Zen Buddhism

[Darknight]

An Elementary Talk on Zen - Part I

— Man-an (1591-1654)

Although the Way of Buddhahood is long and far, ultimately there is not an inch of ground on earth to travel. Although it is cultivated, realized and mastered over a period of three incalculable aeons, the true mind is not remote. Although there may be five hundred miles of dangers and difficult road, the treasure is nearby. If people who study Zen to learn the Way mistake a single step or stir a single thought, they are ten trillion lands and a billion aeons away.

You should simply see your essential nature to attain Buddhahood. The scriptural teachings expounded by the Buddha over the course of his career are instructions for seeing essential nature; when it comes to seeing essential nature itself and awakening to the Way, that is communicated separately outside of doctrine and does not stand on written symbols.

In this there are no distinctions between the sharp and the dull, the rich and the poor, mendicants and lay people, Easterners or Westerners, ancients or moderns. It only depends upon whether or not the will for enlightenment is there, and whether instruction and guidance are mistaken or accurate.

Even if you get directions from a thousand Buddhas and myriad Zen masters, if you yourself do not continue right mindfulness with purity and singleness of conciousness, you can never see essential nature and awaken to the Way. This is why you realize your own essential nature by means of your own mind and understand your own life by means of your own insight. If right mindfulness is not continuous and concentration is not pure and single minded, your efforts will be in vain.

As long as our concentration is not purely single minded in both activity and stillness, it will be hard to attain even a little accord. Concentration of right mindfulness should be cultivated most especially in the midst of activity. You need not necessarily prefer stillness.

There is a tendency to think that Zen practice will be quicker under conditions of stillness and quiet and that activity is distracting, but the power attained by cultivation in stillness is uncertain when you deal with active situations; it has a cowardly and weakly function. In that case, what do you call empowerment?

Concentration of right mindfulness is a state of absorption that is in oneself twenty-four hours a day, but one does not even know it consciously. Even though you work all day, you do not get tired out, and even if you sit alone or stand silently for a long time, you do not get bored. To search out enlightenment with principle and fact unified is called genuine study.

If you want to quickly attain mastery of all truths and be independent in all events, there is nothing better than concentration in activity. That is why it is said that students of mysticism working on the Way should sit in the midst of the material world.

Man-an (1591-1654)

— from Minding Mind - A Course in Basic Meditation

Translated by Thomas Cleary (1995)

[Snark]

The arguements

The first

Zen is a stone thrown in a pond that causes no ripples

The second

Zen is not an action. Zen is to throw no stone. The pond remains quiet.

The third.

Zen is the action of perfect action. The zen is in the throwing of the stone.

The fourth.

Zen is the pond.

The fifth

Zen is the stone

The sixth

Zen is observing all these idiots throwing rocks, yet doesn't get splashed for some reason.

and so on. Be Zen. Ignore this post.

[Darknight]

i would say:

zen is to become the stone, the throw, the water and the guy on the opposite side of the pond writing arguments .

[francois]

this is a Koan ...

"O master how can I be the stone that doesn't make a ripple on the water and so making no drops flying around?"

I praticed Kiudo for a time, and read a lot of books about it, the main line was ...

something inside you has to let this arrow go ...

in other words, I had and still have to let go some of inside feelings, emotions, fears, actions and thoughts, basicaly to get in my ownself and going on without useless brain's artificial interferences ...

better thoughts, clearer.

better actions, strong decisions, no looking backward.

taking time for thoughts.

the moment of now, here and now!

francois

[camerata]

I praticed Kiudo for a time, and read a lot of books about it, the main line was ...

something inside you has to let this arrow go ...

in other words, I had and still have to let go some of inside feelings, emotions, fears, actions and thoughts, basicaly to get in my ownself and going on without useless brain's artificial interferences ...

better thoughts, clearer.

better actions, strong decisions, no looking backward.

taking time for thoughts.

the moment of now, here and now!

francois

It seems to me that the main point of zen is to to get rid of the ego - the self-observing component of our brains which millions of years of natural selection developed for us, and presumably gave us some evolutionary advantage. So, after attaining satori, the zen master would be something like an intelligent child, without stress and with no fear of death.

For westerners there seems to be a lot of romance in the idea of mindfully sweeping leaves in the temple courtyard year after year, but in terms of the human race's dreams and aspirations, zen is a retrograde step. We'd never leave Earth before the next once-every-200,000-years meteor hits the planet if we were all practising zen for our own peace of mind.

Despite all the trouble it causes me, I think I'd prefer to keep my ego.

[francois]

hi'

It seems to me that the main point of zen is to to get rid of the ego

zen is breathing.

I breath in, I breath out, and every single thing remains quiet, just the wind blows.

I would qualify zen as an Art of living, it's very far from any western concept.

it's hard to approach and hard to get a single sense of it.

I said "I practised Kiudo" and it seems to me that for a westerner, it might be the only way to approach the Zen spirit, by actions.

getting rid of the ego ... well, I'll leave this for monks

cheers

francois

[Darknight]

It seems to me that the main point of zen is to to get rid of the ego

It is a pre requisite to enlightenment is not the specific goal.

- the self-observing component of our brains which millions of years of natural selection developed for us, and presumably gave us some evolutionary advantage.

I agree that the ego is born out of an evolutinairy response. It is used to act on primal responses like fear, greed, jealousy, ect. that's actually why it becomes a hindrance in higher emeotions like love and compassion cause the ego protests this. It much more fearfull for the ego to "loose itself" so it seeks reinforcement to it's existence. It starts cluttering your mind with thoughts when you meditate because you are pulling away from it.

