Anyone else having extreme difficulty getting a Non B lately?

[pineappleclub]

I'm trying to start my restaurant here in Thailand and I've got quite a bit of experience running restaurants from back home in MN, but the biggest risk to everything seems to be whether or not I'll be given a WP3 which would allow me to to get my Non B and work permit. I've already invested and leased and remodeled a unit. I had assumed that as long as I was really doing business, I wouldn't have any issues, but for whatever reason this doesn't seem to be the case.

 

I've recently switch lawyers as everything my previous lawyer promised me fell through, and the new lawyer is a Thai lawyer/accountant and comes off good recommendations from some well-sized companies from friends.

 

However in my talks with her, even with the employee requirements, capital requirements, the scrutiny of the social funds and labor departments is making it very difficult to get a WP3 and work permit. It also seems that at any point things just might not get accepted.

 

I'm curious if anyone else has been having these issues and how they solved them if they did. All my ducks seem to be in order yet I'm quite worried that all my money already invested will be a total loss if I'm not even able to get setup and work.

[BritTim]

Good luck! I have no first hand experience, but I have heard of others who have had difficulty getting work permits associated with a restaurant business. Great care is apparently needed in the application process to steer clear of a work description that suggests violation of the prohibited occupations list. In particular, see Item 3 in category B:

Quote

Commercial: all retailing not in category C. Or trading not in Category C, selling food and drinks, trading of antiques & fine arts

 

Edited May 23, 2019 by BritTim

[pineappleclub]

Interesting... My lawyer explained the scrutiny coming from many foreigners using work visas simply to stay in Thailand and not actually operate a business.

 

But the current difficulty of it seems to fly directly in conflict with the announcements/plans to open Thailand up for more foreign investment.

[JackThompson]

1 hour ago, pineappleclub said:

Interesting... My lawyer explained the scrutiny coming from many foreigners using work visas simply to stay in Thailand and not actually operate a business.

I'm not sure why visitors would do that, given even the Elite Visa is cheaper than running a non-profitable business.

 

1 hour ago, pineappleclub said:

But the current difficulty of it seems to fly directly in conflict with the announcements/plans to open Thailand up for more foreign investment.

I don't think they are thinking about restaurants in that context - though they should be, as you will be creating jobs. 

 

It is a mistake to look only at macro-economic factors, w/o considering that every employment success-story for a Thai is in the nation's interest - and that it is their job to facilitate better economic conditions for ALL Thais - not just stock-market investors and such.

 

This problem is not unique to Thailand.

[impulse]

48 minutes ago, JackThompson said:

Quote

But the current difficulty of it seems to fly directly in conflict with the announcements/plans to open Thailand up for more foreign investment.

I don't think they are thinking about restaurants in that context - though they should be, as you will be creating jobs. 

 

While it is a respectable vocation, opening a restaurant is a zero sum for employment.  Any business they gain will generally be at the expense of another local restaurant.  It's not high tech, not zoomy, and doesn't move Thailand any closer to Thailand 4.0.  Food service is also on the list of protected occupations, which says a lot about how the locals view the foreign competition.  I can't see that being an appealing target for more foreign investment.

 

I'd suggest the OP take your advice about the Elite visa, and carefully re-evaluate pumping any further money into the business as a passive investor.  And realize that the other local restaurants will be getting the red-eye if he succeeds and doing whatever they can to derail his venture.  If he as much as brings a cup of coffee to a table, he could lose everything unless he's structured properly.  And good luck getting structured properly as a micro business of less than 100 employees.  Even a lawyer that can do great things for some "well size companies" can't work miracles for a micro business in the wrong sector.

 

Edited May 23, 2019 by impulse

[JackThompson]

14 minutes ago, impulse said:

While it is a respectable vocation, opening a restaurant is a zero sum for employment.  Any business they gain will generally be at the expense of another local restaurant. 

Well, I suppose that may be the case - especially now.   Folks I know in Bangkok and Pattaya/Jomtien, serving Westerners, all report "slow, slow - even high season" - and have immigration primarily to thank for this.  Untold thousands of decent Thai jobs thrown into the sea for nothing but their greed and xenophobia. 

 

So, labor looks at the shrunken-market that remains, and may be deciding to apply some protectionism for Thai-owned restaurants.

 

16 minutes ago, impulse said:

If he as much as brings a cup of coffee to a table, he could lose everything unless he's structured properly. 

