One observation

[TaoNow]

I have read most of the threads on the latest reports of the introduction of proposed health insurance requirements for expats in Thailand, since I am potentially affected.

 

One thing stands out to me about the hundreds of posters:  There is a pervasive paranoia among a large segment of expats who frequently post on this part of the TV forum.  

 

After having worked inside the Thai government (and having had to wear the khaki uniform during the administration of PM Thanin Kraivichien) I assure you there is no national conspiracy to target long-stay foreigners.  The reason I know this is that the Thai government does not operate in such a coordinated and systematic fashion. 

 

Thai government ministries operate largely independently of each other.  For example, Thai embassies and consulates are under the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, while Immigration is under the Royal Thai Police and, thus, the Ministry of Interior.

 

In sum, relax, and wait for the dust to settle.  There is no coordinated conspiracy to push you out of the country. 

 

It may be just a clumsy way of 'culling the herd.'

[scubascuba3]

Part of it is people haven't got enough to do so just keep scaremongering and the like

[BritTim]

I 100% agree with you that there is no coordinated effort to rid Thailand of long stay foreigners. However, I also believe that a significant proportion of the Thai elite feel (as in many countries) that their national identity is being eroded by the presence of so many foreigners bringing their own cultures and behaviour into the country. Where that xenophobic group has influence, I do see a trend towards trying to rid the country of those they consider most damaging to traditional Thai society.

[The Man Who Sold the World]

1 hour ago, TaoNow said:

There is no coordinated conspiracy to push you out of the country. 

You may be correct in your assessment, however, the fear that you perceive is based on the possibility of an individual becoming "collateral damage". The ever changing criteria and variations in the application and enforcement cause the fear.

 

There are many, many, many legit foreigners who have established families and abide by all the rules, yet have "suffered" from the "at the discretion of the Immigration Officer". Until Thailand begins enforcing their regulations evenly and without prejudice, the fear remains.   

 

 

Edited May 24, 2019 by The Man Who Sold the World
typo

[Pilotman]

OP, you may well be right, but as much damage can be done by incompetent  and uncoordinated government, as by a well organised and administered one that has a clearly negative objective towards expats.  You could argue that the very uncoordinated way Thai administration works that you speak of, is more dangerous to long serving expats, than if a government's aims and objectives and polices were clear and unambiguous and applied consistently across Departments.  Your post will do nothing to provide any reassurance to those who worry; they have plenty to worry about.  

[AlexRich]

There may not be a grand strategy, but for sure the present unelected incumbents are making life more difficult for people from other countries who have made their home here, many of whom have invested heavily in Thailand. Clearly they want less foreigners in Thailand ... whether written policy or not.

[Essecola]

There is no peace of mind. Just constant worry, fear, and every three months being in airports in places would never have gone otherwise. 

[Lacessit]

I've stopped worrying. Plan B is in place. My extension is in November. After July 1, we will either have or not have reports of extensions being refused on the grounds of not having health insurance.

I am half-hoping the decision-makers here will shoot themselves in the foot, because I would like to see how long-term living in Cambodia or the Philippines compares. If I come to Thailand on a tourist visa, there will be far less bureaucratic BS, not to mention the freed-up cash.

[Essecola]

Cambodia and the Philippines are awful compared to Thailand and Bangkok. Try getting seriously ill in Cambodia and see what medical services are there. Nothing reliable

[Lacessit]

8 minutes ago, Essecola said:

Cambodia and the Philippines are awful compared to Thailand and Bangkok. Try getting seriously ill in Cambodia and see what medical services are there. Nothing reliable

You may be right. As I can only tolerate Bangkok for 24 hours maximum,  maybe our perceptions of what is good/bad are different.

Some posters on TV claim Cambodia and the Philippines are good. Certainly the situation with visas and Immigration supports that.

[Traubert]

There is a pervasive paranoia among a large segment of expats who frequently post on this part of the TV forum.  

 

I'm not paranoid and all those people watching me know that.

[donnacha]

5 hours ago, TaoNow said:

In sum, relax, and wait for the dust to settle.  There is no coordinated conspiracy to push you out of the country. 

 

It may be just a clumsy way of 'culling the herd.'

 

That is the problem. Uncoordinated though it may be, there is a general consensus among the Thai elites that the country has made a mistake in becoming a destination for "poor" farangs. When they travel abroad, they see that other major destinations attract far richer tourists, and fondly imagine that they can swap out their existing kee nok guests for the five-star travelers they see in Switzerland or New York.

In Thailand, wealth is, in itself, a moral good. They do not see that 40 million "poor" tourists adds up to a lot of money (10% of their GDP), they do not see that their kee nok expats were there to prop up the economy and support entire families back in leaner times. Arguably, the reliable font of farang money pumped into the poorest regions of Thailand for decades has propped up the system and allowed the elites to avoid any real pressure to provide services to the poor.

