Germany designates BDS Israel boycott movement as anti-Semitic

[candide]

The BDS movement has been launched by Palestinians in order to put non violent pressure on Israel and get some leverage despite the obvious unbalance of power between Israel and Palestinians.

 

I don't see how it could be perceived as more scandalous than occupying land by force. One side has military power, the other side tries to get other sources of power.

[Jingthing]

Some reasons to reconsider BDS.

 

It's been going on for several years with impact on Israel basically bupkis.

 

BDS couldn't even stop the Eurovision show in Tel Aviv which was a smashing success. Take the hint!

 

The suggestion of equivalence to South Africa is a total fail. White south Africans were actually colonial exploiters and had no historical connection to the land. Jews on the other hand turned to Zionism in reaction to thousands of years of persecution in the diaspora. The connection between the Jewish people and the land of Israel is very real and very ancient.

 

The goals of BDS leadership are not innocent. They mirror mainstream Palestinian goals of kicking the Jews out of Israel and killing the ones that won't go.

 

Many sick examples of antisemitism among BDS activists internationally. Failing to differentiate between Israel government policies and Jews and products sold by Jews in general.

 

The USA is never going to get behind BDS like it did in the case of South Africa.

 

Find another tactic if you seriously want to promote peace and change. BDS will never be that.

 

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[sanemax]

1 hour ago, thaibeachlovers said:

If Israel did the right thing and left the occupied territories for real ( not a pretend evacuation like in Gaza ) and the Palestinians had their own state, they might not feel the need to fire rockets at their tormenters. Making peace does work, as the British found when they started really talking to the IRA.

Sadly, the Israelis apparently don't want peace, as they keep building settlements on illegally occupied territory in violation of all international treaties.

The Palestinians aim is to make the whole of Israel an Islamic Muslim state , that is what is written in the Hamas Charter and 71% of Gazians voted them in 

[dexterm]

17 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

Some reasons to reconsider BDS.

 

It's been going on for several years with impact on Israel basically bupkis.

 

BDS couldn't even stop the Eurovision show in Tel Aviv which was a smashing success. Take the hint!

 

The suggestion of equivalence to South Africa is a total fail. White south Africans were actually colonial exploiters and had no historical connection to the land. Jews on the other hand turned to Zionism in reaction to thousands of years of persecution in the diaspora. The connection between the Jewish people and the land of Israel is very real and very ancient.

 

The goals of BDS leadership are not innocent. They mirror mainstream Palestinian goals of kicking the Jews out of Israel and killing the ones that won't go.

 

Many sick examples of antisemitism among BDS activists internationally. Failing to differentiate between Israel government policies and Jews and products sold by Jews in general.

 

The USA is never going to get behind BDS like it did in the case of South Africa.

 

Find another tactic if you seriously want to promote peace and change. BDS will never be that.

 

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>>The goals of BDS leadership are not innocent.

...link please.

 

 

Of course the religion Judaism has historical connections to Palestine, as do other peoples and religions, but that does not prevent Israel from being a European colonialist project.

How come in 1948 36 of the 37 signatories to the Declaration of Israel's Independence were born overseas, and only one of its 11 Prime Minsters, Netanyahu, was born in Israel (after of course Zionists renamed Palestine). His father was Polish and his grandmother Lithuanian.

 

How about some consideration for the indigenous Palestinian people who were the majority population when Zionist migration first started over 100 years ago and still are the majority today if they were given one man one vote.

 

All BDS is saying is end that colonialist racist supremacy. Give Palestinians their human and civil rights, recognise the wrongs that have been done in the past and work out a way of living peacefully together in one or two states..if the latter, start by ending the illegal occupation.
 

[sanemax]

1 hour ago, thaibeachlovers said:

LOL. Perhaps you are not aware that all the Jews were removed for the land currently known as Israel by the Romans, long before Islam was started. They didn't "own" the land currently known as Israel till 1948 when it was taken from the people that did occupy the land by the UN and given to the Jews. 

Yes, some land in Palestine was bought by Zionists, but that did not give them the right to say the whole country was theirs.

 

If your theory has merit, Italians own Britain, given that the Romans owned Britain centuries ago.

OK, I now understand .

Romans removed Jews from Israel, which means Jews lost the right to live there .

Jews removed Muslims from Israel and Muslims have the right to return ?

