategy for optimum metabolic health that will keep you healthy and happy for the rest of your life.  That's the way I see it at least.

 

Edited by WaveHunter
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51 minutes ago, Destiny1990 said:

In all openness wouldn’t you be feeling a lot less positive on this fasting and one meal a day food plan without doing T shots? lets be fair here.

By the way i got nothing against T shots.

BTW, the comment of mine you quoted:

 

"...Grow up and stop talking trash.  Have you nothing better to do with your time than make mean-spirited, unfounded, and troll-like comments?  Don't bother answering; the answer is more than obvious.  This conversation is over.... "

 

was NOT directed at you.  I hope you understand that, and I'm not sure why you are quoting it ??

 

Edited by WaveHunter

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44 minutes ago, WaveHunter said:

BTW, the comment of mine you quoted:

 

"...Grow up and stop talking trash.  Have you nothing better to do with your time than make mean-spirited, unfounded, and troll-like comments?  Don't bother answering; the answer is more than obvious.  This conversation is over.... "

 

was NOT directed at you.  I hope you understand that, and I'm not sure why you are quoting it ??

 

I know 😃..but since ur discussion with him  it was about T so than since i am concerned about that too I bounced inside.

I understand that you only restore T to optimum levels or lets say to healthy levels anything higher would be foolish.

But understand me too i am saying loosing weight will lower T so than to restore it is tempting.

i am doing 16:8 with less carbs now and maybe next month try 5:2 for a month.

Will try loose 10 kilos first and check T afterwards is the plan.

Will keep you posted.

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28 minutes ago, Destiny1990 said:

I know 😃..but since ur discussion with him  it was about T so than since i am concerned about that too I bounced inside.

I understand that you only restore T to optimum levels or lets say to healthy levels anything higher would be foolish.

But understand me too i am saying loosing weight will lower T so than to restore it is tempting.

i am doing 16:8 with less carbs now and maybe next month try 5:2 for a month.

Will try loose 10 kilos first and check T afterwards is the plan.

Will keep you posted.

Yes, please do keep me posted; I'm really interested to see how you do 🙂 

 

As regard the T though, I wouldn't worry about it.  Lots of things can make your T level drop.  Simply training hard in the gym or in athletics can and usually will make it plummet, and most people aren't even aware of it by how they feel. 

 

There are times when I intentionally stop injecting for weeks just because I think it's wise to give my body a break, or I'm traveling a lot and don't want the hassle of bring the stuff on international trips, and I have to say that I feel no worse for it.  In all honesty, I sometimes wonder whether all I'm getting is a placebo effect from it.  Fact is, if it weren't so cheap to buy and to do the blood testing here in Thailand, I would probably discontinue using it I think!  If you had asked me a year ago, I probably would not have said that, but that's the way I feel about it now.

 

As I said before, I think there is just too much hype put out by the pharmaceutical companies and TRT clinics about all the supposed positive benefits from TRT, and it's not hard to see that their motive is primarily profit-driven, and not so much the health and welfare of the patient.

 

Edited by WaveHunter

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13 hours ago, Destiny1990 said:

You’re right about using weights there isn’t really an escape if want to loose weight in a correct way.

Problem is that by using weights it will make sticking with a strict diet plan harder. I believe by using weights it boost T level a bit while if do only a diet plan with minimal exercise it just is going to lower T thus resulting in a lower libido.

Anyway 10 Kilos 3 Months is a realistic time frame and way better loosing weight slowly than quickly.

So okey I will do 3 x 5 push-ups now and 3 x 8 squats without weights.

Don’t  laugh pls.😃

 

Why would i laugh about what others do for training. We all need to start somewhere the weaker you are the more progress you can make. Its even possible then to lose fat and gain muscle for beginners. Just keep your protein at about 1,5g per kg of bodyweight. You need more protein to keep your muscles if your trying to lose weight.

 

If you can try to increase weights reps ect, progressive overload builds (and keeps) muscle. Yes you might be a big more hungry though I am usually not hungry after a workout. 

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6 hours ago, Destiny1990 said:

I know 😃..but since ur discussion with him  it was about T so than since i am concerned about that too I bounced inside.

I understand that you only restore T to optimum levels or lets say to healthy levels anything higher would be foolish.

But understand me too i am saying loosing weight will lower T so than to restore it is tempting.

i am doing 16:8 with less carbs now and maybe next month try 5:2 for a month.

Will try loose 10 kilos first and check T afterwards is the plan.

Will keep you posted.

Its not that injecting T (TRT not bodybuilding doses) would not help you during you diet. But not in the way you think. It would not speed up the loss of fat, rather it would help you hold on to muscle and even build a bit if your T was real low and you start doing weightlifting exercises. 

 

But its not something you really feel, i have used in the past far more then TRT when i first came here and saw it all available i wanted to try. So i did 500 (a week) mg of test for 12 weeks. That is something you feel (after a few weeks and because its the first time) and then you build muscle. TRT is much lower and you don't feel much. Does not mean its not there it just not as big a difference then. (for muscle building). 

