Jump to content
BANGKOK 27 June 2019 02:53
WaveHunter

Water Only Fasting...Should you do it / How should you do it.

Recommended Posts

6 hours ago, WaveHunter said:

Regarding my use of T; firstly I am not a professional cyclist, just to set the record straight. 

 

 

The doping rules apply to amateurs and professionals.

 

6 hours ago, WaveHunter said:

 

No offense, but you seem to be ignorant of the fact that testosterone is not simply a performance enhancing drug but is also prescribed to treat certain medical conditions.

 

 

No, I am not ignorant of that fact.  

 

6 hours ago, WaveHunter said:

 

My use of injectable testosterone is to treat a such a condition and is done under the supervision of a physician.  

 

That is irrelavent unless you have a "Theraputic Use Exemption" (TUE).

 

Do you have a TUE? 

 

 

6 hours ago, WaveHunter said:

 

The amount that is injected is not within the range that would be considered to be "performance enhancing"...not even close!

 

 

Obviously the amount you inject has a positive effect on your body otherwise why would you be injecting it? 

 

Are you willing to tell us how much you inject and what is considered to be the "range that would be considered to be "performance enhancing"". That is something I am ignorant about. I did not know there were levels of injected exogenous T that do not enhance performance. 

 

6 hours ago, WaveHunter said:

 

Furthermore, If I were to compete in a sanctioned event where I needed to be blood tested I would be allowed to do so.  All that is required is getting a "Therapeutic Use Exemption" from WADA (World Anti-Doping Agency).  https://www.wada-ama.org/en/what-we-do/science-medical/therapeutic-use-exemptions

 

 

 

Yes, I am well aware of TUEs, and I know that in the case of T, they are not easy to get. My guess is that you would not qualify for a TUE and therefore you would be guilty of cheating. 

 

And even if an event is not subjected to blood testing, it would still be cheating.  

 

6 hours ago, WaveHunter said:

 

Instead of making an unfounded and prejudiced comment as you have done, you should have considered that my use of T might have been medically justified instead of simply assuming I am, in your words, "a cheat" !  You owe me an apology.

 

 

It is not a question of whether your use of T is medically justified, it is a question of whether you qualify for a TUE for your use of T when racing competitively. If not, then you should not be racing. 

 

I don't care if you inject T but I do care that if by doing so you might have an unfair advantage over me in a competitive cycling race, regardless of whether it is a sanctioned race or not. 

 

If you can get a TUE then I will apologise. 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, JungleBiker said:

 

The doping rules apply to amateurs and professionals.

 

 

No, I am not ignorant of that fact.  

 

That is irrelavent unless you have a "Theraputic Use Exemption" (TUE).

 

Do you have a TUE? 

 

 

 

Obviously the amount you inject has a positive effect on your body otherwise why would you be injecting it? 

 

Are you willing to tell us how much you inject and what is considered to be the "range that would be considered to be "performance enhancing"". That is something I am ignorant about. I did not know there were levels of injected exogenous T that do not enhance performance. 

 

 

Yes, I am well aware of TUEs, and I know that in the case of T, they are not easy to get. My guess is that you would not qualify for a TUE and therefore you would be guilty of cheating. 

 

And even if an event is not subjected to blood testing, it would still be cheating.  

 

 

It is not a question of whether your use of T is medically justified, it is a question of whether you qualify for a TUE for your use of T when racing competitively. If not, then you should not be racing. 

 

I don't care if you inject T but I do care that if by doing so you might have an unfair advantage over me in a competitive cycling race, regardless of whether it is a sanctioned race or not. 

 

If you can get a TUE then I will apologise. 

 

 

Grow up and stop talking trash.  I have absolutely no need for a TUE because I only race socially with fellow Strava riders, and as I said before my prescribed dosage would not provide me with any competitive advantage whatsoever...not even one extra frigg*n watt!

 

Furthermore, both my physician ( a sports doctor), and my endocrinologist have assured me that if I decide to race formally as an amateur I would absolutely qualify for a recreational competitor exemption (RCTUE) and they would support me in the process of getting one.