You can also describe as the EGO is the material, earhtly energy which sustains you and your body and tries to keep you earthbound, whilest meditation and spiritual energy loosens you from your body and the material world. these two forces keep each other in balance in accordance to your karma and consience state. Meditation is a way to shift the balance from the ego to the spiritual energy's.

Meditation is actually a slow way to change this balance so that your body can get used to these higher energy's. The more spiritual you become the less appealing money, greed and the ego becomes. Also it becomes more difficult to be in the body as your energy balance is shifted. It also becomes more difficult to mix with other people in the world. that's why monks retreat away from the people in temples and convents.

So, after attaining satori, the zen master would be something like an intelligent child, without stress and with no fear of death.

I would agree with that, but would like to change it a litlle bit. The zen master (or buddha) is like a Knowing child, no stress , no fear just in balance with existence. He has actually overcome his ego, as a young child just isn't aware of one yet.

For westerners there seems to be a lot of romance in the idea of mindfully sweeping leaves in the temple courtyard year after year,

Just sounds like hard work , nothing much to do with zen. YOu can be zen in all aspects of life and work. The basic step is actually just becoming aware of the ego and it's actions. What you do is not important , just be mindfull and aware.

but in terms of the human race's dreams and aspirations, zen is a retrograde step. We'd never leave Earth before the next once-every-200,000-years meteor hits the planet if we were all practising zen for our own peace of mind.

That's actually a quote straight from your ego. Human race has no need for dreams or aspirations, for survival, for the future. For existence the human race is only neccesary to provide a learning curve and playground for all mankind. It's not important you become smart or rich, those are only illusions just as your current reality is an illusion.

The zen master will realize that your meteor is as a part of existence as death and life is. As future, now, an past is...he will not see this as good or bad , just as is.

Despite all the trouble it causes me, I think I'd prefer to keep my ego.

You already know you have it , and that it causes problems sometimes. I would say that you are on the right path already

[camerata]

I agree that the ego is born out of an evolutinairy response. It is used to act on primal responses like fear, greed, jealousy, ect. that's actually why it becomes a hindrance in higher emeotions like love and compassion cause the ego protests this.

I don't think the ego is as bad as you make out. Most people are able to handle love and compassion without any problems. The ego is only the bad guy to zen buddhists because it is a major obstacle to buying in to the notion (I would say the "illusion") that everything is One.

You can also describe as the EGO is the material, earhtly energy which sustains you and your body and tries to keep you earthbound, whilest meditation and spiritual energy loosens you from your body and the material world. these two forces keep each other in balance in accordance to your karma and consience state. Meditation is a way to shift the balance from the ego to the spiritual energy's.

I would describe any kind of "spiritual energy" as an illusion. If the idea helps some folks to achieve peace of mind, good on them, but I prefer to stay in the real world.

That's actually a quote straight from your ego. Human race has no need for dreams or aspirations, for survival, for the future. For existence the human race is only neccesary to provide a learning curve and playground for all mankind. It's not important you become smart or rich, those are only illusions just as your current reality is an illusion.

Well, you can blame the ego for anything and claim anything/everything is an illusion. The way I see it, it's the zen master who's under the illusion. It can't be proven that his reality or mine is an illusion. But if we ignore millions of years of natural selection, throw away our sense of self and our human aspirations.. and he's wrong, ultimately homo sapiens will die out.

The lure of total peace of mind is seductive to some, but until there is scientific proof to the contrary I'll continue to believe that zen satori is just a psychological shock applied to the mind to force it to accept the illusion that everything is One. Kind of like brainwashing yourself. I don't think evolution got it wrong.

[stroll]

"I would describe any kind of "spiritual energy" as an illusion. If the idea helps some folks to achieve peace of mind, good on them, but I prefer to stay in the real world."

So what is the real world, then? The one your ego feels comfortable in, or maybe something else?

"Well, you can blame the ego for anything and claim anything/everything is an illusion. The way I see it, it's the zen master who's under the illusion. It can't be proven that his reality or mine is an illusion."

There you go, you'd have to investigate further as to what is an illusion and what not. Some people who like to know believe Zen masters and/or others have something useful to say about realizing the truth, the self, satori or what you wanna call it.

It is not compulsory to search for the truth, but I wouldn't knock a truth-seeker of any brand.

[camerata]

So what is the real world, then? The one your ego feels comfortable in, or maybe something else?

The one that is scientifically provable and the one my senses tell me is real. Science and the senses aren't infallible, but this reality works for me on a day to day basis.

There you go, you'd have to investigate further as to what is an illusion and what not. Some people who like to know believe Zen masters and/or others have something useful to say about realizing the truth, the self, satori or what you wanna call it.

"Believe Zen masters"... right! The whole point is it's a matter of faith. It's impossible to determine what is illusion and what isn't without some kind of evidence. Once a zen master achieves enlightenment, there's no way he can know if his new perspective is just another illusion or not.

It is not compulsory to search for the truth, but I wouldn't knock a truth-seeker of any brand.

Neither would I. Zen obviously works for some people, but I reject the argument that my experience of reality is an illusion, because there is no evidence to support that view.

I find zen interesting because it's a philosophy rather than a religion. But if you convert to a new religion, you can always change your mind later. Presumably, zen is a one-way ticket after satori because you couldn't possibly get your ego back again.

