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WaveHunter

Water Only Fasting...Should you do it / How should you do it.

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35 minutes ago, WaveHunter said:

My remark was "...a water fast is a fast where you consume only water; you do not abstain from drinking water."  How does your comment prove me "wrong!" in saying that?

Mineral water or drinking water for ur water fast?

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10 hours ago, Destiny1990 said:

Mineral water or drinking water for ur water fast?

Just regular old drinking water is all the body needs IMO.💦

 

Again, just to be clear, I only fast for 72 hours once a month or every other month.  There’s absolutely no concern about depleting essential minerals or vitamins on such a short fast.  

 

If fasting for longer periods, a simple multivitamin with minerals is all you’d need.

 

People should really appreciate that the body is quite resilient and is designed to do just fine in the fasted state for long periods of time.    

 

If you doubt that, look at the case of Angus Barbieri who water-fasted for 382 days (under medical supervision).  A single multivitamin/mineral supplement was all he required, and he did just fine.  

 

I’m certainly not advocating such a long term fast unless there is a medical reason for it.  I mention him only because his case was meticulously documented by the doctors who oversaw his fast.  

 

Anyone who has any doubts about the safety of water fasting should read about his fast to appreciate how resilient our bodies really are.

Edited by WaveHunter

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3 hours ago, WaveHunter said:

Just regular old drinking water is all the body needs IMO.💦

 

Again, just to be clear, I only fast for 72 hours once a month or every other month.  There’s absolutely no concern about depleting essential minerals or vitamins on such a short fast.  

 

If fasting for longer periods, a simple multivitamin with minerals is all you’d need.

 

People should really appreciate that the body is quite resilient and is designed to do just fine in the fasted state for long periods of time.    

 

If you doubt that, look at the case of Angus Barbieri who water-fasted for 382 days (under medical supervision).  A single multivitamin/mineral supplement was all he required, and he did just fine.  

 

I’m certainly not advocating such a long term fast unless there is a medical reason for it.  I mention him only because his case was meticulously documented by the doctors who oversaw his fast.  

 

Anyone who has any doubts about the safety of water fasting should read about his fast to appreciate how resilient our bodies really are.

I guess I should add a couple of things to my previous response.  Firstly, because I'm sure that the naysayers will find fault with my remark "...the body is quite resilient and is designed to do just fine in the fasted state for long periods of time...", that is predicated on the body having sufficient stores of body fat during the entire length of the fast (i.e.: say, above 10-15%).  Even though many people (i.e.: high level athletes) are fine with lower body fat percentages, if you are in a fasted state, your body can actually transition into starvation mode during a prolonged fast once your body fat percentages fall much below 10-15%.

 

Secondly, while any potable water is fine for a water fast, I personally use bottled spring water from a reliable source if possible, simply because I prefer the taste.  Since that is the only thing you are consuming, "taste" is actually an important consideration.  Also, I'd want the assurance that the water is pure and not contaminated with heavy metals or bacteria.

 

Also, if in Thailand, obviously you would not use tap water.  I would also steer clear of reverse-osmosis machine water.  While there is nothing wrong with reverse-osmosis itself, I question how those machines are maintained here in Thailand, and thus would be concerned about possible bacterial contamination, algae, etc..., and besides, I think the water from those machines tastes gross in general.

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Switched to eating raw fruits in 1 day, 20 May 2011. (26y old)

Did 3 day water fast 1-3 June while still working as courier, making deliveries on car. Felt ok, my feet felt so light, I wanted to just run all day long.

Nose completely cleared up.

 

Did 8 day water fast 1-8July. This time not so good, felt like throwing up, and cannot stand up quickly (black screen in the eyes), just do slowly about 3seconds.

Kept on to raw fruits.

Jan 2014 Switched to apple/orange juice, freshly squeezed by myself.

After that my body went into 1 meal a day mode. about 8-9Pm. 2-3 cups of 700ml juice.

Felt empty stomach by the time I went to sleep, later realized I'm not hungry, just empty stomach.

During day not feel stomach at all, like it doesn't exist.

Closer to 7-9PM you start feel it.