BTW , Jews have continually been living on the land for thousands of years and there were 630 000 Jews living on the land in 1947

 

 

[dexterm]

OP..
The motion said a BDS campaign calling for Israeli products to be labelled with "Don't Buy" stickers was reminiscent of the Nazi-era boycott of Jewish businesses, known in German as "Judenboykott", which used slogans such as: "Don't buy from Jews."

 

The most sickening part of the German decision is comparing Palestinian initiated BDS to Nazis, who really were anti Semites.

In a weird contorted logic: the Palestinian call to use peaceful protest to help stop a racist apartheid regime which has ethnically cleansed millions of Palestinians and illegally occupied even more of their land for 51 years... in this bizarro world...Palestinians somehow become the Nazi aggressors and the illegally occupying masters the Israelis the victims.

 

Shame on Germany. You demean the Holocaust.

https://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.premium-israel-claims-victory-after-germany-s-bds-ban-and-minimizes-holocaust-on-the-way-1.7256447
 

[dexterm]

27 minutes ago, sanemax said:

OK, I now understand .

Romans removed Jews from Israel, which means Jews lost the right to live there .

Jews removed Muslims from Israel and Muslims have the right to return ?

BTW , Jews have continually been living on the land for thousands of years and there were 630 000 Jews living on the land in 1947

 

 

You are cherrypicking your dates.

 

Firstly try 1919 or earlier..
10% Jews 90% Palestinians
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King–Crane_Commission#cite_note-hri-1

 

Try the year before your 1947
1946..
543,000    Jews    1,267,037 Palestinians

Then the year after your 1947
1948..
716,700    Jews    156,000    Palestinians

 

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jewish-and-non-jewish-population-of-israel-palestine-1517-present

 

I wonder what happened to all those disappeared Palestinians between 46 and 48? They were ethnically cleansed of course and many are still languishing in refugee camps.

That is the injustice BDS is trying to rectify.

 

BDS is protesting the Palestinians' right to return to their homeland and a restoration of land stolen from them and illegally occupied since 1967. Israel gets to keep what it stole 47-48.

[sanemax]

19 minutes ago, dexterm said:

You are cherrypicking your dates.

 

No, it was Thaibeachlover who picked that date 

[metisdead]

Some off topic posts and replies have been removed. 

[PingRoundTheWorld]

On 5/18/2019 at 8:24 PM, Morch said:

 

There are quite a few Jews, and even Israelis supporting the BDS movement. Does that make them anti-Semites?

Yes. Sadly there are plenty of Jews who hate other Jews, just like there are plenty of Americans who hate America, etc.

 

On 5/18/2019 at 8:24 PM, Morch said:

Regardless of what the Palestinians may want, or what the BDS movement might push, Israel didn't quite "tried that before", certainly not many times. Employing a false narrative to counter a false narrative is not really helpful.

In the 2000 Camp David Summit PM Ehud Barak literally offered the Palestinians lands and a two-state solution. Arafat responded by starting the bloodiest intifada ever. Terrorist organizations like the PLO and Hamas were never about achieving peace or a two-state solution. They are and have always been dedicated to the destruction of Israel.

 

On 5/18/2019 at 8:24 PM, Morch said:

And no, the currently occupied Palestinian territories (ie, the West Bank) are not used to launch rocket attacks against Israel. There originate from the Gaza Strip, which isn't occupied by Israeli forces. There's quite a lot to be said about this, but probably not directly related to BDS-Germany thing.

Isn't that the point? When Israel de-occupied Gaza it got taken over by Hamas and ever since their biggest investment wasn't infrastructure or the economy or anything that benefits their people - their biggest and only real investment was weapons and rockets to launch into Israel. What do you think will happen if Israel de-occupy the West Bank? Exactly the same thing - Hamas will slaughter the Fatah and take over control, and use the territory to launch rocket attacks all over central Israel.

[PingRoundTheWorld]

1 hour ago, dexterm said:

stop a racist apartheid regime which has ethnically cleansed millions of Palestinians

Huh? Seriously <deleted> are you talking about? Israel never ethnically cleansed anyone. Total Palestinian deaths by Israeli forces over the last 100 years amounts to less than 50,000 - with almost all of it happening during wars instigated by them (Palestinians and/or neighboring countries). Israel has never proactively declared war on anyone, and only defended itself when attacked.