[stroll]

"zen is a one-way ticket after satori because you couldn't possibly get your ego back again"

Right on, Satori wouldn't want your ego back

[Darknight]

QUOTE (stroll @ Sun 2004-06-06, 22:17:09)

So what is the real world, then? The one your ego feels comfortable in, or maybe something else?

The one that is scientifically provable and the one my senses tell me is real. Science and the senses aren't infallible, but this reality works for me on a day to day basis

All of your senses can be fooled, altered, tricked. I could send you some illusionairy tricks, or maybe we could start a discussion on the topic "do your senses register the same as mine or do we just call it the same?".

In fact Everybody has his own "Reality" in all of our senses. YOu can't be even sure if the person sitting next to you feels the same sense of hot-cold, has the same vision in color and depth, smells the same things as you ect..

We could even go further and i would suggest you maybe experiment with some of the current drugs to see how your senses can change by adding or substracting chemicals. Don't even start to say "yeah but that's an illusion, a trip that's not real".

Reality = illusion it just depends which side you are looking from. It's not because 90 percent of the masses have an average understanding of their "REALITY" that the other 10 percent are living in an illusion. This goes for both sides as well as the More advanced perceptions in your senses (hightend smell, vision, taste, sense) as the lowered perception (lowered state, no emotions, ect).

Maybe you can proclaim here that people with Down syndrome or autisisme are living outside reality?

They are living outside YOUR reality (the masses) but for them it's their own reality. If you try to explain Your reality to them you will have exactly the same problem as i'm trying to explain my Reality to you.

Things like this can't be explained, they can only be experienced. I can not explain to you what driving a car is like if you never seen one, this goes for everything.

I can't explain my experiences in shifting realities , you can only try to find for yourself. Maybe you have different conclusions, that's ok by me.

In everything i've posted on thess buddhist threads i say the same thing:

Go and experiment , look inside, try. Don't copy beliefs from old scriptures, philosophies, religions. They were written in their time for their concept of reality for the masses.

I can't and won't even try to convince you. I'm just saying go out and see for yourself. Be open for things. If you need to experience this you will, if you need to be a animalistic murderer in this life you will experience that, if you need to be a rough money oriented business man you'll be that. It's your reality, not mine

Neither would I. Zen obviously works for some people, but I reject the argument that my experience of reality is an illusion, because there is no evidence to support that view.

YOU don't have any evidence to support that view, because you don't have the experience yet. Maybe buddha's and zen masters did have that evidence, how else can you try , or would you try to explain their teachings.

By science ???

The science that doesn't accept nothing untill proven but then happily accepts it 10 years later because now they finally found a way to measure it???

It was there when they first proposed it, as it was there 20 million years ago, as it will be there. It's not because "science" only now found a way to quantify it , it didn't exist before.

Maybe you can give me the scientific explanation of accupunture, homeopathics ect? Or don't they exist in your reality ?

As many religious concepts can't be proven by science yet, maybe they will , maybe not. doesn't mean they don't exist.....

" Only when man has ruined all of mother nature, the trees, the animals, the see, will they realise they can't eat money" a Cherokee chief

The frog in the pit measures the sky by the rim of his pit" Lao tzu.

If in ANY way this world will come to an end is by people who DON'T realize "ALL IS ONE" examples abound.

[camerata]

zen is breathing.

I breath in, I breath out, and every single thing remains quiet, just the wind blows.

I would qualify zen as an Art of living, it's very far from any western concept.

it's hard to approach and hard to get a single sense of it.

I said "I practised Kiudo" and it seems to me that for a westerner, it might be the only way to approach the Zen spirit, by actions.

getting rid of the ego ... well, I'll leave this for monks

Kiudo is zen archery (sometimes spelled "kyudo"), right? I've come across this in my reading on Japan. Is this where you shut out the "inner voice" so that you can shoot the arrow with less distraction and more accuracy. Do you have to meditate to do this?

[stroll]

As I understand it, this IS a form of meditation, rather than sitting quietly, you are doing something and get a visible result. I think it is part of the Zen teachings that meditation doesn't need to be all turning inwards, but can be practised while you are actively doing something, until what you do becomes the meditation, and you become it and then you're almost there.

Sorry if this sounds like dribble, please try to get what I am saying before criticesing.

[camerata]

As I understand it, this IS a form of meditation, rather than sitting quietly, you are doing something and get a visible result. I think it is part of the Zen teachings that meditation doesn't need to be all turning inwards, but can be practised while you are actively doing something, until what you do becomes the meditation, and you become it and then you're almost there.

Sorry if this sounds like dribble, please try to get what I am saying before criticesing.

Relax, Stroll. You won't see me criticizing anyone in these forums, and you certainly won't see me criticizing someone without making an effort to understand their point of view. Shame on you for thinking I would!

About 30 years ago I read Alan Watts' The Way of Zen and a couple of books by D.T. Suzuki. Now, after living in a Buddhist country for 20 years, I am still interested in hearing what Buddhism (of any type) has to offer. And although I remain skeptical, I do appreciate anyone's efforts to answer my questions.

[camerata]

All of your senses can be fooled, altered, tricked. I could send you some illusionairy tricks, or maybe we could start a discussion on the topic "do your senses register the same as mine or do we just call it the same?".

In fact Everybody has his own "Reality" in all of our senses. YOu can't be even sure if the person sitting next to you feels the same sense of hot-cold, has the same vision in color and depth, smells the same things as you ect..

We could even go further and i would suggest you maybe experiment with some of the current drugs to see how your senses can change by adding or substracting chemicals. Don't even start to say "yeah but that's an illusion, a trip that's not real".