 

In Moscow where fruits are not very good I did start to lose weight, from 62 to 36kg. Height 178cm.

This diet brought me to Thailand 28 aug 2017, where I gained weight on coconuts and durians. For real, I started to gain weight on fruits.

Even got a belly.

 

After drinking only coconut water for 3-4 days it's very easy to go into dry-fasting.

This is what I'm practicing, especially in dry season, lying on a beach.

1 day is easy because I basically do 20 hour fast every day already, 2 is harder.

But one time I got something from mosquitoes and I didn't want to eat for 4 days. I thought I've finally switched to prana-nourishment. that is my goal and dream.

On 4th day I tried to drink coconut and 1h later it came out from my mouth.

On 6th day I felt hungry, and started drinking coconuts.

 

I agree with WaveHunter that doing things in steps is better, you can feel when you are ready for the 'difficulty upgrade'.

I will keep practicing 1/2/3/4/5/6 ... until 40 days dry fast like Jesus and Mohammed.

Edited by Tim K

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6 hours ago, FredGallaher said:

Absolutely. You need a balanced electrolyte intake.This is especially true with potassium (K) and magnesium. Low levels can result in muscle cramps and heart arrhythmia. Potassium is not reabsorbed by your kidneys as is sodium (Na). Other minerals are equally import. That's why people on diuretics need to monitor potassium. We had a critical level set at >2.7 meq/dl (lower level). That's why your provider orders either a basic electrolyte panel or a basic metabolic panel.

Sports drinks are a good but they may contain sugars. Another alternative is Ringer's solution that contains the basic minerals the body needs.I believe Atkins recommends vitamins with minerals. 

I don't expect the basic preachers of water fasting to agree, but you can google the effects of low potassium and see for yourself. 

Spoken like somebody who knows nothing about the underlying science of nutritional fasting, has absolutely no knowledge of physiological "starvation" responses experienced in the fasted state, and has no desire to become informed.

 

First of all, Doctor Fred, we're talking about a 72 hour nutritional fast, not advanced stage clinical starvation, so seriously, give me a break with your doomsday scenario!  I'm sure everybody is impressed with your scientific discourse on electrolytes but don't you think it's a bit of overkill when discussing a 3-day fast?

 

The fact is, on a 72 hour nutritional fast, electrolytes will not even be effected until glycogen stores  are depleted, and insulin levels have dropped.  So, electrolyte loss does not even begin to occur until a 72 hour fast is about to end.  On longer fasts where electrolytes are in fact excreted,  that loss only happens for a couple of days, and all that's going to happen is you'll be very uncomfortable as a result; it is not life threatening! 

 

This is referred to as "keto flue" by those who do ketogenic diets and those who fast.  On a 72 hour fast you won't even experience it to a significant degree.  On a longer fast, it will last for a couple of days (i.e.: Day 3 and 4), but a "fix" is very simple.  You use a sports electrolyte powder mixed in a glass of water containing Na, K, Mg and Cl to get you through the couple of days of discomfort. 

 

Electrolyte loss during water fasting only occurs for a couple of days.  The reason why this electrolyte loss is not dangerous in a longer term fast is that by day 5 of a fast, the physiological starvation response mechanisms kick in causing electrolytes to be preserved allowing the body to return to a homeostatic state.  The only time water fasting becomes dangerous is when nutritional fasting turns into clinical starvation.  (see attached research study on electrolyte loss / preservation during prolonged fasting and associated graphs).

 

As has been said before, the body is far more resilient than naysayers such as yourself seem willing to accept.  Perhaps you should learn more about metabolic science and science-based physiological starvation response in nutritional fasting before you make unfounded remarks.

 

The reason I react the way I do to your posts is that this thread was intended for people who have a genuine and sincere interest in nutritional fasting.  It was not intended to be a platform for you to impress everyone with your attempts to sound like an medical doctor well versed in metabolic science.  Clearly you are not.

 

Seriously, it's not my intention to be mean or confrontational but you arrogantly pontificate on topics you obviously have very little actual knowledge of.  Your misinformation, comments not germane to the discussed topic, and your continual nitpicking over terminology is incredibly distracting and does not advance this thread in a helpful or meaningful way for anyone but yourself. 