[dexterm]

22 minutes ago, PingRoundTheWorld said:

Huh? Seriously <deleted> are you talking about? Israel never ethnically cleansed anyone. Total Palestinian deaths by Israeli forces over the last 100 years amounts to less than 50,000 - with almost all of it happening during wars instigated by them (Palestinians and/or neighboring countries). Israel has never proactively declared war on anyone, and only defended itself when attacked.

link please..

[Morch]

3 hours ago, dexterm said:

And Israel's refusal to allow Palestinians' right of return having once ethnically cleansed them is based on one thing only: pure racism.

 

A clause in a peace agreement could easily be negotiated: guaranteeing the right of any persecuted Jew world wide a safe haven in Israel, along with a whole host of family reunification, religious, marriage, retirement permanent residence visas. Plus a guaranteed 50:50 Jewish/non Jewish parliament.

 

It is the racism and desire to hold onto power however unjustly that I object to. That's why I support BDS.

 

While I appreciate the need to stick to your narrative, could you possible do so in a manner relating to the posts replied to? That would be your first line, in case you missed it.

 

Not interested in what, according to you,  "could be negotiated". All the more meaningless, since you do not reference any actual offers along such  lines. I was putting forth positions aired by the founder of the BDS movement. That's his take on a "solution". This here topic is about the BDS positions - discuss.

 

You don't seem to have much trouble with the racism incorporated into the BDS's founder views (the bit pointed out is, well, just a bit), guess that's what you'd term "justice".

[Morch]

3 hours ago, dexterm said:

If we are playing the "What if" game, Zionists too have missed many very costly opportunities for peace by refusing partition (1937 Peel) and compromise. If the Palestinians do not have peace, nor do Israelis.

 

Let's deal with the present please. The only way Israel can have permanent peace (the only kind worth having) is to compromise with its neighbors.... the offer from the entire Arab world has been on the table for years.. end the illegal occupation and allow return/compensation/ recognition of the Palestinian refugees...which are the corner stones of the BDS movement too.

 

I hope we're not playing the "what if" game, that was pretty much the point of my post. Doubt the instance used is a good example but going down that road is pretty much off-topic. Not sure what was thee point of the other comment ("if the Palestinians do not have peace, nor do Israelis") - seems rather obvious, while the question is actually how adversely this effects either side. Other than in some posters' fantasies, it is hard to deny that the Palestinians are worse off.

 

Compromise is a two way street. And even disregarding the fact that with respect to the Palestinians this makes a three way junction, painting Israel as the sole unwilling party would be misleading, at best. If you wish to discuss the present, then why are you referencing a peace initiative dating almost 20 years, while ignoring that a "few" things changed since then, or that the Palestinians are less than united on the notion of accepting said offer.

 

The BDS agenda goes further than that offer. And so does yours.

 

 

[Morch]

3 hours ago, candide said:

The BDS movement has been launched by Palestinians in order to put non violent pressure on Israel and get some leverage despite the obvious unbalance of power between Israel and Palestinians.

 

I don't see how it could be perceived as more scandalous than occupying land by force. One side has military power, the other side tries to get other sources of power.

 

I suggest that getting more thoroughly acquainted with BDS related views and ideology would make a for a less rose-tainted view of the movement. Read some of the views aired by founder & Co. - goes way further and deeper than posted above.  

[Morch]

3 hours ago, Jingthing said:

Some reasons to reconsider BDS.

 

It's been going on for several years with impact on Israel basically bupkis.

 

BDS couldn't even stop the Eurovision show in Tel Aviv which was a smashing success. Take the hint!

 

The suggestion of equivalence to South Africa is a total fail. White south Africans were actually colonial exploiters and had no historical connection to the land. Jews on the other hand turned to Zionism in reaction to thousands of years of persecution in the diaspora. The connection between the Jewish people and the land of Israel is very real and very ancient.

 

The goals of BDS leadership are not innocent. They mirror mainstream Palestinian goals of kicking the Jews out of Israel and killing the ones that won't go.

 

Many sick examples of antisemitism among BDS activists internationally. Failing to differentiate between Israel government policies and Jews and products sold by Jews in general.

 

The USA is never going to get behind BDS like it did in the case of South Africa.

 

Find another tactic if you seriously want to promote peace and change. BDS will never be that.

 

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With regard to the last line - I don't think the concept is a total miss. More to do with the application. Had the BDS agenda actually been less into confrontation, and more into solutions (yeah, including the rhetoric and distancing themselves from extremists/bigots) it may have been more successful.