Absolutely true - crossing that line must be avoided at all costs.

[eldragon]

This is discouraging news. Ive always thought in the back of my head that Id open a food business in Thailand after I retire.

Where are you planning to open this business? Are you sure youre providing the appropriate amount of tea money?


Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect

[stevenl]

9 hours ago, eldragon said:

This is discouraging news. Ive always thought in the back of my head that Id open a food business in Thailand after I retire.

Where are you planning to open this business? Are you sure youre providing the appropriate amount of tea money?


Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect

Teamoney is not required and a bad idea.

[BestB]

I am sure others would know better but I first got non b and then applied for WP not other way around.

 

you first open company , then apply for single entry non b.

 

once restaurant is set up, staff in place , then you apply for wp.

 

once you get wp, you apply for visa extension based on employment .

[ubonjoe]

27 minutes ago, BestB said:

I am sure others would know better but I first got non b and then applied for WP not other way around.

It does not  work that way now. You have to have a work permit approval letter or a WP3 receipt to a apply for a non-b visa now.

It might still be possible at a few far away honorary consulates but certainly no where nearby.

[BestB]

27 minutes ago, ubonjoe said:

It does not  work that way now. You have to have a work permit approval letter or a WP3 receipt to a apply for a non-b visa now.

It might still be possible at a few far away honorary consulates but certainly no where nearby.

In Penang , can get non b by providing you are a shareholder and/or director plus a letter of job offer I believe .

 

i know my accountant still send people to Lao for non b.

 

but no personal experience as I have had my wp for a decade already 

[ubonjoe]

4 minutes ago, BestB said:

In Penang , can get non b by providing you are a shareholder and/or director plus a letter of job offer I believe .

It still would not be done. I can assure many people have been turned away if they did not have a work permit or a approval letter or a WP3 receipt.

 

4 minutes ago, BestB said:

i know my accountant still send people to Lao for non b.

Same a above.

[arithai12]

12 hours ago, JackThompson said:

Well, I suppose that may be the case - especially now.   Folks I know in Bangkok and Pattaya/Jomtien, serving Westerners, all report "slow, slow - even high season" - and have immigration primarily to thank for this.  Untold thousands of decent Thai jobs thrown into the sea for nothing but their greed and xenophobia. 

 

So, labor looks at the shrunken-market that remains, and may be deciding to apply some protectionism for Thai-owned restaurants.

 

Absolutely true - crossing that line must be avoided at all costs.

At the risk of derailing a little bit longer the thread, I don't quite agree with your arguments about immigration's responsability. Tourists numbers might be down or less than forecast all right, but one main cause of diminishing business for restaurants (and hotels for that matter) is simply the inflation in their numbers. Can't say really about Bangkok or Pattaya, but I know Chiang Mai and Phuket and if you walk in the usual main tourist areas there you will see a restaurant after the other. The menus are often basically replicas of each other.

In Chiang Mai around Nimman, for example, I think the number of restaurants has tripled in the last few years, many of them failing or struggling as far as I can tell.

 

The "Untold thousands of decent Thai jobs thrown into the sea", where would they be? Some restaurants I know quite well struggle to keep their staff, partly because the total income is low and so are their salaries, and partly because most of the waiters are unqualified young kids who change job as the wind changes direction, often with no notice at all. If they are not working in a restaurant, they are working somewhere else be assured, so the "untold numbers" are imaginary.

 

I wish all the best to the OP in his quest, hoping that he did his business plan thoroughly and has been researching and scouting long enough.

[jessebkk1]

It's amazing how a barely developing country with an economy less than a third of the state of California where over 50% of the population is surviving on less than $2 per day can be so arrogant with their visa regulations.

 

   If you are running a company who's yearly gross turnover is between 2 to 3 million Baht in Bangkok they'd try to frustrate/refuse your visa renewal, or even refuse issuing it in the first place. Tens of thousands of small companies have closed since 2015 because the CEO's non b visa was refused. While some of you might be quick to say that it was those who were just using non-b's for the purpose of staying in thailand, I know a pakistani who owned a gold shop in Bangkok with 19 thai employess, he had a thai wife, thai kids and grand kids, they all came with him to immigration and his visa renewal was denied because hadnt paid the monthly insurance for 1 Thai staff. So I think the visa refusals were racially motivated and xenophobic. At the immigration there I saw one of those young female officers throw the passport of an elder japanese applicant at his chest and the passport fell to floor. That was really sad to see.