Reality = illusion it just depends which side you are looking from. It's not because 90 percent of the masses have an average understanding of their "REALITY" that the other 10 percent are living in an illusion. This goes for both sides as well as the More advanced perceptions in your senses (hightend smell, vision, taste, sense) as the lowered perception (lowered state, no emotions, ect).

Actually, "illusion" was your word, specifically that our "current reality is illusion."

This implies that the zen reality is not an illusion. But when I call the zen version of things an illusion - to make a point - you argue that there are many different realities and that reality equals illusion. Which doesn't seem to get us anywhere. I think the notion that the generally accepted reality (the one millions of years of evolution gave us) is really an illusion is just a zen device to shock the mind into a different take on reality.

But to get back to my original point about the value of zen in our lives: If we are all practising zen when my hypothetical meteor arrives (and we consider it an illusion), it does not seem very useful. We may die happy in the knowledge that we are not really dying at all, but we'll still get wiped out forever.

Maybe you can proclaim here that people with Down syndrome or autisisme are living outside reality?

They are living outside YOUR reality (the masses) but for them it's their own reality. If you try to explain Your reality to them you will have exactly the same problem as i'm trying to explain my Reality to you.

I wouldn't claim that at all. I'd say people with autism and other mental ailments are living IN a distorted and diminished version of the generally accepted reality. They can't function without the help of people who can live in the general reality.

People who take drugs often can't function properly either, even though they are aware that what they are seeing and feeling is only a temporary distortion of reality. These are good examples of how difficult it is to exist when you don't have a firm grasp of the reality evolution gave us.

Go and experiment , look inside, try. Don't copy beliefs from old scriptures, philosophies, religions. They were written in their time for their concept of reality for the masses. I can't and won't even try to convince you. I'm just saying go out and see for yourself.

I agree that some things have to be experienced. My problem with zen is it seems to require a lot of work over a long period of time and the end result isn't very clear.

YOU don't have any evidence to support that view, because you don't have the experience yet. Maybe buddha's and zen masters did have that evidence, how else can you try , or would you try to explain their teachings.

By science ???

Well, the point is that evidence is something that can be shown to others. Enlightenment is a personal revelation. No one knows whether it's worth having until they have it.

The science that doesn't accept nothing untill proven but then happily accepts it 10 years later because now they finally found a way to measure it???

No one ever said science has all the answers - yet! We haven't been at it very long.

Maybe you can give me the scientific explanation of accupunture, homeopathics ect? Or don't they exist in your reality ?

I couldn't give you the scientific explanation because there isn't one. The last time I looked, there wasn't a shred of evidence that acupuncture or homeopathy actually cure or prevent diseases. There is some evidence that acupuncture promotes pain relief through the release of endorphins, but it's hardly a surprise that the body releases pain-killing chemicals when needles are stuck into it! The existence of chi, and the ability to balance it by topping up yin or yang has never been proven. This corresponds with my personal experience - acupuncture didn't have any effect on the various ailments I was treated for but it did at times feel like I'd been given valium or a mild opiate.

As many religious concepts can't be proven by science yet, maybe they will , maybe not. doesn't mean they don't exist.....

Agree with that. But I think most things can be proven by science given enough time. I think it's unlikely we'll find out for sure what existed before the Big Bang, however.

If in ANY way this world will come to an end is by people who DON'T realize "ALL IS ONE"  examples abound.

Sure. This view is supported by science as well as the Cherokee. It's a pity not everyone uses science responsibly.

[stroll]

I didn't mean to offend you, camerata, I was anxious you would quickly dismiss, partly because I feel I cannot argue as well as some on this subject, partly because of what I see happening when you reply to darknight.

I think he is putting his points very well, it is clear for me, yet when you argue, it seems not so much that you disagree, but that you miss the point.

You want an answer or explanation on your terms, and do not accept when asked to approach it differently. Having read the books you mention, the subject is not new to you, what kind of answers do you want to get?

[camerata]

I think he is putting his points very well, it is clear for me, yet when you argue, it seems not so much that you disagree, but that you miss the point.

You want an answer or explanation on your terms, and do not accept when asked to approach it differently. Having read the books you mention, the subject is not new to you, what kind of answers do you want to get?

Logical ones. When someone is looking at a religion or a system of beliefs from the outside, the first thing they will want is a rational explanation. And then they'll want to know which part of the system they have to accept as a matter of faith. Finally, they'll want to know what are the benefits of buying into this particular set of beliefs.

So I don't think it's particularly logical to say that our current reality is an illusion and to make the general statement that reality = illusion. This suggests that either the zen reality is also an illusion and not worth striving for, or that it isn't an illusion at all, but a more valid reality than the one we normally accept.

I don't think it's impossible to explain zen in rational terms. In my own words I would summarize what darknight is saying like this:

"The fundamental proposition of zen is that our current reality is an

illusion, and that zen has a more valid perspective of reality - one that is ultimately more beneficial to our wellbeing. To fully appreciate the benefits, you have to experience them."

What I like about zen is that it can be explained by psychology. It doesn't require the acceptance of deities, supernatural entities or inerrant doctrines. What I don't like about it is it seems to work well on an individual basis (for achieving peace of mind), but not so well for the human race as a whole.

This doesn't mean I'm not willing to approach things in a different way. It just means I'm not willing to set aside critical thinking while I do it.

[stroll]

Thanks, I understand better what you are on about now.