Like most Thais, the elites dream of sudden windfalls that require no real effort or investment. As their economy falters, they look to apportion blame to someone else. Their unsatisfactory farangs have let them down. They feel no gratitude, they have no sense that much of Thailand's current wealth was built upon decades of Westerners loyally returning every year and spunking away their valuable foreign currency.

 

Yes, they will cull the herd. They will continue to replace Western tourism with Chinese and, when that falters, Indian. They will continue to make it more complicated and expensive for expats to stay here, all while prices rise and the air quality deteriorates. So, in their uncoordinated way, from different directions, they will all keep hitting the golden goose with hammers.

And, one morning, after the Chinese property bubble crashes, and the despised farangs have mostly moved on to Vietnam, The Philippines, Malaysia and, even, Indonesia, the Thais will wonder why there is so much less money around, and why they have to work so very hard to keep up with their neighbors.

[Nowisee]

Charging more while providing more is equilibrium.  Here it's charge more, then keep charging more.    

This is gluttony.

 
It is or may be benefitting banks and insurance companies, but I doubt it is helping those at the bottom.  

They can spin it any way they want and they will to get what they want.  

This is deception.

 

Charging (targeting) only certain visa holders without study, fact and evidence doesn't seem reasonable, fair or even smart.   I find it hard to believe the hospitals are losing millions of baht because of O-A visa holders.  

The majority of which live here fine on their pensions, investments and keep money here if it benefits them and either pay as they go or have insurance of some kind.  

 

There's a spider in the house, burn down the house. 

 

My thinking is that it's going to adversely (and quite unnecessarily) affect a lot more people than we might think.  

 

 

 

 

   

Edited May 25, 2019 by Nowisee

[Pilotman]

12 hours ago, Lacessit said:

You may be right. As I can only tolerate Bangkok for 24 hours maximum,  maybe our perceptions of what is good/bad are different.

Some posters on TV claim Cambodia and the Philippines are good. Certainly the situation with visas and Immigration supports that.

In the big picture scheme of things, even in Thailand, the issues with visas/extensions is not a very big deal.  So long as you can meet the financial requirements, then dealing with Immigration is a bit of a hassle,  but not a deal breaker as to were to live.  Not being able to meet the Thai financial requirements, means that an expat may have issues wherever they go outside their own country in financing a good life style and catering for emergencies.  Considering that all other countries east of Thailand, bar Hong Kong and Taiwan, are technologically, infrastructure wise and services wise, quite a bit inferior to Thailand, jumping ship here simply because of the visa regulations is a big big risk.  

[BritTim]

41 minutes ago, Pilotman said:

Considering that all other countries east of Thailand, bar Hong Kong and Taiwan, are technologically, infrastructure wise and services wise, quite a bit inferior to Thailand...

Well, in 1990, that might have been true (though, even then, one would need to add Singapore). Today, countries like South Korea and Mainland China have clearly outstripped Thailand. Countries like Malaysia and Vietnam (even parts of Indonesia) are competitive. Yes, Thailand still has more facilities than countries like Laos, Cambodia and Myanmar, but that is not much of a level to aspire to. The fact is that, while the standard of living of Thais has generally improved greatly (an important achievement) the country has gone backwards as far as becoming an advanced economy is concerned.

[Pilotman]

1 minute ago, BritTim said:

Well, in 1990, that might have been true (though, even then, one would need to add Singapore). Today, countries like South Korea and Mainland China have clearly outstripped Thailand. Countries like Malaysia and Vietnam (even parts of Indonesia) are competitive. Yes, Thailand still has more facilities than countries like Laos, Cambodia and Myanmar, but that is not much of a level to aspire to. The fact is that, while the standard of living of Thais has generally improved greatly (an important achievement) the country has gone backwards as far as becoming an advanced economy is concerned.

yes, I agree with that. 

 

Singapore is south,  hence I didn't include it.  

[zyphodb]

Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you.......

[Emdog]

Paranoia is an irrational suspicion or mistrust of others.  Here in Thailand it is rational, hence not paranoid

[Percy P]

17 hours ago, BritTim said:

I 100% agree with you that there is no coordinated effort to rid Thailand of long stay foreigners. However, I also believe that a significant proportion of the Thai elite feel (as in many countries) that their national identity is being eroded by the presence of so many foreigners bringing their own cultures and behaviour into the country. Where that xenophobic group has influence, I do see a trend towards trying to rid the country of those they consider most damaging to traditional Thai society.

That's acceptable.