 

  Even if you successfully get the non-b, a renewal guarantee is very difficult. Since three years, they will not renew your visa if you missed a monthly insurance payment for 1 thai staff. It's a really tricky requirement as a lot thais just cant seem to stay long on a job and could leave you with issues when renewing,

 

  They inspect the premises multiple times before and after the visa is issued, last year I had the immigration officer ask my staffs for their phone numbers and their parents phone numbers, in the end the guy ask my accountant to give him tea money for no reason - i did pay it.

 

 It's difficult/stressful to start a company in many parts of the world and get visas from it, however in most places after a couple of years, your company will get you a residence and citizenship which makes it all worth it. In thailand, you will be doing this forever with no guarantee of visas or anything else. So are forced to employ 4 thais and pay their salary and never miss a monthly payment for their insurance. that's about 55k Baht per month, add your rent and light bill and you're at about 70K per month, add account fees for visa renewals and you're looking atleast 1 Million Baht per year. If you're barely breaking even, you're stuck with this monthly bill for life with no possibility of escape. Let that sink in.

 

  I'll advice you get a "trustworthy" thai partner, get an ed visa and roll with the punches, that will save you atleast 700k per year. Goodluck!

Edited May 24, 2019 by jessebkk1

[sencelebi]

I can't tell you what to do  but I can tell you what I did.

First I opened a Co., Ltd. I appointed my self as a Director of the company Then I rented the place, did renovation,bought  all the necessary equipment, got all the required permits and bussiness was ready to go and actually opened the shop for bussiness.

Then I applied for work permit and got it with no problem at all.

You have to remember this ! You CANNOT get work permit if you don't get required permits for the bussiness from Tesaban and Department of Revenue . So bussiness has to be ready to go and actually you can start making money before you get your work permit. 

You CANNOT work in the bussiness physically before you get your work permit. You can be in the shop but CANNOT perform work. They might come to check it. If they catch you working without permit then you can be deported or get denied for work permit.

And to do all this I hired only an accounted not a lawyer.

Lawyers will always come up with things to milk you as much as they can.

If you are an American citizen like me (which helps a lot to throw US passport on the desk) then you can own 99% of the CO.,Ltd but you will still need 2 Thai citizens as a partner with 0.5% share each. You don't need to pay salary or percentage to those share holders and they will have no power in the company as a share holders as long as you are the Director of the company. 

You will get many replies to tell you what to do and most will be a joke or confusing.

This is my first hand experience.

Good luck

 

 

[flexomike]

15 hours ago, pineappleclub said:

Interesting... My lawyer explained the scrutiny coming from many foreigners using work visas simply to stay in Thailand and not actually operate a business.

 

But the current difficulty of it seems to fly directly in conflict with the announcements/plans to open Thailand up for more foreign investment.

where you from in MN, lived there all of my life, been retired here in Thailand for three years

[Wilson Smith]

16 hours ago, pineappleclub said:

I'm trying to start my restaurant here in Thailand and I've got quite a bit of experience running restaurants from back home in MN, but the biggest risk to everything seems to be whether or not I'll be given a WP3 which would allow me to to get my Non B and work permit. I've already invested and leased and remodeled a unit. I had assumed that as long as I was really doing business, I wouldn't have any issues, but for whatever reason this doesn't seem to be the case.

 

I've recently switch lawyers as everything my previous lawyer promised me fell through, and the new lawyer is a Thai lawyer/accountant and comes off good recommendations from some well-sized companies from friends.

 

However in my talks with her, even with the employee requirements, capital requirements, the scrutiny of the social funds and labor departments is making it very difficult to get a WP3 and work permit. It also seems that at any point things just might not get accepted.

 

I'm curious if anyone else has been having these issues and how they solved them if they did. All my ducks seem to be in order yet I'm quite worried that all my money already invested will be a total loss if I'm not even able to get setup and work

If getting a b visa cannot be figured out by you or with the help of lawyers, then this could be a sign to not go into business here as I can assure there will be much greater huddles ahead.

 

This is not a dis to OP but this place is a different playing field, you are the away team and refs are home town boys. This doesn't mean one cannot succeeded but if you cannot even get your shoes on then not sure what you will be able to do once you are on the field.     