I think the main point of our misunderstanding is the concept of "our reality', and WHO is the one perceiving it. I am not good at explaining it, but it is something like the observer is part of the observed? If you follow this thought, you may find similarities between Zen and science.

The matter of faith to believe here is that your human faculties of perception and reflection are more powerful than scientific instuments.

Does this make sense?

[Darknight]

Hi camerata and stroll

I'm sure enjoying this conversation even if it is so hard to put it in words. I'm not gonna quote your answers but i'll try to explain my point about "reality" more close with a graphic i've made. In one line i would say "Reality depends on your perspective"

Let me explain further with this picture:

I've tried to capture the difference between the standard perception of reality between average humans and the enlighted perception of it. To be really accurate i would need a lot of other axis regarding time, emotions ect. i'll elaborate further later, now one will do.

The graph shows a scale from material to spiritual or you could also see it as from Stone to a god like state of being.

For the average human population their vision and perception stays within the two red boundarys. Depending on your Karma or past experiences you are situated in between these boundary's more to the left (lower consiousness, more ego oriented, No morals, materialistic) or to the right (higher consiousness, more spiritual lifestyle, ect).

Let me try to explain in another graph more detailed human evolution in this.

FOr purpose of example i've put two types of human in there which everybody can distinguish as different. it's a litlle simplefied as it interacts on a multitude of levels (emotional, physical, intellectual ect..).

The serial killer is has a perception of reality were he's more to the animalistic side and will act out of primitive emotions, a killers' instinct. In his "reality" his behaviour is normal.

YOu will not be able to explain general human "reality" to him as he has not progressed further in to his karmic lessons to see this reality yet (as indicated by the green arrows, the line is his center)

The spiritual master on the other hand CAN understand this lower "reality" as he himself went through the same karmic evolution at one time, and is able to "understand" his karmic lessons and drive.

In short : the more karmic lessons learned, the wider your view becomes. The lesser your ego becomes.

Everything is moving forward in spiritual evolution where depending on your actions and the ability to resolve your Karma (learn your lessons) you will get insight in to this system. This can take 1000's of life's, many years of returning in this system ("reality") untill you find insight in to the workings. This is the basic principle of buddhism, taoism, zen ect...

The point of enlightment is actually the realisation of the overal view, the loosening of the material, the transfer in to the higher spiritual ect.

after which you will not be bound be the karmic laws of rebirth as you will not only realise the past and present but also the future, the whole, multiple dimensions of the existence.

The Biggest problem of the "MASTER" is to transfer his knowledge to people who have not reached his level of spiritual evolution yet. If he blatently confronts them with his knowledge they will think he's crazy and lock him up, as he doesn't conform to the masses view of "reality". He therefore has to be carefully to get the message across how he's reached his knowledge, whilest not disturbing the masses view of "reality". Most masters be it Jezus, Buddha, Allah ect have used figurative speach in which hidden messages have been incorporated to try to bring their understanding over on their fellow man. Unfortunatly these massages are interpreted by their followers in not their original ways which leeds to the masses missing them. For example by "Worshipping the finger bone of buddha? "

Buddha never ment this because it's highly irrelevant in your own evolution.

Zen predominatly tries to trigger your own experience.

As far as the ego concerns it's not a prerequisite to lose it as it will dissapear on it's own in your realisation. If you realise it's function its already sufficient.

As far as meditation concerns it is just a SLOW way to get your body adjusted to opening for these "higher" energy's. Indeed it's a lot of work for no obvious result , but it will change your being, the ego will counteract by not wanting to change, or even listen.

What drug users are concerned. They don't experience a "distorted" view of reality but a wider one. They are actually propelled very quickly in to those higher energy regions (being high) after which they will fall back through to a more animal like state (being down). When they're "down" they will quickly want to reach those high's again by taking something again. When they're "high" they'll sometimes will want to take something to "down" them again as their ego's are ringing the alarm bell. They will start to continously flip-flop in these "reality's" and therefor start to loose their own grip on their "reality". They are loosing their centers as their body's and mind are not capable of handling these situations.

Only meditation carried out over lot's of years can make your body and mind capable of handling these "alternate or higher realities" as you need lot's of time to adjust to and realise these informational input's

You are right that you don't have to set aside critical thinking for it, but i would say that you are already open for this , as otherwise we would not be having this conversation . If you weren't open for it your ego or brain would just shut itself off for it.

Greetings

be Zen

[stroll]

Well, I like to quote, makes it easier for me:

"Everything is moving forward in spiritual evolution where depending on your actions and the ability to resolve your Karma (learn your lessons) you will get insight in to this system. This can take 1000's of life's, many years of returning in this system ("reality") untill you find insight in to the workings. This is the basic principle of buddhism, taoism, zen ect..."

So, here we have the faith Camerata asked about!

One is required to believe that there is a continuous evolution towards enlightenment for all beings. The karmic lesson thing is already being discussed and explained by modern psychology, I think Camerata will agree.

Karmic lesson=realised experience

As this grows, the perception of reality changes, i.e. one gets to know a larger piece of it, yet it is not complete, not all, not one, or it wouldn't keep changing, hence the term 'illusion'.

On an individual level it is the ego accepting the perceived reality as the truth, as one grows old and rich in experience one might become 'wise', upward evolution.

On a collective level, it is the masses, society having a culture, a worldview. I don't need to cite examples of how this has changed over the centuries, but surely realising that the world is round is an upward development of conciousness.

On the subject of drug use I disagree with you, Darknight.