 

It would be a nice thing if you'd be a little more considerate and show some respect for the thread.

 

See this research study:  Urinary Sodium and Potassium Excretion in Fasting Obese Subjects

 

 

1333628563_snapshot_2019-07-07at11_42_03PM.jpg.bb2b321e4a075bcef7f09af0cbc495b2.jpg

Excretion and preservation of electrolytes in prolonged fasting (from above study):

 

Edited by Kohsamida

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1 hour ago, FredGallaher said:

My comments are not for the angry advocates of water fasting. It has some benefits but also risks. I post this for others so as to not risk your health. These risks are increased in hot weather or when doing strenuous exercise.  If you've ever got sweat in your eyes when exercising you'll know that it stings. That's mostly salt leaving your body. When I was playing collegiate sports they regularly passed out salt tablets along with water and or sport drinks to make up for these losses. 

I really don't want users here to be mislead into believing minerals don't need to be replaced. If one lived in a cold climate without strenuous exercise, maybe not a big issue. 

Look, I got a little angry when I saw your post so maybe I overreacted.  I apologize for my tone.

 

I don't deny the importance of electrolytes or vitamins.  As you say, in hot weather such as we have  here in Thailand, electrolyte balance is particularly important if you are an active person outdoors. 

 

As a matter of fact, I regularly use sports electrolyte drinks and vitamins every day for this reason because I'm an outdoor endurance athlete.  I also use them during a fast for the same reason. 

 

Yes, it's advisable to supplement electrolytes the same way it's advisable to to take a multi-vitamin every day whether or not you are fasting, but not taking them during a fast will not be dangerous or life threatening because the body's natural starvation response mechanisms kick in to safeguard us in situations where there is a lack of food.

 

You really need a better understanding of these starvation response mechanisms so that you don't propagate unfounded myths in regard to sound nutritional fasting practices. 

 

You need to understand that there is a set of adaptive biochemical and physiological changes that take place in response to a lack of food.  There were landmark studies conducted into this in the late 1940's in response to the famine conditions that were occurring in Europe at the end of World War II where these mechanisms were brought to light.  It is this real science that provides a foundation for the efficacy and safety of nutritional fasting. 

 

My point in the previous post was simply that you do not seem to understand the resilient way that the human body reacts to lack of food. 

 

As the graph that was cited in my previous post clearly shows, yes, there is a temporary spike in potassium and sodium excretion (as you claim) in the initial stage of a water fast; that is the "keto flue" symptoms.  It is a temporary response brought on by the kidneys when insulin levels drop. 

 

It is not dangerous or life threatening in a short term fast (3 days) because it does not occur until glycogen stores are depleted, so really the fast is over before electrolyte loss even becomes significant.  On a longer fast, electrolyte loss will only result in discomfort (keto flue), not life threatening conditions, and only last for a couple of days until the body's reacts to re-establish a homeostatic state.

 

If you look at these graphs you can clearly see that by day 5 of being in a fasted state, potassium and sodium excretion not only return to the pre-fast baseline, but actually fall below it.  That is the body's response to conserve electrolytes.

 

Bottom line, our bodies are resilient when faced with lack of food.  This is the foundation of science-based nutritional fasting as a safe and effective metabolic health tool.  To deny this is foolish and only propagates unfounded negative myths regarding nutritional fasting.

 

Edited by Kohsamida

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On 7/4/2019 at 5:18 PM, FredGallaher said:

FYI bacteria counts are not part of stool analysis. They are part of urine cultures. 

A very short sample (A and some B)and in this short sample they are all bacteria. The full list of present microbes in my stool also contains other branches of microbes besides bacteria. 

38F6AF48-5F75-49AE-AA7F-D5F5E4288811.thumb.png.ac31131eac953ceab2ca3bba9afbcc24.png

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On 7/7/2019 at 9:00 PM, Tim K said:

Switched to eating raw fruits in 1 day, 20 May 2011. (26y old)

Did 3 day water fast 1-3 June while still working as courier, making deliveries on car. Felt ok, my feet felt so light, I wanted to just run all day long.

Nose completely cleared up.

