MEV Refused entry

[madmaxx77]

Hi All,

 

I have been refused entry with an MEV at the Padang Bezar border (20/05/2019 at 10:45am) on the pretense:

 

1) I was Doing A visa Run (i.e. returning the same day)

2) Did not have a booking for the hotel (but a rental contract)

3) Did not have a booked flight out within 15 days

 

I was shown a photocopy that says 2 and 3 are the requirements and a message (in Thai, with the definition of Visa run).

 

I showed the 20000 Thb that are requested (actually more).

I successfully entered the same border post (the same day) without being  requested 2 and 3 or accused of 1, two months ago.

Later that day, I entered the Wang Prachan post without problems.

 

My questions are?

 

1) I am under the impression that all of the above does not matter when one holds an MEV. Has this changed?

2) Besides the fact that having a flight out in 15 days when the entry allows two months does not make sense, and the rudeness and yelling; how can we react to such behaviour? Can I make a formal complaint?

 

Thanks in advance for your help

[jacko45k]

21 minutes ago, madmaxx77 said:

1) I am under the impression that all of the above does not matter when one holds an MEV. Has this changed?

Apparently not, it seems to vary. These 'rules' are being applied to people with Visas and without.  Heard of a few. Usually land borders (except Poi-Phet) are Ok though. 

The 15 days flight out does not make sense .

 

What type of Multiple Entry Visa do you have?

Edited May 22, 2019 by jacko45k

[ubonjoe]

What type of multiple entry visa (MEV?) do you have?

1. Many crossing at the border with Malaysia require you to stay overnight before re-entering the country.

2.  Odd requirement.

3. That makes no sense unless you were applying for a 15 day visa on arrival.

[BritTim]

Is it possible that the official missed the fact that you had a visa, and thought you were trying to enter visa exempt? That would make the requirements a little less strange. Overall, though, it seems like the official took a dislike to you, and decided to show you the requirements for a visa on arrival, claiming they applied to an METV.

EDIT: I would personally not try to make a formal complaint, even though justified. It is unlikely to get you anywhere.

Edited May 22, 2019 by BritTim

[Peterw42]

OP, an immigration officer can make a decision if they think you are a genuine tourist or living in Thailand. Irrespective of the rules/laws etc

 

You are bouncing back in on the same day, you have a rental agreement, probably thai bank accounts and no ticket out. Its at least your second same day re-entry. (3rd 90 day stay)

 

I am not an immigration officer but even I would think you are living in Thailand, and would ask how you can be supporting yourself (for up to a year stay) without working.

 

3-4 things that tag you as not being a tourist then you are surprised you have been tagged as not a tourist. If you are trying to present as a tourist, wait a few days before re-entry, ideally re-enter at another border crossing, dont show documents or bank accounts that tourists dont usually have, arrange for a ticket out.

 

At the end of the day immigration has full discretion to decide if you are genuine, not working etc and refuse you for any reason, they dont have to justify what rule/law etc. Being fluent in Thai and covered in temple tattoos could be reason enough to suggest you are not a tourist but residing permanently in Thailand.

 

 

 

Edited May 22, 2019 by Peterw42

[VocalNeal]

40 minutes ago, madmaxx77 said:

My questions are?

 

1) I am under the impression that all of the above does not matter when one holds an MEV. Has this changed?

2) Besides the fact that having a flight out in 15 days when the entry allows two months does not make sense, and the rudeness and yelling; how can we react to such behaviour? Can I make a formal complaint?

At the discretion of the Immigration Officer?

[scubascuba3]

Is it possible that the official missed the fact that you had a visa, and thought you were trying to enter visa exempt?

They certainly can miss the visa, happened to me, especially if the visa number hasn't been written on the arrival card

[gamini]

5 hours ago, jacko45k said:

Apparently not, it seems to vary. These 'rules' are being applied to people with Visas and without.  Heard of a few. Usually land borders (except Poi-Phet) are Ok though. 

The 15 days flight out does not make sense .

 

What type of Multiple Entry Visa do you have?

Have you been in the kingdom more than 180 days in the past year? If so, you cannot call yourself a tourist

[sanemax]

Just now, gamini said:

Have you been in the kingdom more than 180 days in the past year? If so, you cannot call yourself a tourist

He can call himself  whatever he likes and you cannot say otherwise

[scubascuba3]

Have you been in the kingdom more than 180 days in the past year? If so, you cannot call yourself a tourist

Of course you can

[MaksimMislavsky]

5 hours ago, madmaxx77 said:

Can I make a formal complaint?