 

But then, IMO, the BDS isn't really about BDS. If it was, there are more effective ways of going about it, and it would make better sense taking a more nuanced approach. What the BDS is actually "good" for, is  making extreme criticism/demonization of Israel more mainstream. The false narrative implied is that the BDS is a civil rights movement, hence people supporting it can't be bigots, extremists, racists or whatever.

 

[Morch]

2 hours ago, dexterm said:

>>The goals of BDS leadership are not innocent.

...link please.

 

 

Of course the religion Judaism has historical connections to Palestine, as do other peoples and religions, but that does not prevent Israel from being a European colonialist project.

How come in 1948 36 of the 37 signatories to the Declaration of Israel's Independence were born overseas, and only one of its 11 Prime Minsters, Netanyahu, was born in Israel (after of course Zionists renamed Palestine). His father was Polish and his grandmother Lithuanian.

 

How about some consideration for the indigenous Palestinian people who were the majority population when Zionist migration first started over 100 years ago and still are the majority today if they were given one man one vote.

 

All BDS is saying is end that colonialist racist supremacy. Give Palestinians their human and civil rights, recognise the wrongs that have been done in the past and work out a way of living peacefully together in one or two states..if the latter, start by ending the illegal occupation.
 

 

BDS positions, views, agenda and ideology were discussed on this forum plenty of times. You have taken part in many, if not most such "discussions". Pretending things were never sourced is just an attempt to derail the topic. We don't have to rehash each and every detail in order to discuss something which have been discussed many times in the past. If you're having trouble remembering what the BDS is about, go have a look at these topics, open the relevant Wikipedia pages or whatever - and cherry-pick a version to your liking. 

 

I think you'll find it difficult to come up with an example of a colonial project which was founded on much of a historical, religious and cultural connection basis. And, of course, not really what this topic is about. Same goes for the usual talking point about signatories of Israel's Deceleration of Independence - doesn't have anything to do with anything, certainly not with the OP.

 

As for "all BDS is saying...." - no. The BDS rhetoric and agenda go further than that, and so do yours. Trying to pretend otherwise doesn't cut it.

 

 

[Morch]

1 hour ago, dexterm said:

link please..

 

With regard to casualties, doubt you aren't aware of figures:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_casualties_of_war

Cherry-pick away. Perhaps try to tie it to the actual topic, though - which you seem bent on hijacking.

[Jingthing]

The insult phrase "Progressive Except Palestine" typically used to attack progressive Jews in particular is related to this. So for an extremist BDS supporter a progressive Jew that doesn't support BDS for lots of good reasons (it's too much like Nazi don't buy from Jews laws, it's leadership supports destroying Israel, etc.) is a so called PEP.

Here's an interesting twist on that --

 

[stevenl]

14 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

The insult phrase "Progressive Except Palestine" typically used to attack progressive Jews in particular is related to this. So for an extremist BDS supporter a progressive Jew that doesn't support BDS for lots of good reasons (it's too much like Nazi don't buy from Jews laws, it's leadership supports destroying Israel, etc.) is a so called PEP.

Here's an interesting twist on that --

 

Until the last line I thought you were talking about Israel.

[Jingthing]

1 minute ago, stevenl said:

Until the last line I thought you were talking about Israel.

I'm so not surprised.

Yes, the right wing is way too strong in Israel.

Another twist on PEP at the people using that lame insult is -- regressive because of Palestine. 

Not saying that is deserved anymore than PEP is but I posted this so that people might think a little bit about exactly what they are supporting by supporting the BDS movement. 

[Patriot1066]

On 5/18/2019 at 8:26 AM, Morch said:

 

I'm sure you're proud, but also not particularly informed. The amount of Israeli-related stuff in tech and medicine makes it quite difficult to avoid all related products. People into this nonsense usually focus on the more obvious, or convenient objects. Let's just say that not buying anything made in Israel doesn't really cover it. But whatever gets you through the day.

 

With regard to BDS rhetoric and politics, it usually inhabits the more extreme version of "solutions" - with a strong showing of half-cooked one-state notions. In the same manner, it is rather hard to claim wishing for peaceful, cooperative solutions when engaging in the sort of extreme rhetoric such as appearing in the post above.  

 

As for the German decision - I wouldn't label all BDS efforts and activists as being about antisemitism. There's obviously quite a lot of that, yes - but bundling everyone together is usually a bad move.

 

It is virtually impossible to avoid anything having an Israeli content particularly IT products. But these BDS supporters won’t give up their tech stuff or things they want. 