 

Did 8 day water fast 1-8July. This time not so good, felt like throwing up, and cannot stand up quickly (black screen in the eyes), just do slowly about 3seconds.

Kept on to raw fruits.

Jan 2014 Switched to apple/orange juice, freshly squeezed by myself.

After that my body went into 1 meal a day mode. about 8-9Pm. 2-3 cups of 700ml juice.

Felt empty stomach by the time I went to sleep, later realized I'm not hungry, just empty stomach.

During day not feel stomach at all, like it doesn't exist.

Closer to 7-9PM you start feel it.

 

In Moscow where fruits are not very good I did start to lose weight, from 62 to 36kg. Height 178cm.

This diet brought me to Thailand 28 aug 2017, where I gained weight on coconuts and durians. For real, I started to gain weight on fruits.

Even got a belly.

 

After drinking only coconut water for 3-4 days it's very easy to go into dry-fasting.

This is what I'm practicing, especially in dry season, lying on a beach.

1 day is easy because I basically do 20 hour fast every day already, 2 is harder.

But one time I got something from mosquitoes and I didn't want to eat for 4 days. I thought I've finally switched to prana-nourishment. that is my goal and dream.

On 4th day I tried to drink coconut and 1h later it came out from my mouth.

On 6th day I felt hungry, and started drinking coconuts.

 

I agree with WaveHunter that doing things in steps is better, you can feel when you are ready for the 'difficulty upgrade'.

I will keep practicing 1/2/3/4/5/6 ... until 40 days dry fast like Jesus and Mohammed.

I'd be real careful with the notion of dry-fasting.  The body is quite resilient when it comes to doing without food for even long periods of time, but lack of adequate hydration is quite another matter.

 

I've spent over 20 years being fascinated with health aspects of nutritional fasting and there is quite a bit of scientific evidence as to its' efficacy and safety, however I find very little science that supports the efficacy and safety of "dry" fasting.

 

From a science-based standpoint, I really don't see any benefit to it at all (and I've done quite a bit of reading on this topic).  This is just my informed opinion, and if you can educate us with science-based information I may be missing, please do so.  Otherwise, be very careful, especially here in the harsh climate of Thailand. 

 

Clinical dehydration can be very dangerous, and its effects irreversible.  In other words, you can die from it before symptoms make it apparent you've gone too far.  I've actually seen someone die from unintentional dehydration and it wasn't a pretty sight to see it happen with EMT's and even doctors unable to do anything to help the person.

 

Edited by Kohsamida

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1 minute ago, Kohsamida said:

I'd be real careful with the notion of dry-fasting.  The body is quite resilient when it comes to doing without food for even long periods of time, but lack of adequate hydration is quite another matter.

 

dry - fasting.  

 

Wow, just when I thought I had read about all the stupid diet fads over the years this one is the winner.

 

Will the next one be oxygen / air fasting...… ?!!

 

Common sense...   simply eat healthy food in smaller amounts and take moderate exercise. 

 

Cut out highly processed foods and replace with real food.   Not hard, but not fashionable or indorsed by some celebrity... and also can not make some healthy wellness living guru a load of money from selling books and special products.  

 

Sorry, but there is no quick secret miracle way to get fit / loose weight... no super belly fat burning mountain pixy berries or the like, no matter how nice a story it sounds or how trendy you might want to look. 

 

And spending a fortune on juicer machines, contraptions to make special soups or buying overprices dried up fungus, nut and spices mixtures or forcing yourself to drink what tastes like stinking pond water and duck crap is going to make you get healthy in the long term.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

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30 minutes ago, jak2002003 said:

dry - fasting.  

 

Wow, just when I thought I had read about all the stupid diet fads over the years this one is the winner.

 

Will the next one be oxygen / air fasting...… ?!!

 

Common sense...   simply eat healthy food in smaller amounts and take moderate exercise. 

 

Cut out highly processed foods and replace with real food.   Not hard, but not fashionable or indorsed by some celebrity... and also can not make some healthy wellness living guru a load of money from selling books and special products.  

 

Sorry, but there is no quick secret miracle way to get fit / loose weight... no super belly fat burning mountain pixy berries or the like, no matter how nice a story it sounds or how trendy you might want to look. 