 

Finally, I want to say I think it's pretty offensive to actually call me a cheat before you even knew any details whatsoever about my prescribed use of T or the type of racing I do.  But of course, this is ThaiVisa so I guess I shouldn't be surprised at your troll-like behavior.

Edited by WaveHunter

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
28 minutes ago, WaveHunter said:

Grow up and stop talking trash.  Have you nothing better to do with your time than make mean-spirited, unfounded, and troll-like comments?  Don't bother answering; the answer is more than obvious.  This conversation is over.

In all openness wouldn’t you be feeling a lot less positive on this fasting and one meal a day food plan without doing T shots? lets be fair here.

By the way i got nothing against T shots.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
23 minutes ago, Destiny1990 said:

In all openness wouldn’t you be feeling a lot less positive on this fasting and one meal a day food plan without doing T shots? lets be fair here.

By the way i got nothing against T shots.

Truly, no offense intended here, but this conversation is getting a little silly.  My use of T is to treat a medical condition, not to enhance performance.  If I were using 500mg of test per week, THAT would be for performance enhancement.  TRT dosages are only intended to restore serum test levels to "physiological normal" ranges, not to become SuperMan 🙂

 

Again, I assure you that there is no meaningful relationship between testosterone and diet.  One's ability to fast has nothing at all to do with testosterone levels.  Don't take this the wrong way and I only am saying this to be helpful, but it sounds to me like you are looking for excuses to avoid taking positive action at improving your metabolic health.

 

Forget about your T level and focus on your nutritional strategy, whatever you decide it should be!  If T is a real concern, get the injections and be done with your concerns about it.  Really it is just that simple.

 

Whether you believe it or not, I am really rooting for you to succeed!  As the Nike ad goes, "Just Do It!" 🙂

 

Edited by WaveHunter
  • Haha 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
43 minutes ago, Destiny1990 said:

In all openness wouldn’t you be feeling a lot less positive on this fasting and one meal a day food plan without doing T shots? lets be fair here.

By the way i got nothing against T shots.

Oh, and BTW, I have decided to go to two-meals-per-day; no more OMAD for me.  I posted a long-assed post earlier today outlining my reasons.  It simply has to do with protein absorption though.  I still will continue monthly 72 hour fasts in the interest of staying keto-adapted and promoting autophagy.

 

I hope you understand that I am not promoting my nutritional strategy to anyone else, including you.  Simply put, it works for ME. 

 

What I am promoting to you and anyone else who cares to listen, is simply to find a long-term strategy that works best for YOU.  It took me a number of years of exploring different ones like Vegan, Paleo, and variations of them to finally figure out that none of them really work out-of-the-box, and the real key is to adopt the best elements of all of them into a strategy that is right specifically for you. 

 

It shouldn't be a short term goal of "going on a diet" to shed a few pounds or you will spend your life going from one crazy fad or in-vogue diet to the next.  Instead you should adopt a sound, science-based long-term nutritional strategy for optimum metabolic health that will keep you healthy and happy for the rest of your life.  That's the way I see it at least.

 

Edited by WaveHunter
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
51 minutes ago, Destiny1990 said:

In all openness wouldn’t you be feeling a lot less positive on this fasting and one meal a day food plan without doing T shots? lets be fair here.

By the way i got nothing against T shots.

BTW, the comment of mine you quoted:

 

"...Grow up and stop talking trash.  Have you nothing better to do with your time than make mean-spirited, unfounded, and troll-like comments?  Don't bother answering; the answer is more than obvious.  This conversation is over.... "

 

was NOT directed at you.  I hope you understand that, and I'm not sure why you are quoting it ??

 

Edited by WaveHunter

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
44 minutes ago, WaveHunter said:

BTW, the comment of mine you quoted:

 

"...Grow up and stop talking trash.  Have you nothing better to do with your time than make mean-spirited, unfounded, and troll-like comments?  Don't bother answering; the answer is more than obvious.  This conversation is over.... "

 

was NOT directed at you.  I hope you understand that, and I'm not sure why you are quoting it ??