[JackThompson]

4 hours ago, arithai12 said:

At the risk of derailing a little bit longer the thread, I don't quite agree with your arguments about immigration's responsability. Tourists numbers might be down or less than forecast all right, but one main cause of diminishing business for restaurants (and hotels for that matter) is simply the inflation in their numbers. Can't say really about Bangkok or Pattaya, but I know Chiang Mai and Phuket and if you walk in the usual main tourist areas there you will see a restaurant after the other. The menus are often basically replicas of each other.

In Chiang Mai around Nimman, for example, I think the number of restaurants has tripled in the last few years, many of them failing or struggling as far as I can tell.

I am not familiar with CM or Phuket - I haven't lived there or known Thais who worked in those areas.  In the Pattaya area, entire sois of businesses that served Western customers are boarded up.  Even in more popular areas, many open, experience scant business, then close their doors soon after.

 

4 hours ago, arithai12 said:

The "Untold thousands of decent Thai jobs thrown into the sea", where would they be?

Vietnam, Cambodia, The Philippines, and Latin America.  I met many with "Will never deal with Thai immigration again" stories in the PI, Latin America, and Cambodia (haven't stayed in Vietnam) - and this was before it got even worse.

 

4 hours ago, arithai12 said:

Some restaurants I know quite well struggle to keep their staff, partly because the total income is low and so are their salaries, and partly because most of the waiters are unqualified young kids who change job as the wind changes direction, often with no notice at all. If they are not working in a restaurant, they are working somewhere else be assured, so the "untold numbers" are imaginary.

I personally know many in my local area (Issan) who lost work due to immigration taking away customers from the businesses where they worked.  Many still work in Bangkok or elsewhere, but for a fraction of the wage paid by the Western-serving establishments where they worked prior.

 

4 hours ago, arithai12 said:

I wish all the best to the OP in his quest, hoping that he did his business plan thoroughly and has been researching and scouting long enough.

Agree on this.

[Caine]

4 hours ago, jessebkk1 said:

It's amazing how a barely developing country with an economy less than a third of the state of California where over 50% of the population is surviving on less than $2 per day can be so arrogant with their visa regulations.

 

   If you are running a company who's yearly gross turnover is between 2 to 3 million Baht in Bangkok they'd try to frustrate/refuse your visa renewal, or even refuse issuing it in the first place. Tens of thousands of small companies have closed since 2015 because the CEO's non b visa was refused. While some of you might be quick to say that it was those who were just using non-b's for the purpose of staying in thailand, I know a pakistani who owned a gold shop in Bangkok with 19 thai employess, he had a thai wife, thai kids and grand kids, they all came with him to immigration and his visa renewal was denied because hadnt paid the monthly insurance for 1 Thai staff. So I think the visa refusals were racially motivated and xenophobic. At the immigration there I saw one of those young female officers throw the passport of an elder japanese applicant at his chest and the passport fell to floor. That was really sad to see.

 

  Even if you successfully get the non-b, a renewal guarantee is very difficult. Since three years, they will not renew your visa if you missed a monthly insurance payment for 1 thai staff. It's a really tricky requirement as a lot thais just cant seem to stay long on a job and could leave you with issues when renewing,

 

  They inspect the premises multiple times before and after the visa is issued, last year I had the immigration officer ask my staffs for their phone numbers and their parents phone numbers, in the end the guy ask my accountant to give him tea money for no reason - i did pay it.

 

 It's difficult/stressful to start a company in many parts of the world and get visas from it, however in most places after a couple of years, your company will get you a residence and citizenship which makes it all worth it. In thailand, you will be doing this forever with no guarantee of visas or anything else. So are forced to employ 4 thais and pay their salary and never miss a monthly payment for their insurance. that's about 55k Baht per month, add your rent and light bill and you're at about 70K per month, add account fees for visa renewals and you're looking atleast 1 Million Baht per year. If you're barely breaking even, you're stuck with this monthly bill for life with no possibility of escape. Let that sink in.

 

  I'll advice you get a "trustworthy" thai partner, get an ed visa and roll with the punches, that will save you atleast 700k per year. Goodluck!

You’re forgetting that Thai people are superior beings, well in their minds at least. Thailand is a much superior nation than California due to the fact that practically no one has ever received an education 

[oobar]

If the OP is an American, he should find an attorney familiar with the American/Thailand amity agreement, which permits an American essentially to operate a business in Thailand under the same rules as a Thai citizen.