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BANGKOK 16 June 2019 20:31
WaveHunter

Water Only Fasting...Should you do it / How should you do it.

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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, Destiny1990 said:

Yes but i think 5:2 more popular for loosing weight.. maybe because results will be faster with 5:2 because of actual less intake of food/calories for at least 2 days a week.

16:8 yes it’s probably easier to follow especially if not drinking alcohol to follow that program. Also within the 16:8 you can consume the same calories amount as without any fast program so not sure how effective weight-loss that will be by only narrowing the eating  timeframe.

I could consider continue doing 16:8 but with smaller amounts of carbohydrates and more veggies in those 8 hours?

Also, I should add that, while fats are more satiating, high glycemic carbs that contain high fructose corn syrup actually fool the brain's receptors for satiety through insufficient release of leptin and suppression of ghrelin.  The result is that you tend to binge on carbs far more than you would on fats.

 

https://academic.oup.com/ajcn/article/88/6/1738S/4617109

 

This is just my opinion but I think it's far more likely you will fall victim to eating too many carbs if you are only focusing on your diet for two days a week than if you are focusing on it every day which, as I said, just becomes an easy to adhere to habit since you are doing it 7 days a week and it is not really that restrictive by comparison.

 

Just the way I see it; opinions can vary of course.

Edited by WaveHunter

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8 hours ago, WaveHunter said:

However, when you fast the process of intracellular recycling is ramped up markedly.  This happens because there is an interim period of time before ketone bodies are sufficiently produced to fuel the brain directly, and to fuel the body through liberated fatty acids that the body is forced to burn proteins.

That is nonsense. Protein burning, especially the own protein from muscle mass, is the last and final resort of the body. It does not burn proteins, aka reduces muscle mass, before all sugar and fat reserves are burned.

 

However it is an often repeated american internet myth ...

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22 hours ago, Pattaya46 said:

7 weeks without food !?? :wacko:

A stupid but efficient way to destroy your body :ohmy:

Edit:

Is it even possible to do so ?

and did you stop only because they took you to an hospital ?

 

That is what feasting is about, so yes. Up to 7 or 8 weeks without food. At least without calories intake. There are plenty of variations of feasting, better read a book about it than following the advices in this threat. Not eating 3 or 4 days is not feasting ... it is stupid.

 

Typical feasting in the western world is minimum 10 days, and usually 3 to 4 weeks.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, stephenterry said:

This is interesting, and needs scientific proof because I would refer you to the Every Other Day Diet where it has been scientifically proven by Krista Varady from tests on mice  initially - followed by humans - that the animals would suffer a loss of muscle mass if they were given no food on fast day. I accept mice are not human and I would appreciate your scientific link to your assertion in bold above. 

 

As an aside she recommends 'intermittent fasting' not total fasting on fasting day. While I prefer the keto approach as to what foods to consume - high fat, low carbs - I am reluctant now to continue with any water fasting over 18 hours per day. 

 

With all due respect to Varady, I'll side with the research results of a Nobel Prize winner (Yoshinori Ohsumi...link already provided in previous post) and also Dr. George Cahill of Harvard University Medical School who conducted landmark studies into the physiology of the starvation response in humans during the early 1970's.

 

The thing to keep in mind is that protein catabolism only occurs during the initial stage of a fast (approximately 72 hours), and most of this is of intracellular damaged or dysfunctional proteins (autophagy ... see Ohsumi), not essential proteins like those in muscles and the heart. 

 

Once ketone bodies are produced by the body in response to depletion of glycogen stores, they provide fuel directly to the brain, and allow for stored body fat to be converted to fatty acid that can provide ample fuel to the body.  Therefore, the reliance on burning proteins is only temporary and pretty much limited to only to the initial phases of the fast.  This is an evolutionary survival mechanism.  If it didn't work like this, we would not be here today.

 

This physiology of fasting has been well studied and proven by Cahill and also by Ohsumi in regards to autophagy.

 

Here is a simple graph from Cahill's textbook  that indicates what happens to protein during a fast, and as you can see, as ketones start to ramp up, protein is only very briefly catabolized, and then pretty much spared thereafter, contrary to what many people are led to believe by those who think you burn lots of muscle on a fast.