At your peril

[madmaxx77]

Hi All,

as I am new, I hope this reaches everyone.

Thanks for comments and suggestions.

The Visa number was on the card and was noticed. I am not covered in tats and my Thai is basic to be optimistic.

One needs a rental contract to open a bank account to then bring the money in for a Retirement visa.

I concur on the disliking theory and relative lack of results via a formal complaint. However the point that remains is the requirement to spend a day out when having a visa (officially!) is or is not existing (anyone can enforce whatever comes to their mind). In this case there can be 2 days 3 days or more.

And following one of the questions, are there more than one type of MEV? The one I have allows 5 entries and I am not aware of others.

Have a nice day.

[ubonjoe]

2 minutes ago, madmaxx77 said:

And following one of the questions, are there more than one type of MEV? The one I have allows 5 entries and I am not aware of others.

There is a multiple entry tourist visa that allows unlimited 60 day entries for 6 months from date of issue. Code TR on the visa sticker.

There is also multiple entry non immigrant visas that allow unlimited 90 day entries for one year from the date of issue. 

[JackThompson]

9 hours ago, Peterw42 said:

how you can be supporting yourself (for up to a year stay) without working.

The METV has it's own financial requirements - higher than a Tourist Visa.  That, combined with the ability to make these trips showing cash in-hand each time, should be sufficient.

 

9 hours ago, Peterw42 said:

At the end of the day immigration has full discretion to decide if you are genuine, not working etc and refuse you for any reason, they dont have to justify what rule/law etc.

Legally, they do not have that discretion.  In practical terms, given the law is seen as some sort of "optional guide" and not enforced top-down, they can get away with this behavior.

 

4 hours ago, gamini said:

Have you been in the kingdom more than 180 days in the past year? If so, you cannot call yourself a tourist

There is no such law/rule.  But, IOs have complained that 60-days on a first-time single-entry visitor is "impossible" / "too long."   Again, in practical terms, an IO can decide 10 days is "too much" and nothing can be done about it, due to the complete lack of functional hierarchy to ensure laws (and only the laws) are enforced consistently.  

 

Each entry-point operates as it's own separate country, using whatever arbitrary "rules" the local supervisor deems appropriate at that particular moment in time.  It appears Pedang Besar has gone to the dark-side.

[KhaoYai]

To repeat what I said in another thread, I was worried that I might be refused on an METV as I come and go so much.  I asked at Suvarnabhumi when I left in April - the I.O. looked at my entry and exit stamps and said I'd be OK as I leave and stay out a number of weeks. I got the impression that what they are looking for is border runners who are in fact, living in Thailand on tourist visas.  Clearly they don't pull everyone as there seems to be plenty still living in Thailand without the correct visa but I think they should count thereselves lucky - times seem to be changing.  I wouldn't rely on that for much longer.

[impulse]

4 hours ago, scubascuba3 said:

4 hours ago, gamini said:

Have you been in the kingdom more than 180 days in the past year? If so, you cannot call yourself a tourist

Of course you can

 

Of course you can call yourself whatever you like.  The Thai Revenue Department says you're a tax resident, though.

 

https://www.rd.go.th/publish/6045.0.html

 

Not a big stretch to believe that IO's know this inconvenient little tidbit, and have a hard time with a tax resident coming and going on tourist visas.

 

[JackThompson]

3 minutes ago, KhaoYai said:

To repeat what I said in another thread, I was worried that I might be refused on an METV as I come and go so much.  I asked at Suvarnabhumi when I left in April - the I.O. looked at my entry and exit stamps and said I'd be OK as I leave and stay out a number of weeks. I got the impression that what they are looking for is border runners who are in fact, living in Thailand on tourist visas.  Clearly they don't pull everyone as there seems to be plenty still living in Thailand without the correct visa but I think they should count thereselves lucky - times seem to be changing.  I wouldn't rely on that for much longer.

If the visa is "incorrect" then the terms specified for the visa functionality is incorrect.  The terms are in no way the fault of foreigners, and doling out abusive treatment and/or refused entry to those following the published laws/rules - in fact violating the Immigration Act to do so - is uncivilized (to put it mildly). 