William Burroughs and Timothy Leary are dead, and so are many who believed in them. Drug users operate on a different level of reality/existance, but it has nothing to do with higher planes nor enlightenment. As a former addict I know what I am talking about.

Btw, thanks for taking the trouble to include the graphics.

[Darknight]

Well, I like to quote, makes it easier for me:

"Everything is moving forward in spiritual evolution where depending on your actions and the ability to resolve your Karma (learn your lessons) you will get insight in to this system. This can take 1000's of life's, many years of returning in this system ("reality") untill you find insight in to the workings. This is the basic principle of buddhism, taoism, zen ect..."

So, here we have the faith Camerata asked about!

One is required to believe that there is a continuous evolution towards enlightenment for all beings. The karmic lesson thing is already being discussed and explained by modern psychology, I think Camerata will agree.

Karmic lesson=realised experience

As this grows, the perception of reality changes, i.e. one gets to know a larger piece of it, yet it is not complete, not all, not one, or it wouldn't keep changing, hence the term 'illusion'.

On an individual level it is the ego accepting the perceived reality as the truth, as one grows old and rich in experience one might become 'wise', upward evolution.

On a collective level, it is the masses, society having a culture, a worldview. I don't need to cite examples of how this has changed over the centuries, but surely realising that the world is round is an upward development of conciousness.

On the subject of drug use I disagree with you, Darknight.

William Burroughs and Timothy Leary are dead, and so are many who believed in them. Drug users operate on a different level of reality/existance, but it has nothing to do with higher planes nor enlightenment. As a former addict I know what I am talking about.

Btw, thanks for taking the trouble to include the graphics.

hi stroll,

indeed that's a very good synopsis of what i tried to explain. the faith part is indeed correct although if you start to be open for it you will also start to experience it more then before. actually karma will become more quicker to show itself (maybe that's only my view or case but i experience it that way).

karmic lessons is indeed realised experience as you elequently describe it. Let me stress that it is experience and not intellectual knowledge. Reading about it only go's so far and is subject to congesture of the mind. that's why it is so hard to bring your experience to another person, unless they have a common ground it will be very hard to see the others experience. have a look at my quote's of the day in another thread. I specially put quotes in there of "masters" stressing this point to find out for yourself, not to follow them. This actually makes a lot of comon sense in this system. How can the master resolve your karma? he can't. It's not his past experiences, it not his relations you had with other beings. He can only be accounted for his carmic relationship with you and vice versa. actually the point like thai's use of the grandson becoming a monk to make merrit for his grandmother is equally far fetched.

With realization of experiances you can drop certain lessons but you can't take lessons for somebody else. it's not a voucher system

For the drug comment: I didn't mean to say that you can get enlightend by using drugs, that's surely not the case. It however can open your mind that alternate "realities" can exist as you can experience everyday when you take them. This will only teach you that your senses are fallible or expandable, this can trigger a openess for the " no science and logic approach" but i would strongly suggest not to start using them for this purpose. Most drug addicts have started their abuse by running away from their normal "reality" which complicates your experiences tenfold. Most addicts actually feed their habits because their "ego's" can't take the sensory overload on all levels.

As i said before these pictures and explanations are much more complicated then i can immediatley put on paper. try to follow and then think about it before you dismiss it. i'll try to put some more light on the working of your person as a vehicle. this is not scientifically proven but if you think about it can be found in divers medicinal practices and theories around the world.

FOr example the body:

Most people beleive the body is just that: a hump of flesh controlled by chemical reactions, ruled by a brain (you) ect.. my vision or experience is,

The body consist of 4 individual entities linked toghether with each a specific task.

1. the physical: actually the bare bones and flesh, the material part of your body.

2. the intellectual: The mind , the knowledge, sub consience and consience, Ego.

3. the emotional: The emotions, the aura, the gut feeling.

4. the spiritual: the soul, the karmic vehicle, the spirit.

These body are pretty closely linked in normal "reality" or every day life. you can only see the physical, the three others are not visible with the naked eye.

The intellectual mostly runs your body(heart, breathing, ect) and allows you to process information coming from the senses, it pretty closely linked to the physical. it doesn't extend beyond the physical very much. main center is the head and throath

The emotional and spiritual vessels actually do. The emotional is kinda a big blob which can easily extend in to your surroundings, some people call it your aura. and which depending on your feeling is more wide or close to your physical body. These emotional body's mix constantly with others of people in your vecinity and allow you to evaluate (feel) others. For example you "feel" when somebody is staring at your back, this is actually his emotional body intruding in to yours. Women are more in tune with their emotional body , hence more intuitive. Men are more in tune with the intellectual body. The emotional body originates from the gut or abdomen. this vessel constantly interact with others and can be drained easily depending on the situation.

The spiritual vessel is the link over time and place through karma, it is very faint to notice, but it will steer you into situations where you can resolve your karmic lessons. Some people call it your higher self. The spiritual one lives on after death (soul).

For example the benefits of Thai massage are not purely physical but the practice comes from ancient chinese medicine and is meant to evenly distribute your emotional body as well as relax your intellectual one. It's actually an energy interaction between the masseur (heler) and the patient. Probably the reason why the " blind" massage therapist are so higly rated is because they are more in tune with their own emotional body's.

When you take drugs not only are your senses overloaded but also your different body's are completely whacked around and unbalanced, which results in all sort of problems. different drugs also work on different parts so depending on what you take you get different effects and feelings. for example Cocaine hightens your physical abilities and slightly hightens your intellectual one whilest heavily pusching down your emotional one. Hence you become energetic and extremely emotionally cold up to very agressive from cocaine.