 

I know 😃..but since ur discussion with him  it was about T so than since i am concerned about that too I bounced inside.

I understand that you only restore T to optimum levels or lets say to healthy levels anything higher would be foolish.

But understand me too i am saying loosing weight will lower T so than to restore it is tempting.

i am doing 16:8 with less carbs now and maybe next month try 5:2 for a month.

Will try loose 10 kilos first and check T afterwards is the plan.

Will keep you posted.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
28 minutes ago, Destiny1990 said:

I know 😃..but since ur discussion with him  it was about T so than since i am concerned about that too I bounced inside.

I understand that you only restore T to optimum levels or lets say to healthy levels anything higher would be foolish.

But understand me too i am saying loosing weight will lower T so than to restore it is tempting.

i am doing 16:8 with less carbs now and maybe next month try 5:2 for a month.

Will try loose 10 kilos first and check T afterwards is the plan.

Will keep you posted.

Yes, please do keep me posted; I'm really interested to see how you do 🙂 

 

As regard the T though, I wouldn't worry about it.  Lots of things can make your T level drop.  Simply training hard in the gym or in athletics can and usually will make it plummet, and most people aren't even aware of it by how they feel. 

 

There are times when I intentionally stop injecting for weeks just because I think it's wise to give my body a break, or I'm traveling a lot and don't want the hassle of bring the stuff on international trips, and I have to say that I feel no worse for it.  In all honesty, I sometimes wonder whether all I'm getting is a placebo effect from it.  Fact is, if it weren't so cheap to buy and to do the blood testing here in Thailand, I would probably discontinue using it I think!  If you had asked me a year ago, I probably would not have said that, but that's the way I feel about it now.

 

As I said before, I think there is just too much hype put out by the pharmaceutical companies and TRT clinics about all the supposed positive benefits from TRT, and it's not hard to see that their motive is primarily profit-driven, and not so much the health and welfare of the patient.

 

Edited by WaveHunter

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 hours ago, Destiny1990 said:

You’re right about using weights there isn’t really an escape if want to loose weight in a correct way.

Problem is that by using weights it will make sticking with a strict diet plan harder. I believe by using weights it boost T level a bit while if do only a diet plan with minimal exercise it just is going to lower T thus resulting in a lower libido.

Anyway 10 Kilos 3 Months is a realistic time frame and way better loosing weight slowly than quickly.

So okey I will do 3 x 5 push-ups now and 3 x 8 squats without weights.

Don’t  laugh pls.😃

 

Why would i laugh about what others do for training. We all need to start somewhere the weaker you are the more progress you can make. Its even possible then to lose fat and gain muscle for beginners. Just keep your protein at about 1,5g per kg of bodyweight. You need more protein to keep your muscles if your trying to lose weight.

 

If you can try to increase weights reps ect, progressive overload builds (and keeps) muscle. Yes you might be a big more hungry though I am usually not hungry after a workout. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, Destiny1990 said:

I know 😃..but since ur discussion with him  it was about T so than since i am concerned about that too I bounced inside.

I understand that you only restore T to optimum levels or lets say to healthy levels anything higher would be foolish.

But understand me too i am saying loosing weight will lower T so than to restore it is tempting.

i am doing 16:8 with less carbs now and maybe next month try 5:2 for a month.

Will try loose 10 kilos first and check T afterwards is the plan.

Will keep you posted.

Its not that injecting T (TRT not bodybuilding doses) would not help you during you diet. But not in the way you think. It would not speed up the loss of fat, rather it would help you hold on to muscle and even build a bit if your T was real low and you start doing weightlifting exercises. 

 

But its not something you really feel, i have used in the past far more then TRT when i first came here and saw it all available i wanted to try. So i did 500 (a week) mg of test for 12 weeks. That is something you feel (after a few weeks and because its the first time) and then you build muscle. TRT is much lower and you don't feel much. Does not mean its not there it just not as big a difference then. (for muscle building). 