[natway09]

Sweden is one country that insists on medical cover even for a 3 month visa

Settle down, it is for the good of the majority

[Percy P]

17 hours ago, BritTim said:

I 100% agree with you that there is no coordinated effort to rid Thailand of long stay foreigners. However, I also believe that a significant proportion of the Thai elite feel (as in many countries) that their national identity is being eroded by the presence of so many foreigners bringing their own cultures and behaviour into the country. Where that xenophobic group has influence, I do see a trend towards trying to rid the country of those they consider most damaging to traditional Thai society.

That's acceptable.

[malibukid]

16 hours ago, Essecola said:

Cambodia and the Philippines are awful compared to Thailand and Bangkok. Try getting seriously ill in Cambodia and see what medical services are there. Nothing reliable

Malaysia has first class medical care.  check out Prince Hospital in KL

[malibukid]

you have not been to NYC in the winter.  no thank you

[Benmart]

18 hours ago, scubascuba3 said:

Part of it is people haven't got enough to do so just keep scaremongering and the like

I agree. The fuel may anxiety, resentment, general unhappiness and other "substances". 

[malibukid]

12 hours ago, donnacha said:

 

That is the problem. Uncoordinated though it may be, there is a general consensus among the Thai elites that the country has made a mistake in becoming a destination for "poor" farangs. When they travel abroad, they see that other major destinations attract far richer tourists, and fondly imagine that they can swap out their existing kee nok guests for the five-star travelers they see in Switzerland or New York.

In Thailand, wealth is, in itself, a moral good. They do not see that 40 million "poor" tourists adds up to a lot of money (10% of their GDP), they do not see that their kee nok expats were there to prop up the economy and support entire families back in leaner times. Arguably, the reliable font of farang money pumped into the poorest regions of Thailand for decades has propped up the system and allowed the elites to avoid any real pressure to provide services to the poor.

Like most Thais, the elites dream of sudden windfalls that require no real effort or investment. As their economy falters, they look to apportion blame to someone else. Their unsatisfactory farangs have let them down. They feel no gratitude, they have no sense that much of Thailand's current wealth was built upon decades of Westerners loyally returning every year and spunking away their valuable foreign currency.

 

Yes, they will cull the herd. They will continue to replace Western tourism with Chinese and, when that falters, Indian. They will continue to make it more complicated and expensive for expats to stay here, all while prices rise and the air quality deteriorates. So, in their uncoordinated way, from different directions, they will all keep hitting the golden goose with hammers.

And, one morning, after the Chinese property bubble crashes, and the despised farangs have mostly moved on to Vietnam, The Philippines, Malaysia and, even, Indonesia, the Thais will wonder why there is so much less money around, and why they have to work so very hard to keep up with their neighbors.

might add that the Thai's do not see large sum of money i put in bank or the fact that i and others do rescue work for animals that they don't  give a #$%^ about.  

[dotpoom]

19 hours ago, TaoNow said:

There is a pervasive paranoia among a large segment of expats who frequently post on this part of the TV forum

Thank you for your post.

  I have made more than a few comments on this subject myself.

  It has always appeared to me that the majority of (if not all) the posters with the attitude you refer to are simply people "jumping on a band wagon"....."getting in on the act"...to be one of the "populists"...or whatever (maybe it makes them feel good that the more they knock everything Thai...the more "likes" they will get ..who knows?

  One of the most popular comments is (like you say) "They are making it so hard for us to renew our extention of stay here they are trying to drive us out for sure"....to which I reply..."It's not any harder for me...I did exactly the same thing this year as I have been doing for the last 18 years" (money seasoned in the bank).

   I will deal with the Insurance thing if and when I am ever affected by it.

  PS ..it makes absolute sense anyway. Why should the mostly poor country of Thailand (it's Taxpayers) have to fork out 1 Baht to pay for the medical bills of some Farangs in their country (most of whom have or had more money than the average Thai person would see in a lifetime.

   

[Snow Leopard]

Maybe along with all the other ministries, it might be good to have a ministry of Correct Information and Translation. That way all the ministries that have policies that do have an impact on foreigners can channel their communications through this branch.  

[marcusarelus]

1 hour ago, malibukid said:

Malaysia has first class medical care.  check out Prince Hospital in KL

Check out the hospital price and the price of the MM2H visa.  I doubt many Thai expats have even a third of the money necessary.

[ubonjoe]

A inflammatory off topic post has been removed. A repeat of it it will result in a formal warning.

[Traubert]

14 hours ago, donnacha said:

And, one morning, after the Chinese property bubble crashes,

You were doing so well, too.

 

There isn't a Chinese property bubble. The Government makes sure of that because it's the one and only thing that might depose them.

 

No sub prime mortgages in China and a fair amount of properties are bought for cash.