 

On TRT the dosage is much lower still I am happy i tried it (bodybuilder doses) i know its effects and can talk about it with experience not just about what I have read. You still need to work your ass off in a gym, you still need to eat good to maximise muscle gain. There have been studies that just injecting bodybuilding doses gains muscles without training. But its not as much as what would have been gained without.

 

Anyway don't expect that on TRT but it will help in the gym but not hugely. But at our age we can use every advantage we can get.

 

Anyway I don't compete and people can call me a cheat for having used it and using TRT now... and even this period I am using peptides for HGH to help me lose more fat (not sure if its working or not as my weight went up.. could be water or muscle). I don't really care now.. just going to wait it out as how i look is good enough now. I want more but know it won't happen soon. The last bits of fat are the hardest.

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@JungleBiker

 

Yes using testosterone and competing is cheating. Unless of course you stay under the allowed levels. I have cheated for real using bodybuilder doses, I always wanted to try and I did. Still happy I did as now I can talk about it from experience not from what i read and repeating what people say. 

 

Its been a years since I done it but I remember the first time quite well as its the best time. I tried a second time but it just did not give the same results at all. That is why you see huge doses for bodybuilding. You need more and more if you want to get past a certain size. Not my goal so no need.

 

I train at home (nobody to impress but myself) and compete with myself and nobody else. So I don't really care what people think. Now on TRT and since 1 1/2 week on peptides GHRP 2 too. To see if it helps. The peptides have helped me in one way. My sleep has improved a bit. I feel more rested. (not every day). 

 

I don't get it why you came down so hard on Wavehunter, he was not competing professionally or as an amateur. He was just doing TrT and those dosages stay within normal limits. Sure it helps but it just puts him on equal foot with a healthy person.. or to be honest just above one. Depending a bit on the levels. But its not that much of an advantage. But its a great advantage for general life. 

 

My T was low, and Thyroid too, fixed the T with Trt, did not fix the thyroid as those medicine kept me from sleeping. I tried quite a few shortcuts / drugs to lose extra fat. The reality is some do work, but only if your diet and exercise are great already. Then they can help speed things up or break through certain plateau's. I am now again at a plateau (i think) but will see if I can add more cardio to break through it.

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Forget about fasting, dieting, or any other of the du jour antics.

 

The science is to eat a well balanced diet, involving clean foods, exercise, breather clean air, don't smoke or over indulge, ...everything in moderation.  Easy peasy.

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4 hours ago, robblok said:

@JungleBiker

 

...I don't get it why you came down so hard on Wavehunter, he was not competing professionally or as an amateur. He was just doing TrT and those dosages stay within normal limits. Sure it helps but it just puts him on equal foot with a healthy person.. or to be honest just above one. Depending a bit on the levels. But its not that much of an advantage. But its a great advantage for general life. ...

@JungleBiker

Well put Robblok.  Perhaps I over-reacted to JungleBiker's post but it is incredibly insulting to call someone a cheat without even knowing them or anything about their medical condition or their competitive intentions.  I race purely as a recreational rider.  Most of the people I race against and have gotten to know on Strava know I am on TRT.  None of them have ever accused me of cheating when I beat them or when I achieve a PR, so what gives you that right when you don't even know me?

 

Now, if I were riding as a professional or an elite amateur, where even the very slightest competitive advantage might be the difference between winning and loosing, then I could see your point, and so does the USADA.  I'm under no illusion that, even though I am sure I could get a recreational competitor exemption, it would probably be revoked if I started winning a lot of races, but the fact is that I have no interest in competing at that level and if I ever did have that intention, I would not even seek an exemption but simply quit TRT (which I'm probably going to do anyway because I no longer believe in its' efficacy.) 

 

Even though my use of T is to treat a medical condition and the dosage is hardly performance enhancing at less then 100mg /week (performance enhancing dosages are 500mg +), I concede it could provide a VERY slight advantage on the professional or elite amateur level. 

 

For instance, I use 75mg of T per week and my serum T right now is around 700ng/dL which is in the normal range for my age group.  Let's say I'm competing against someone who has a natural T of the same level.  When training hard there is usually a slight drop in T and also in red blood cells.  For me, that drop will be slightly less but the competitive advantage would be so low that it would only be significant in extremely high level competition, if that.

 

And on the other hand, you should consider that a medical condition that puts me at a disadvantage even though I train just as hard as my competitors is equally unfair, which is why TUE's exist.

 

Anyway, I race for the pleasure of racing and for the camaraderie of riding with people I enjoy being around.  They don't give me sh*t about my TRT; neither should you.

 

Edited by WaveHunter

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4 hours ago, wisperone said:

... The science is to eat a well balanced diet, involving clean foods, exercise, breather clean air, don't smoke or over indulge, ...everything in moderation.  Easy peasy. ...

I agree with everything you said in selected quote above, except you haven't defined what a well balanced diet is.  Aside from fasting, which is more to do with general metabolic health than nutrition, this thread is about exploring just what constitutes a well balanced diet.  So, what is your definition?