 

And spending a fortune on juicer machines, contraptions to make special soups or buying overprices dried up fungus, nut and spices mixtures or forcing yourself to drink what tastes like stinking pond water and duck crap is going to make you get healthy in the long term.  

I agree that today far too many people look for shortcuts to health, and are encouraged to do so by so-called health gurus who are motivated only by self-serving interests of financial gain. 

 

I used to have a weight issue and know first-hand how seductive many of the fad diets can be, but when you really explore them, they are not based in real science.  Rather, very clever authors of these diets cherry pick scientific facts to fit a narrative that sounds very convincing.  It's a shame, but apparently it's quite an effective strategy that makes many of these gurus a lot of money.

 

Most obese people who finally resolve their weight issue do it with self-education from reliable science-based sources, and then make lifestyle changes that don't even focus on caloric reduction!

 

I've spent over 20 years being fascinated by, and becoming very well read about metabolic science.   I resolved my own weight issues by simply forgetting about caloric reduction diets, and focusing instead on lifestyle changes that optimized my metabolic health. 

 

In retrospect, it was hard in the beginning to change bad nutritional habits (very hard in fact), but like anything, it gets easier with time.

 

I saw noticeable changes in my health in a fairly short amount of time, and the best part of it is that once you adapt to your new lifestyle, it's very easy to maintain it without fear of going back to your old, unhealthy ways.  By contrast, that's not the case with caloric reduction diets, which have a horrible track record for long-term success.

 

IMHO, ALL caloric reduction diets are simply a waste of time in the long run for most people.  Embracing a healthy common-sense nutritional lifestyle that's firmly supported by science, not pseudo science is the key.  Not having to count calories or step on a bathroom scale is a wonderful way to live 🙂

 

Edited by Kohsamida
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2 hours ago, Kohsamida said:

I agree that today far too many people look for shortcuts to health, and are encouraged to do so by so-called health gurus who are motivated only by self-serving interests of financial gain. 

 

I used to have a weight issue and know first-hand how seductive many of the fad diets can be, but when you really explore them, they are not based in real science.  Rather, very clever authors of these diets cherry pick scientific facts to fit a narrative that sounds very convincing.  It's a shame, but apparently it's quite an effective strategy that makes many of these gurus a lot of money.

 

Most obese people who finally resolve their weight issue do it with self-education from reliable science-based sources, and then make lifestyle changes that don't even focus on caloric reduction!

 

I've spent over 20 years being fascinated by, and becoming very well read about metabolic science.   I resolved my own weight issues by simply forgetting about caloric reduction diets, and focusing instead on lifestyle changes that optimized my metabolic health. 

 

In retrospect, it was hard in the beginning to change bad nutritional habits (very hard in fact), but like anything, it gets easier with time.

 

I saw noticeable changes in my health in a fairly short amount of time, and the best part of it is that once you adapt to your new lifestyle, it's very easy to maintain it without fear of going back to your old, unhealthy ways.  By contrast, that's not the case with caloric reduction diets, which have a horrible track record for long-term success.

 

IMHO, ALL caloric reduction diets are simply a waste of time in the long run for most people.  Embracing a healthy common-sense nutritional lifestyle that's firmly supported by science, not pseudo science is the key.  Not having to count calories or step on a bathroom scale is a wonderful way to live 🙂

 

Great post and I agree with what you say.

 

I have successfully lost weight and got to my target weight now and it took me less than a year and very little effort, and never feeling hungry or forcing myself to go without food.  Did not do any fasting, juicing, gym workouts, keto, atkins, paleo, gluten free, carbohydrate elimination, or eat 'superfoods'.  Still drank moderate amount of alcohol, still ate late at night before bed, still ate rice, bread and potatoes etc.  

 

All I did was realise that a lot of the food I was eating was not healthy, and also loaded with calories mostly from sugar because I was eating a lot of processed foods, and got into a bad habit of eating junk food snacks like bars of chocolate, sweets, cakes, and pastries every day (although never in massive quantities).  I had also become more sedentary.  