 

It is up to the Thai authorities to make any changes they deem needed to the terms they created for the visas they Issue. 

 

I can only guess that the folks at the top do not impose more restrictive changes, because they know this would only hurt Thais and benefit the citizens of other nations in the region who would get the business.  But, by not reigning-in their rogue IO-supervisors, they are none the less allowing this to occur.

[atecom]

Ahh Damnit, I am scheduled to cross at Pedang Besar on an METV in a few days time. Ahh well I guess Ill see how it goes, If denied, I might try a direct flight to CNX, as there still seem to be very few reports of issues there.

[PingRoundTheWorld]

10 hours ago, Peterw42 said:

I am not an immigration officer but even I would think you are living in Thailand, and would ask how you can be supporting yourself (for up to a year stay) without working.

METV requires minimum 200,000 baht in the bank to get and a letter of guarantee from an employer at your home country. Since it grants 6-9 months of stay that translates to all applicants having at least 22-33k baht a month available to them without working throughout their stay. It's very unlikely that someone with access to that kind of money and guarantee from his employer would work in Thailand illegally regardless of their length of stay. The whole point of the METV is to grant long-term stays.

 

As for the OP - it sounds like the IO just didn't like you. Those are not official rules. There's nothing prohibiting same-day visa runs, lease is an acceptable substitute for hotel, and your onward plane ticket can be within 60 days on METV.

[Peterw42]

12 minutes ago, PingRoundTheWorld said:

The whole point of the METV is to grant long-term stays.

Its for multiple entries for "tourism" a 60 day stay each time. I dont think it was ever intended as a visa to use back to back to live in Thailand.

 

I know its not official and the rules say otherwise but there appears to be an awful lot of these denials of entry for people using the visa as a pseudo long stay visa. I think its important nowadays to present as a tourist doing tourist things.

[SteveK]

It's seems odd to me that there are still so many long-term visitors to Thailand who don't understand what the tourist visa is intended for. However, I think at least some of the blame for this should be placed on the various Thai embassies around the world, websites and advice should be updated to explain that back to back tourist visa users should expect to be questioned, if not refused entry.

 

I'm sure that there are some genuine tourists who are plodding around the country very slowly under their own steam and taking many months to explore what Thailand has to offer. However, I suspect the vast majority of tourist visa abusers are simply spending a lot of time enjoying their newly-found teerak. Are they real tourists? Well, in their eyes I am sure that they are, they are exploring, spending money, taking photos etc, it's just the amount of time that they may end up spending means that they are no longer viewed as genuine tourists, I know for a fact that Thailand is not the only country in the world to take this very sensible stance!

 

At what point you are no longer a tourist and could be considered to be living in the country is not clearly defined, if at all, and with rules being what they are in Thailand, the more you push it the more trouble you will encounter. Western tourists are almost certainly used to clearly defined and enforced rules and regulations, but the goalposts are always changing in Thailand, but then it's the differences from my awful home country which makes Thailand so great for me.

 

Now that I am used to the way things are done here, I allow the right amount of time to get things done. Yes, I still get annoyed, particularly with my bank, but I no longer let things get to me. I just have to sit down, drink a manao soda and think "I could be at home, I could be at home, I could be at home", and suddenly, I feel a lot better.

Edited May 22, 2019 by SteveK

[KhaoYai]

2 hours ago, JackThompson said:

If the visa is "incorrect" then the terms specified for the visa functionality is incorrect. 

I'll stand corrected but as far as I know, a visa doesn't guarantee entry. I believe immigration officers have a degree of discretion - I know they do in the UK. Granted, that discretion probably has ground rules which are probably abused but isn't living in Thailand on tourist visas a form of abuse too?

[CelticTam]

You are not allowed to leave Thailand and return same day - even if you have a valid visa. This regulation Was introduced around 2014. I know, as I experienced a non-entr on theses grounds at Sadao. Came back next day, no problem.

[riclag]

6 minutes ago, KhaoYai said:

I'll stand corrected but as far as I know, a visa doesn't guarantee entry. I believe immigration officers have a degree of discretion - I know they do in the UK. Granted, that discretion probably has ground rules which are probably abused but isn't living in Thailand on tourist visas a form of abuse too?