Only meditation by it's very slow approach is able to slowly get your different aspects of your body used to these increasing energy levels. On the downside is that you will be more quickly tired when you interact whith other people as they will drain you more quickly. Hence the effect that spiritual oriented people look for solitude to be able to progress in their efforts. All the buddhist rules about not touching monks, people's heads ect are a substraction from this approach.

Because you grasp labels and slogans,

You are hindered by

Those labels and slogans,

Both those used in

Ordinary life and those

Considered sacred.

Thus they obstruct your

Perception of objective truth,

And you cannot understand clearly.

- Linji (d. 867)

be zen or something similar

[camerata]

The matter of faith to believe here is that your human faculties of perception and reflection are more powerful than scientific instuments.

Does this make sense?

It makes sense, but human faculties of perception are notoriously unreliable. Our perception of the physical world can be altered quite easily, by drugs, lack of sleep, suggestion, stress, fear, etc. As a result, our reflections or conclusions about what we experience can be distorted. Science is a good way to verify that our perceptions aren't distorted.

Obviously, there are an infinite number of things we could believe that aren't verifyable by science, but which one to believe? Look at the Heaven's Gate cultists. They believed that aliens in a spaceship trailing the Hale-Bopp comet would transport them to some alien paradise at the time of their death. Apparently, the spaceship couldn't be detected because it was conveniently behind the comet (why hide?) and the energy used to transport people from earth couldn't be detected by our science (with that kind of technology available, why use spaceships?). Yet they believed this and killed themselves.

One could say the cultists had their own reality that had to be experienced to be believed. But I think they would still be alive if they'd applied some critical thinking to their beliefs. It's as difficult for me to accept a concept like reincarnation - attractive though it is - as it is to accept that aliens regularly visit earth.

[stroll]

"It makes sense, but human faculties of perception are notoriously unreliable. Our perception of the physical world can be altered quite easily, by drugs, lack of sleep, suggestion, stress, fear, etc. As a result, our reflections or conclusions about what we experience can be distorted.

Science is a good way to verify that our perceptions aren't distorted."

Just take it one step further.

"Look at the Heaven's Gate cultists. They believed that aliens in a spaceship trailing the Hale-Bopp comet would transport them to some alien paradise at the time of their death. Apparently, the spaceship couldn't be detected because it was conveniently behind the comet (why hide?) and the energy used to transport people from earth couldn't be detected by our science"

That's why D.K. has stressed that Zen is not about following a master.

"One could say the cultists had their own reality that had to be experienced to be believed."

Experience the master's words filling the hollow space between their ears. Wouldn't you agree when I call their reality illusionary?

"But I think they would still be alive if they'd applied some critical thinking to their beliefs. It's as difficult for me to accept a concept like reincarnation - attractive though it is - as it is to accept that aliens regularly visit earth."

Applying my critical thinking here, you are mixing up two different things.

I'd find out more about reincarnation if you find the concept attractive, plenty of literature on the subject, there is a thread on rebirth here, as well.

[camerata]

You are right that you don't have to set aside critical thinking for it, but i would say that you are already open for this , as otherwise we would not be having this conversation . If you weren't open for it your ego or brain would just shut itself off for it.

Well, obviously I'm open for anything. Even for science, an open mind is a prerequisite.

Your explanation of zen sounds much closer to "mainstream" Buddhism than I recall reading about years ago. Perhaps I've just forgotten some of it, but I had the impression that zen could be explained entirely in terms of psychology. But if rebirth is also a zen belief, I don't think that's true.

I don't think your sliding-scale of spiritualty is all that convincing. I think it works ok starting from a normal person up to a zen master, but I don't think a serial killer is simply a less-spiritual person than the rest of us. Serial killers almost all go through some abnormal upbringing when very young. Typically, it's a male with above-average IQ who is over-controlled and/or humiliated, and he grows up without developing the normal empathy we have for others (i.e. he has no conscience because of under-developed mental processes). This causes him to overdose on control, raping and killing for sexual pleasure. Even animals don't do that.

It isn't a "killer's instinct," because he kills for the pleasure of the total control it provides or to avoid getting caught after a rape. That's different from an animal killing for food. A serial killer doesn't consider his behavior to be normal. If he did, he'd rape and kill in front of other people and be totally amazed when arrested and jailed. In fact, all serial killers do their utmost to plan the crime, to cover it up and to avoid getting caught. They do this because they know it isn't normal (i.e. accepted by society) and they know the consequences that their actions will bring. This is the reason that a courtroom defense of "insanity" almost never works for serial killers.

[Darknight]

Hi camerata, stroll

"It makes sense, but human faculties of perception are notoriously unreliable. Our perception of the physical world can be altered quite easily, by drugs, lack of sleep, suggestion, stress, fear, etc. As a result, our reflections or conclusions about what we experience can be distorted.

Science is a good way to verify that our perceptions aren't distorted."

Just take it one step further.  

Actually science works as a belief system in it first stages as well. Without the creative or intuitive spark in certain people science can not exist. The scientist is merely someone who tries to prove and test their or others "outer worldly ideas" to be able to compare them with other accepted theories. These scientists then spend lots of years trying to "prove" their dream.

Theories that now are fully accepted as proven , were 50 years ago maybe complete wild story's to their current "reality".

Without that spark that for example caused leonardo da vincy to "imagine" airplanes and helicopters, 400 years before they were actually invented, Science would not exist.