 

So I decided to stop eating the junk stuff and replaced them with healthier options.  I also cut down my portion sizes at meal times, and increased my activity.  Just did more relaxing cycling rides and walked more... no gym or running machines.

 

It was hard to resist the temptation of the junk food for a few weeks simply out of my old habits.  However, after I got into the habit of eating normal food the cravings stopped.  It's about changing habits I think is key.  I used to eat even if I was not hungry and then feel too full and bloated. 

 

Now I only eat if I am hungry.  Usually 2 meals a day.  If I want to have a TV night and munch on comfort food I go for fruit (I am crazy for jackfruit) and nuts, or a home made sandwich.  

 

Occasionally I will decide to have a cake, ice cream or chocolate bar if I am in the mood.  But this is not more than once a week. I found I no longer go crazy for them, no longer get cravings to go eat them, and I don't get the same 'buzz' when I am eating them.. they don't taste anything special anymore.  I find my jackfruit, som tam or jungle curry much more delicious!!

 

 

 

 

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On 7/5/2019 at 2:35 AM, observer90210 said:

I'm no scientist, I'm no member of any scientological network....but for sure, fasting in a tropical climate with the heat, no water - can lead to serious health issues. Sorry. I'd rather read something informative on how to d"**mm stop smoking !!!

Until you accept that your longevity will be reduced by smoking, and that is important to you, nothing I could say or do could help.

 

However, if you have an open mind, it has been scientifically proven that the largest medical killer in the USA - heart attack  - is linked to smoking. There has been many studies to demonstrate and prove this is more than correlation but causation. And then there are other unpleasant ways to reduce longevity - lung cancer is probably the least pleasant to endure. 

 

I suggest you google 'smoking and health' on the Amazon book page and you could choose several scientifically proven studies, some very readable, clearly demonstrating the adverse effects of smoking on one's longevity.  Plus determining just how many days, weeks and months shorter life you can expect.

 

Once you're in a mindset that realises however you otherwise change your lifestyle by healthy eating and moderate exercise, your life is going to be shortened if you continue to smoke. It's worse than alcohol  - red wine in moderation is good for you - because with smoking there are NO long-term health benefits. None.   

 

 

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1 hour ago, stephenterry said:

Until you accept that your longevity will be reduced by smoking, and that is important to you, nothing I could say or do could help.

 

However, if you have an open mind, it has been scientifically proven that the largest medical killer in the USA - heart attack  - is linked to smoking. There has been many studies to demonstrate and prove this is more than correlation but causation. And then there are other unpleasant ways to reduce longevity - lung cancer is probably the least pleasant to endure. 

 

I suggest you google 'smoking and health' on the Amazon book page and you could choose several scientifically proven studies, some very readable, clearly demonstrating the adverse effects of smoking on one's longevity.  Plus determining just how many days, weeks and months shorter life you can expect.

 

Once you're in a mindset that realises however you otherwise change your lifestyle by healthy eating and moderate exercise, your life is going to be shortened if you continue to smoke. It's worse than alcohol  - red wine in moderation is good for you - because with smoking there are NO long-term health benefits. None.   

If a person is addicted to smoking cigarettes and seriously want to break the habit, a very good option is to switch to vaping.  I appreciate the fact that smoking is highly addictive.  Some say that it is even considered to be potentially as addictive as heroin!  Vaping has proven to be a successful strategy for people who have tried ands failed with other strategies.

 

I know, I know...vaping is most likely not healthy either but it satisfies the urge for nicotine (which is the addictive agent in cigarettes) but does it without the serious health risks associated with the tar of cigarettes (which is the main carcinogenic agent in cigarettes), and offers a path to breaking the nicotine habit entirely that's worked for many people.

 

Of course, it's likely there are other possibly carcinogenic agents associated with vaping, and vaping probably causes similar damage to arteries that leads to heart disease as cigarette smoking (but on a lower level)...but it offers a path to breaking the habit that has proven far more successful than any other "quit smoking "strategy to date.   

 

So, the two most important health factors of vaping over cigarettes is 1) you eliminate tars which are the main cancer causing agent of cigarettes, and 2) vaping allows you to slowly and precisely progress to vaping liquids with lower and lower nicotine content, milligram by milligram, and eventually weaning yourself off of nicotine entirely.  Once you are able to reach zero milligrams of nicotine, breaking the habit entirely is a piece of cake.