 

Macro-oxidation.jpg.736c3ffa3a94ed6c8f31c4cd045e77d7.jpg 

 

Here is a more precise graph that shows the progressive physiological stages of a fast, according to Cahill's textbook, and as you can see, gluconeogenesis (the conversion of protein to glucose) marketedly drops off within 48-72 hours of starting a fast.  The longer you fast, the more the body tries to spare proteins so that by stage 5, it is actually producing growth hormone to preserve muscles and lean tissues.

 

3af14f43e006d39cf92c477ed5f44353.jpg.c1b3a0dea46080476ec65a06a9ae3b44.jpg

 

This is a detailed description of those stages:

I  Feeding – During meals, insulin levels are raised. This allows uptake of glucose into tissues such as the muscle or brain to be used directly for energy. Excess glucose is stored as glycogen in the liver.

 

II  The post-absorptive phase – 6-24 hours after beginning fasting.   Insulin levels start to fall. Breakdown of glycogen releases glucose for energy. Glycogen stores last for roughly 24 hours.

 

III  Gluconeogenesis – 24 hours to 2 days – The liver manufactures new glucose from amino acids in a process called “gluconeogenesis”. Literally, this is translated as “making new glucose”. In non-diabetic persons, glucose levels fall but stay within the normal range.

 

IV  Ketosis – 2-3 days after beginning fasting – The low levels of insulin reached during fasting stimulate lipolysis, the breakdown of fat for energy. The storage form of fat, known as triglycerides, is broken into the glycerol backbone and three fatty acid chains. Glycerol is used for gluconeogenesis. Fatty acids may be used for directly for energy by many tissues in the body, but not the brain. Ketone bodies, capable of crossing the blood-brain barrier, are produced from fatty acids for use by the brain. After four days of fasting, approximately 75% of the energy used by the brain is provided by ketones. The two major types of ketones produced are beta hydroxybutyrate and acetoacetate, which can increase over 70 fold during fasting.

 

V  Protein conservation phase – >5 days – High levels of growth hormone maintain muscle mass and lean tissues. The energy for maintenance of basal metabolism is almost entirely met by the use of free fatty acids and ketones. Increased norepinephrine (adrenalin) levels prevent the decrease in metabolic rate.

 

I am not making any of this up; it's based on the research results of a Nobel prize winning scientist in the case of autophagy mechanisms, and one of the most highly regarded authorities on the physiology of starvation response in humans. 

 

Edited by WaveHunter
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On 5/8/2019 at 8:56 AM, seancbk said:

Then I started intermittent fasting on the OMAD plan (OMAD - One Meal a Day).   I only eat one meal per 24 hours. 

 

That is not "fasting", but depending on what you eat it is considered an efficient "diet". I wish you success.

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"There is no set time that water fasting should last for, but medical advice generally suggests anywhere from 24 hours to 3 days as the maximum time to go without food."

 

"If someone has health concerns, or is planning to fast for longer than 24 hours, they should seek the advice of a medical professional and consider undertaking a fast under supervision.

Water fasting will not be safe for everyone, and should not be undertaken by older adults, those under 18, or those who are underweight."

 

https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/319835.php

 

 

 

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19 hours ago, WaveHunter said:

In fact, many people have fasted for that long and even longer with absolutely no long-term ill-effects.  People do it all the time for religious reasons.

While you are right about fasting length, religious fasting usually is not fasting at all. E.g. muslims don't eat during day time during ramadan, christians are still allowed to drink alcohol (hence the creation of many "stark beers" in the middle ages).

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19 hours ago, WaveHunter said:

How much protein do you feel the body can assimilate in one meal?

That is not really relevant. Protein taken in by meat e.g. takes half a day to be processed. So it does not really matter if he eats protein two times a day or one times. 

 

The amount the body can fix into muscles is simply by a rule of thumb: you weight X kg, you can transform X g of protein into muscles.

 

However, that requires muscle building sports/work. A normal human being (not doing sports with the focus to build up muscle mass) will simply shit out 90% of all proteins eaten ... oh, that is for a modern western diet. Cultures where diet is centered around meat/fish or other proteins burn a huge deal, but still shit out lots of it.

 

So, the parleo freaks simply don't get it, they mostly eat proteins, and because a body does not burn them easily they shit out most of it 😛 hence they have a calorie reduced diet, but actually eat lots of calories, just don't burn them ... 