 

On TRT the dosage is much lower still I am happy i tried it (bodybuilder doses) i know its effects and can talk about it with experience not just about what I have read. You still need to work your ass off in a gym, you still need to eat good to maximise muscle gain. There have been studies that just injecting bodybuilding doses gains muscles without training. But its not as much as what would have been gained without.

 

Anyway don't expect that on TRT but it will help in the gym but not hugely. But at our age we can use every advantage we can get.

 

Anyway I don't compete and people can call me a cheat for having used it and using TRT now... and even this period I am using peptides for HGH to help me lose more fat (not sure if its working or not as my weight went up.. could be water or muscle). I don't really care now.. just going to wait it out as how i look is good enough now. I want more but know it won't happen soon. The last bits of fat are the hardest.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@JungleBiker

 

Yes using testosterone and competing is cheating. Unless of course you stay under the allowed levels. I have cheated for real using bodybuilder doses, I always wanted to try and I did. Still happy I did as now I can talk about it from experience not from what i read and repeating what people say. 

 

Its been a years since I done it but I remember the first time quite well as its the best time. I tried a second time but it just did not give the same results at all. That is why you see huge doses for bodybuilding. You need more and more if you want to get past a certain size. Not my goal so no need.

 

I train at home (nobody to impress but myself) and compete with myself and nobody else. So I don't really care what people think. Now on TRT and since 1 1/2 week on peptides GHRP 2 too. To see if it helps. The peptides have helped me in one way. My sleep has improved a bit. I feel more rested. (not every day). 

 

I don't get it why you came down so hard on Wavehunter, he was not competing professionally or as an amateur. He was just doing TrT and those dosages stay within normal limits. Sure it helps but it just puts him on equal foot with a healthy person.. or to be honest just above one. Depending a bit on the levels. But its not that much of an advantage. But its a great advantage for general life. 

 

My T was low, and Thyroid too, fixed the T with Trt, did not fix the thyroid as those medicine kept me from sleeping. I tried quite a few shortcuts / drugs to lose extra fat. The reality is some do work, but only if your diet and exercise are great already. Then they can help speed things up or break through certain plateau's. I am now again at a plateau (i think) but will see if I can add more cardio to break through it.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Forget about fasting, dieting, or any other of the du jour antics.

 

The science is to eat a well balanced diet, involving clean foods, exercise, breather clean air, don't smoke or over indulge, ...everything in moderation.  Easy peasy.

  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, robblok said:

@JungleBiker

 

...I don't get it why you came down so hard on Wavehunter, he was not competing professionally or as an amateur. He was just doing TrT and those dosages stay within normal limits. Sure it helps but it just puts him on equal foot with a healthy person.. or to be honest just above one. Depending a bit on the levels. But its not that much of an advantage. But its a great advantage for general life. ...

@JungleBiker

Well put Robblok.  Perhaps I over-reacted to JungleBiker's post but it is incredibly insulting to call someone a cheat without even knowing them or anything about their medical condition or their competitive intentions.  I race purely as a recreational rider.  Most of the people I race against and have gotten to know on Strava know I am on TRT.  None of them have ever accused me of cheating when I beat them or when I achieve a PR, so what gives you that right when you don't even know me?

 

Now, if I were riding as a professional or an elite amateur, where even the very slightest competitive advantage might be the difference between winning and loosing, then I could see your point, and so does the USADA.  I'm under no illusion that, even though I am sure I could get a recreational competitor exemption, it would probably be revoked if I started winning a lot of races, but the fact is that I have no interest in competing at that level and if I ever did have that intention, I would not even seek an exemption but simply quit TRT (which I'm probably going to do anyway because I no longer believe in its' efficacy.) 

 

Even though my use of T is to treat a medical condition and the dosage is hardly performance enhancing at less then 100mg /week (performance enhancing dosages are 500mg +), I concede it could provide a VERY slight advantage on the professional or elite amateur level. 