As i said before when i made the first graph it has other elements to it as well for example a relation to time and speed and your perception of it. In Higher planes of "reality" your perception of speed and time is normal while actually bystanders in the normal "reality" would describe you as very quick and agitated. This experience came very close to einstein theorie of relativity which states that time and speed are interlinked with matter and energy. So was this proof or an illusion ?

It all depends on your starting point. I only feel sad about science mostly only looking to the outer world. We are slowly trying to understand the physical "inner world" now through things like DNA research and gen technology. but it still only scrathes the surface for my feeling. things like the chinese "philosophy" of Chi and Yin, Yang energy's which have been around for more then 5000 years are still not scientifically investigated

"Look at the Heaven's Gate cultists. They believed that aliens in a spaceship trailing the Hale-Bopp comet would transport them to some alien paradise at the time of their death. Apparently, the spaceship couldn't be detected because it was conveniently behind the comet (why hide?) and the energy used to transport people from earth couldn't be detected by our science"

That's why D.K. has stressed that Zen is not about following a master. 

That's indeed one of the reasons. The mind likes "simpel beliefs, no questions asked"as it is a reinforcment of it's power, of it's ego. The easyest thing you can do is blindly follow some scripture or belief. you just have to study and talk the talk your peers say. there is no reflection on yourself, just act the moves.

Buddhism and even more Zen buddhism puts the emphasis on personal development and experience. the master actually can only open a window after which you will or not will experience it. He can not transfer his view as i explained before. If you experience differently it will be actually "Your Way". He actually realises that no matter what.... you are on the right path after all....

Even the windows they "open" will be hard to see for the person who's not ready for them yet.

That's why buddha stressed:

1.everybody can reach this state.

2. i'm just a man like everyone.

3. Don't worship any image of me.

He only explained some general guidelines how to understand your karmic evolution better or quicker. What you do with it or not is actually not important.

For the master it is not important if you realise "enlightment" now or in 10.000 years.

"But I think they would still be alive if they'd applied some critical thinking to their beliefs. It's as difficult for me to accept a concept like reincarnation - attractive though it is - as it is to accept that aliens regularly visit earth."

For buddhism there is no difference between being alive or death. They are just two side of the coin called existence. Either state is a following of the previous state. No emphasis is put on "being alive is better then dying or being death". They are more logical evolutions of each other. When you die you will be reborn in a different type of existence, to continue your karmic cycle (wheel ). when you're born , you will die sooner or later

You put an emphasis on "I think they would still be alive if they'd ...." which means you think "they would be saved when ...". This just shows your western notion of Life as a final outcome, something to be feared.

If you start to dig in Buddhist pilosophies, you will be introduced to far reaching conclusions. they will surely alter your outlook on the world and it's interactions.

In the meantime i'll leave you with something to meditate about. Don't be startled immediatly , try to grasp the concept.

" Good = Bad, they both don't exist".

Z

[camerata]

That's why D.K. has stressed that Zen is not about following a master.

Um... ok, but from a quick look at Internet sources a lot of folks suggest a teacher for guidance.

"One could say the cultists had their own reality that had to be experienced to be believed."

Experience the master's words filling the hollow space between their ears. Wouldn't you agree when I call their reality illusionary?

Exactly! That's the point I've been trying to make. Their take on reality seems seriously skewed. So how does anyone know that the zen reality is not equally skewed?

[camerata]

You put an emphasis on "I think they would still be alive if they'd ...." which means you think "they would be saved when ...". This just shows your western notion of Life as a final outcome, something to be feared.

I think of death as a reminder to do something useful with my life because there is limited time available. It's a win-win situation. If death is final, I've done the best I can. If it isn't, I'll probably be very happy.

Believing that death is not final can lead to some very strange behavior - suicide bombers being the prime example.

[Darknight]

Believing that death is not final can lead to some very strange behavior - suicide bombers being the prime example. 

Missed the difference between a buddhist and a muslim again.

Muslims actually believe death is final. Their suicide bombers actually believe they are gonna get a spot next to allah with 100 virgins at their side. Because they did Allah's wish ??

A buddhist on the other hand won't be inclined to become a suicide bomber as he will believe he'll have to come back for thousand of times just to correct this karmic mistake.

Exactly! That's the point I've been trying to make. Their take on reality seems seriously skewed. So how does anyone know that the zen reality is not equally skewed?

How do you know that "YOUR" reality is not equally skewed ?? . There is no point argueing belief systems as the mind can find as many arguments contra as it can find it pro. That's why in the end the minds needs to rests it case on Belief or nothing.

I can't argue with the muslim that he wont have 100 virgins ?? neither can i argue with a an non-believer in anything that i'm right.

I can only tell what my experiences through life are or have been. that's the only thing you can base a believe on. That's why i keep saying, EXPERIENCE your own life, BE OPEN, look around you. then Take your pick.....

Buddhism is actually one of the few religions that doesn't put so much effort in to recruting members. Probably because in their view it's useless to try to convert somebody that has a different inclination through their experiences.

Most buddhist monks probably think .... Well ok , you're on the right track , keep it up..... see you next time.

[stroll]

That's why D.K. has stressed that Zen is not about following a master.

Um... ok, but from a quick look at Internet sources a lot of folks suggest a teacher for guidance.

Yes, as I said earlier, many people, including myself, believe it is very useful to have guidance, but not in order to follow and believe blindly. You shouldn't leave your brain behind, you are absolutely right in this!

But you should have an interest in wanting to understand, not just in argueing and picking on semantics. I said already I am not that good at explaining, and I am getting fed up with this, sorry.