 

Meat btw, is mostly water. So if you are 70kg weight and want to metabolize 70g of proteins, you would need to eat about 700g meat per day. Hence we have many protein diet supplements on the market. Aka protein drinks etc.

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Posted (edited)
17 hours ago, WaveHunter said:

The popular consensus that you can only assimilate 20-30 grams of protein at any given meal is incorrect and

That is not incorrect. Only the "measure per meal" is. You hardly can metabolize more than one per mille of your body weight in proteins per day. So if you weight 70kg that is 70g and it does not matter if those 70g are split up over one meal or three meals or two meals. Digesting meat, main protein source, takes 8 to 12 hours .... you only can metabolize big amounts of protein by getting it from simple protein sources, e.g. protein powder for drinks or add ons for meals. (Hence your 20 - 30g number is actually extremely accurate).

Edited by Enki

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Posted (edited)
30 minutes ago, Enki said:

 

 

That is not "fasting", but depending on what you eat it is considered an efficient "diet". I wish you success.

You seriously need to do some reading on what constitutes a nutritional fast!  seancbk is describing a legitimate form of fasting that has highly beneficial health effects. 

 

Anyone who conduct self-fasting for months is, in my opinion, an absolute fool!  It can incredibly dangerous for most people and completely uncalled for except in a small subset of people. 

 

There is only one type of person who should fast that long and it is a morbidly obese person with life threatening complications of advanced stage Diabetes Type 2 or some other serious metabolic disorder, and then ONLY under the supervision of a knowledgable and experienced doctor, where blood and hormonal values can be closely monitored.

 

I'm not saying this to pick a fight with you but simply to keep impressionable and less informed people from thinking that what you suggest is safe, or even beneficial.

 

For most people who are not morbidly obese but simply want to improve their metabolic health or lose some body fat, a fast as short as 24 hours, or even simply abstaining from food for 18 hours (i.e.: 16:8 intermittent fast, or OMAD) has incredible and scientifically proven health benefits.

 

You do nobody at all any favors by promoting such a silly notion as self-imposed, multi-month fasts, or downplaying the benefits short-term fasting.

 

Just my personal opinion, but I think most people will not disagree with me on this.  Hopefully you'll read up and change your mind.

Edited by WaveHunter

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10 hours ago, WaveHunter said:

Why do you say that a 72 hour fast or 5 day fast is not a fast?  That makes no sense.  Care to expand on that?

Because it is to short to have any effect related to "fasting".

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1 minute ago, Enki said:

Because it is to short to have any effect related to "fasting".

Wrong.  Do some legitimate reading of metabolic physiology

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and the point is ??? stopped reading after the 1st paragraph

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46 minutes ago, Enki said:

That is what feasting is about, so yes. Up to 7 or 8 weeks without food. //

Typical feasting in the western world is minimum 10 days, and usually 3 to 4 weeks.

Unsure if your post is irony or what??

but for me feasting is the total opposite of fasting :ermm:

Feast: eat and drink sumptuously

7780797536_preparez-un-bouillon-pour-le-

 

 

47 minutes ago, Enki said:

// Up to 7 or 8 weeks without food. At least without calories intake. //

What do you mean by "At least without calories intake" ?

This thread is about "water only fasting",

so nothing else than water during a few days... or weeks??:wacko:

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1 hour ago, WaveHunter said:

Also, I should add that, while fats are more satiating, high glycemic carbs that contain high fructose corn syrup actually fool the brain's receptors for satiety through insufficient release of leptin and suppression of ghrelin.  The result is that you tend to binge on carbs far more than you would on fats.

 

https://academic.oup.com/ajcn/article/88/6/1738S/4617109

 

This is just my opinion but I think it's far more likely you will fall victim to eating too many carbs if you are only focusing on your diet for two days a week than if you are focusing on it every day which, as I said, just becomes an easy to adhere to habit since you are doing it 7 days a week and it is not really that restrictive by comparison.

 

Just the way I see it; opinions can vary of course.

I disagree, protein is far more satiating then fat. Plus it cost 30% extra to burn compared to fat. But if you compare carbs and fats maybe your right. I just wanted to mention protein.

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