Edited by WaveHunter
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On 5/8/2019 at 12:57 PM, lagavulin1 said:

Ketogenisis is well described and understood in the literature. I don't argue with your article. 

I am puzzled though why you have failed to mention the ketogenic Diets which seems to me a much more interesting way of living (apart from having to stop beer). Do you perceive any additional benefits from fasting? 

Water fasting and ketogenic diets are similar in nature but serve different purposes.  The biggest distinction is that water fasting should not be considered a “weight loss diet”, except to treat extreme complications of metabolic disease (I.e.: type 2 diabetes).

 

I am not obese yet I periodically fast.  I am a competitive road cyclist and I fast for the purpose keto-adaptation.  What I mean is that I train my body to be better able to use stored body fat as a alternative fuel source in situations where my glycogen stores start to become depleted like intense hill-climbing or extended rides.

 

This glycogen-depleted condition is referred to as “bonking” by athletes.  The usual remedy is to use carb-rich (sugar) sports gels during competition but these products have serious drawbacks and must be heavily consumed during competition which is far from ideal.

 

Training your body to be keto-adapted through periodic fasting improves the body’s ability to quickly access and use stored body fat as fuel, thus lessening the effects of glycogen deprivation.

 

A good analogy is to liken it to the way hybrid car engines can use both gasoline and electricity as alternative fuel sources.

 

It works well in spite of what many close-minded and uninformed naysayers will argue.  More and more endurance athletes are embracing the concept of Keto-adaptation through periodic fasting.

 

This isn’t of value only to athletes.  Anyone can benefit from keto-adaptation because it improves the body’s ability to burn stored fat, not to mention it also promotes accelerated autophagy (but that’s another topic you should explore).

 

There is a lot of sound underlying science to this which you can learn by googling.  There is also a lot of health-guru type BS out there too so you need to be careful about your information sources.

 

In essence, water fasting is a quick and sure means to becoming keto-adapted.  Periodic 72 hour fasts will allow it to happen.  Hormonal pathways of fat metabolism are redefined, and those changes “stick” after the fast is completed.  Personally I find a frequency of monthly or bi-monthly fasts are sufficient to maintain keto-adaptation.

 

Ketogenic diets will allow for this to happen too.  The reason I  choose fasting over ketogenic diets is that I need a reasonable level of carbs in my regular diet, and a ketogenic diets requires restricting carbs below 50 grams or so per day to activate ketosis; just too low for my needs.

 

Theres a lot to be said for ketogenic diets and for water fasting, but just don’t fall for the notion of water-fasting as a weight loss diet.  It can work but if you are a relatively active person, the pitfalls of fasting any longer than say, 3-5 days outweigh the benefits IMO (unless you have life-threatening complications of obesity (advanced stage Diabetes 2) and are doing it under a doctors supervision.  

 

If if you are in reasonably good health (See your doctor and get blood tests), a 3 day water fast is not going to do any harm, and can be one of the healthiest things you can do for your metabolic health IMHO.

 

 

Edited by WaveHunter
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It's really weird just finished another 3 day water fast (very strict water only) and not even lost one gram. I have been intermittent fasting for 30 years and only eat once a day but I swear it's genetic as my father was at least 70 kilo more than me. Frustrating it is.

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2 minutes ago, BobBKK said:

It's really weird just finished another 3 day water fast (very strict water only) and not even lost one gram. I have been intermittent fasting for 30 years and only eat once a day but I swear it's genetic as my father was at least 70 kilo more than me. Frustrating it is.

been there done that and feel for you....for the past 4 months, one meal a day, green salad, tomatoes olive oil little vinegar, no alcohol (only water), no smoke, walk 4-5 kms a day and didn't lose one damn ounce/gram

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38 minutes ago, BobBKK said:

It's really weird just finished another 3 day water fast (very strict water only) and not even lost one gram. I have been intermittent fasting for 30 years and only eat once a day but I swear it's genetic as my father was at least 70 kilo more than me. Frustrating it is.

How much water were you consuming daily, and how much were you excreting?  In other words, temporary water retention could be what's going on.  It happens often for many people, especially if they're not keto-adapted prior to the fast. 

 

Also, what about bowel movements during and after the fast?  Another factor to consider possibly.

 

You do know that ketosis is only just starting to kick in by the third day, right?  Your actual net loss of fat stores on a 3 day fast should only be about 1.5 pounds at most after refeeding.

Edited by Kohsamida

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Wondering how fermented foods may be related to the benefits of any sort of fasting. My issue is tiredness, although seems better lately. I received results about 3 weeks ago from a stool sample i had submitted for testing. One of the results was low number of microbes.

so everyday I’ve taken 1 or 2 spoonfuls of various kinds of kimchi, plain yogurt, or sauerkraut.  Also do occasional kefir and kombucha.  At this point I’m doing 16:8 and wondering about in the future, the 72hr minimum. Hoping I can get my energy back.  Any helpful insights are welcome. Thanks. 

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