 

I realize that vaping is illegal in Thailand right now but many people find easy ways to get around this weakly enforced law, and it also appears the legality issue is about to change in favor of eliminating the ban.

 

Edited by Kohsamida
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7 minutes ago, Kohsamida said:

If a person is addicted to smoking cigarettes and seriously want to break the habit, a very good option is to switch to vaping.  I know, I know...vaping is most likely not healthy either but it satisfies the urge for nicotine (which is the addictive agent in cigarettes) but does it without the serious health risks associated with the tar of cigarettes (which is the main carcinogenic agent in cigarettes), and offers a path to breaking the nicotine habit that's worked for many people.

 

Of course, it's likely there are other possibly carcinogenic agents associated with vaping, and vaping probably causes similar damage to arteries that leads to heart disease as cigarette smoking (but on a lower level)...but it offers a path to breaking the habit that has proven far ore successful than any other "quit smoking "strategy to date.   

 

The two most important health factors of vaping over cigarettes is 1) you eliminate tars which are the main cancer causing agent of cigarettes, and 2) vaping allows you to slowly and precisely progress to vaping liquids with lower and lower nicotine content, and eventually weaning yourself off of nicotine entirely.

 

Many who do this eventually are vaping with zero nicotine and then can easily give up the smoking/vaping habit entirely, or if they continue vaping with zero nicotine, at least they do so with greatly diminished health risks.

 

I realize that vaping is illegal in Thailand right now but many people find easy ways to get around this weakly enforced law, and it also appears the legality issue is about to change.

 

So, that would be my advice to someone who seriously wants to quit but has been unable to do it.  I understand that smoking is highly addictive.  Some say that it is even considered to be potentially as addictive as heroin!  Vaping has proven to be a successful strategy for people who have tried ands failed with other strategies.

The issue I have with (legalised) vaping - whilst the weaning off process works for some - is that it doesn't enforce the actuality that longevity will be shortened.

 

Once longevity  - or the shortness of it - is accepted as being the key to a healthier and longer life, a positive mindset is put in place to quit smoking. 

 

As a comparison, it's like trying to sell life assurance when there's no end product to show.  How I would achieve a 'sale' is to inform smokers that harm to the body can be (mainly) reversed - lungs would clear, and clogged arteries would open up again if a healthy nutritious lifestyle is pursued.

 

As an aside, there are practitioners and case studies which indicate - for those suffering heart disease - a nutrition change by converting to a plant-eating regime by eliminating all dairy products from a diet, would be successful. This includes forgoing meat, fish, milk, yogurts, eggs and cheese. Vegan type nutrition could effectively resolve heart disease.   Read - How Not To Die - by Michael Greger MD, whose grandmother's case study, set him on a doctor's path to longevity.

 

 

 

    

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16 minutes ago, FredGallaher said:

What is this? What use is it? There is no value in identifying fecal flora and its constantly changing. 

I think he posted that for the same reason that I disagreed with your remark in which you said "...FYI bacteria counts are not part of stool analysis. They are part of urine cultures. ..." 

 

In his snapshot, these do indeed appear to all be types that are considered normal flora.  How can you say such a stool sample has no diagnostic value?  It indicates the absence of pathogenic bacteria; is that not of diagnostic value?


Pathogenic bacteria can enter and infect the digestive tract when someone eats food or drinks water that is contaminated.   In Thailand it's very easy to become infected by eating or drinking anything that has been contaminated with the bacteria, even things as simple as tap water, ice cubes in a drink, a fresh salad, or food from a vendor's stall. 

 

If symptoms are severe, if there is bloody diarrhea or mucus present in the stool, or if it is continuing unabated, then a stool culture will usually be ordered by the doctor as a first diagnostic step.  It may be complimented with other tests like a GI Pathogen Panel (also from a stool sample) but a culture from the stool sample is the diagnostic starting point.

 

Any one who's lived here in Thailand long enough knows this only too well.  Why on earth would you continue to argue this?

 

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