 

For instance, I use 75mg of T per week and my serum T right now is around 700ng/dL which is in the normal range for my age group.  Let's say I'm competing against someone who has a natural T of the same level.  When training hard there is usually a slight drop in T and also in red blood cells.  For me, that drop will be slightly less but the competitive advantage would be so low that it would only be significant in extremely high level competition, if that.

 

And on the other hand, you should consider that a medical condition that puts me at a disadvantage even though I train just as hard as my competitors is equally unfair, which is why TUE's exist.

 

Anyway, I race for the pleasure of racing and for the camaraderie of riding with people I enjoy being around.  They don't give me sh*t about my TRT; neither should you.

 

Edited by WaveHunter

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, wisperone said:

... The science is to eat a well balanced diet, involving clean foods, exercise, breather clean air, don't smoke or over indulge, ...everything in moderation.  Easy peasy. ...

I agree with everything you said in selected quote above, except you haven't defined what a well balanced diet is.  Aside from fasting, which is more to do with general metabolic health than nutrition, this thread is about exploring just what constitutes a well balanced diet.  So, what is your definition?

Edited by WaveHunter
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 5/8/2019 at 12:57 PM, lagavulin1 said:

Ketogenisis is well described and understood in the literature. I don't argue with your article. 

I am puzzled though why you have failed to mention the ketogenic Diets which seems to me a much more interesting way of living (apart from having to stop beer). Do you perceive any additional benefits from fasting? 

Water fasting and ketogenic diets are similar in nature but serve different purposes.  The biggest distinction is that water fasting should not be considered a “weight loss diet”, except to treat extreme complications of metabolic disease (I.e.: type 2 diabetes).

 

I am not obese yet I periodically fast.  I am a competitive road cyclist and I fast for the purpose keto-adaptation.  What I mean is that I train my body to be better able to use stored body fat as a alternative fuel source in situations where my glycogen stores start to become depleted like intense hill-climbing or extended rides.

 

This glycogen-depleted condition is referred to as “bonking” by athletes.  The usual remedy is to use carb-rich (sugar) sports gels during competition but these products have serious drawbacks and must be heavily consumed during competition which is far from ideal.

 

Training your body to be keto-adapted through periodic fasting improves the body’s ability to quickly access and use stored body fat as fuel, thus lessening the effects of glycogen deprivation.

 

A good analogy is to liken it to the way hybrid car engines can use both gasoline and electricity as alternative fuel sources.

 

It works well in spite of what many close-minded and uninformed naysayers will argue.  More and more endurance athletes are embracing the concept of Keto-adaptation through periodic fasting.

 

This isn’t of value only to athletes.  Anyone can benefit from keto-adaptation because it improves the body’s ability to burn stored fat, not to mention it also promotes accelerated autophagy (but that’s another topic you should explore).

 

There is a lot of sound underlying science to this which you can learn by googling.  There is also a lot of health-guru type BS out there too so you need to be careful about your information sources.

 

In essence, water fasting is a quick and sure means to becoming keto-adapted.  Periodic 72 hour fasts will allow it to happen.  Hormonal pathways of fat metabolism are redefined, and those changes “stick” after the fast is completed.  Personally I find a frequency of monthly or bi-monthly fasts are sufficient to maintain keto-adaptation.

 

Ketogenic diets will allow for this to happen too.  The reason I  choose fasting over ketogenic diets is that I need a reasonable level of carbs in my regular diet, and a ketogenic diets requires restricting carbs below 50 grams or so per day to activate ketosis; just too low for my needs.

 

Theres a lot to be said for ketogenic diets and for water fasting, but just don’t fall for the notion of water-fasting as a weight loss diet.  It can work but if you are a relatively active person, the pitfalls of fasting any longer than say, 3-5 days outweigh the benefits IMO (unless you have life-threatening complications of obesity (advanced stage Diabetes 2) and are doing it under a doctors supervision.  

 

If if you are in reasonably good health (See your doctor and get blood tests), a 3 day water fast is not going to do any harm, and can be one of the healthiest things you can do for your metabolic health IMHO.

 

 

Edited by WaveHunter

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...