If some one applies and meets the requirements for a visa by representatives of the kingdom and then comes half way around the world in some cases ,only to find another department refuses their entry is wrong 

Edited May 22, 2019 by riclag

[impulse]

1 minute ago, riclag said:

If some one applies and meets the requierments for a visa by represenitives of the kingdom and then comes half way around the world in some cases ,only to find another department refuses their entry is wrong 

 

While I agree that there is a little too much uncertainty, there are a lot of people who apply for and receive a tourist visa, who then show up and start tending bar, doing wedding photos for cash, running illegal tourist groups, work in illegal boiler rooms, etc.  That's why IO's always have discretion.

 

Whether they use it wisely and for legitimate purposes is another question entirely.

 

[SteveK]

2 minutes ago, riclag said:

If some one applies and meets the requirements for a visa by representatives of the kingdom and then comes half way around the world in some cases ,only to find another department refuses their entry is wrong 

Yes, it is wrong that the embassy can issue a visa without having the ability to know whether or not the visitor would be allowed to enter. The embassy would say they are just doing their job. Likewise immigration in the country of choice.

 

As far as the traveller is concerned, it's tough luck.

 

We live in the information technology age, embassies round the world should be able to communicate with immigration instantly and seamlessly. I can book a taxi in Ecuador from my mobile phone, but the Royal Thai Consulate in New York cannot get in touch with Thailand immigration before issuing a visa.

[CelticTam]

On a separate note, if you enter Thailand 3 times within a rolling period of 180 days without a  valid visa, you may be considered as a non-tourist with the the prospect of being denied entry. I understand this rule can be applied to those entering by air, so be aware that you think you can enter multiple times without a visa. Maybe, Ubonjoe can confirm

[riclag]

2 minutes ago, impulse said:

 

While I agree that there is a little too much uncertainty, there are a lot of people who apply for and receive a tourist visa, who then show up and start tending bar, doing wedding photos for cash, running illegal tourist groups, work in illegal boiler rooms, etc.  That's why IO's always have discretion.

 

Whether they use it wisely and for legitimate purposes is another question entirely.

 

yes thats true to some extent but the people who are denied entry aren't being denied  for running illegal tourist groups,work in illegal boiler rooms, start tending bar, doing wedding photos for cash, etc. Many are being denied before those violations occur!

[impulse]

11 minutes ago, riclag said:

yes thats true to some extent but the people who are denied entry aren't being denied  for running illegal tourist groups,work in illegal boiler rooms, start tending bar, doing wedding photos for cash, etc. Many are being denied before those violations occur!

 

That's true in some cases, but there are many cases where the illegal activity has been going on for months and only ends when an IO stops them from coming back into Thailand.  So a lot of legitimate tourists pay for the transgressions of others. 

 

Not unlike a lot of life...

 

On a side note, I've never understood the mentality that says it's better to show your long term apartment lease than a hotel reservation when protesting your status as a "tourist".   With computers, printers and refundable online bookings, that's just lazy.

 

[BritTim]

21 minutes ago, SteveK said:

Yes, it is wrong that the embassy can issue a visa without having the ability to know whether or not the visitor would be allowed to enter. The embassy would say they are just doing their job. Likewise immigration in the country of choice.

 

As far as the traveller is concerned, it's tough luck.

 

We live in the information technology age, embassies round the world should be able to communicate with immigration instantly and seamlessly. I can book a taxi in Ecuador from my mobile phone, but the Royal Thai Consulate in New York cannot get in touch with Thailand immigration before issuing a visa.

It is not as simple as just contacting immigration. To know if entry will be denied, you need to know, at least, the entry point that will be used, and the IO supervisor who will be on duty. At the majority of land crossings, and some airports, there is no need to check with anyone because we know if you have a visa entry will only be denied according to the rules prescribed by Thailand's Immigration Act. At those entry points that do not follow the law, it often depends on which immigration official is at the counter when you arrive, and that official's supervisor, whether additional unofficial reasons for denied entry (over and above those prescribed by law) will be applied.

 

Indeed, it is instructive to look at what happens when immigration is consulted before issuing a visa. When you apply for the Thailand Elite program, immigration typically takes 1-4 months to screen your application. At the end of that time, you receive a notification that your membership application is accepted, but that immigration may still deny entry when you arrive at the airport to have the Thailand Elite visa affixed to your passport.