 

Better to boycott the states that want Israel destroyed and kill Christians such as most of their neighbours run by the ‘religeon of peace’.

 

BDS is a racist policy propagated by the left

[thaibeachlovers]

On ‎5‎/‎20‎/‎2019 at 5:29 PM, Morch said:

 

More "what if". If the Palestinians accepted the partition plan, or chose negotiation over rejectionism and violence - they wouldn't be in the sorry state they are in. But in some posters' world, the Palestinians are never ever accountable or responsible for anything, not even their own choices and decisions.

 

How was Israel's withdrawal from the Gaza Strip "pretend" isn't explained. Same goes for the connection between this bogus "argument" and rockets attacks.

 

Peace making takes both side. 

Do tell us how many Palestinian fishing boats set sail to the sea every day?

They are no more "free" than they used to be, except there are no Israelis living in the strip.

The Israelis have all the power, so it's up to them to make the concessions to gain peace.

If they don't, their great grandchildren will still have rockets fired at them

[bristolboy]

On 5/20/2019 at 6:19 PM, Jingthing said:

The insult phrase "Progressive Except Palestine" typically used to attack progressive Jews in particular is related to this. So for an extremist BDS supporter a progressive Jew that doesn't support BDS for lots of good reasons (it's too much like Nazi don't buy from Jews laws, it's leadership supports destroying Israel, etc.) is a so called PEP.

Here's an interesting twist on that --

 

Wow! Nice piece of bigotry. On the one hand you get indignant if Israeli Jews are all tarred with the same brush, but when it comes to Palesitinian Muslims. not so much.

[JimmyTheMook]

I'm boycotting Jesus.

He a Jew from Israel.

[Morch]

5 hours ago, Patriot1066 said:

It is virtually impossible to avoid anything having an Israeli content particularly IT products. But these BDS supporters won’t give up their tech stuff or things they want. 

 

Better to boycott the states that want Israel destroyed and kill Christians such as most of their neighbours run by the ‘religeon of peace’.

 

BDS is a racist policy propagated by the left

 

So, in your obviously informed opinion, anyone on "the left" is automatically a BDS supporter? Care to support this with....anything?

[Morch]

4 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Do tell us how many Palestinian fishing boats set sail to the sea every day?

They are no more "free" than they used to be, except there are no Israelis living in the strip.

The Israelis have all the power, so it's up to them to make the concessions to gain peace.

If they don't, their great grandchildren will still have rockets fired at them

 

Hundreds, if the weather permits. The issue is more to do with how how far they can go to sea. Not that this actually got much to do with the OP, or even my the post your replied to. In fact, it doesn't even relate to your own claim of "pretend". Naturally, no discussion or mention of the reason the blockade is in place, or that it wasn't always the case.

 

The logic of the two bottom lines escapes me. If one follows your argument, it would appear that the stronger party is actually at a disadvantage with regard to negotiations. Other than reflecting some wishful thinking, nothing offered to support this point of view, or the rationale behind it. As for the last bit, maybe so, but that would also imply the Palestinians' lot won't improve. Seems like the main motivation of your posts is less to do with that part of the situation.

[Morch]

3 hours ago, bristolboy said:

Wow! Nice piece of bigotry. On the one hand you get indignant if Israeli Jews are all tarred with the same brush, but when it comes to Palesitinian Muslims. not so much.

 

And the deflections are off...

[bristolboy]

40 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

And the deflections are off...

So calling someone out on a bigoted characterization of the people BDS is supporting is a deflection? You think that should be given a pass? 

Edit: I just noticed that you actually gave Jingthing's bigoted post a "like". Very revealing.

[Jingthing]

32 minutes ago, bristolboy said:

So calling someone out on a bigoted characterization of the people BDS is supporting is a deflection? You think that should be given a pass? 

Edit: I just noticed that you actually gave Jingthing's bigoted post a "like". Very revealing.

So you're the like police now? 

You know what I think is bigoted?
Progressives mostly in Europe but now spread to the USA telling other progressives that they are not pure enough to be real progressive because they support human rights for Palestinians, usually support a two state solution, and also support the right of Israel to exist and defend itself (even if not supporting the usual right wing governments in power). Often these progressives being attacked that way are Jews. From my POV, that's bigoted. This kind of thing has become a plague on U.S. college campuses where Jews a solid progressive base are having to deal with antisemitism not only from the "trump" style white supremacists but now purist leftists as well.