One observation

[connda]

I love the logic so many have including Thai elites and the "I'm richer than you" crowd of foreign expats who enjoy gloating.  Many of us are sitting on 1 M THB in a Thai bank and we inject close to 1 M THB of new money into the Thai economy yearly from income sources originating outside of Thailand, i.e., USD, GBP, EUR (as opposed to recycling THB within the country) -- and because we economized and seek a better standard of living than we'd have in our own over-priced home countries -- we're labelled "Cheap Charlies" and 'Undesirables' because we aren't multi-millionaires <the demographic that IS 'desirable' we are told>. 
It moronic and short-sighted by people who probably have never taken an Economics class.  It's exactly people like me and others (we so-called Cheap Charlies) who are injecting literally billions of THB into the Thai GDP yearly - and we're routinely disparaged.
If institutionalized xenophobia continues to make living here a major pain in the ass and expat will start leaving.  "Cheap Charlies" or not, they take their foreign derived income with them and when enough leave it will impact the Thai economy.  And most of the so-called Cheap Charlies earn multiples more than the vast majority of middle class Thais.  The moniker Cheap Charlie is really a relative comparison to other foreigners who think they are God's gift to the world.    
Like others have stated, I have a Plan B.  Like any place, Thailand has its pros and cons, but when the cons outweigh the pros, it's time to pull up the stakes and move on.  This is "A" place to live; it is not "THE" place to live.  I can take it or leave it. 

[AlexRich]

The best approach to Thailand, in my view, is to enter and exit as a tourist and move around SE Asia in the gaps. You can only do this if you are single with no ties, but it means you are not having to jump through too many hoops and can exit easily should the merde hit the fan. If you are tied to Thailand due to family then it’s important to have a contingency plan to exit if the rules change to your disadvantage. I would never go “all in” in Thailand, or any other country that doesn’t give me the same rights as a citizen.

[Krataiboy]

1 hour ago, dotpoom said:

Thank you for your post.

  I have made more than a few comments on this subject myself.

  It has always appeared to me that the majority of (if not all) the posters with the attitude you refer to are simply people "jumping on a band wagon"....."getting in on the act"...to be one of the "populists"...or whatever (maybe it makes them feel good that the more they knock everything Thai...the more "likes" they will get ..who knows?

  One of the most popular comments is (like you say) "They are making it so hard for us to renew our extention of stay here they are trying to drive us out for sure"....to which I reply..."It's not any harder for me...I did exactly the same thing this year as I have been doing for the last 18 years" (money seasoned in the bank).

   I will deal with the Insurance thing if and when I am ever affected by it.

  PS ..it makes absolute sense anyway. Why should the mostly poor country of Thailand (it's Taxpayers) have to fork out 1 Baht to pay for the medical bills of some Farangs in their country (most of whom have or had more money than the average Thai person would see in a lifetime.

   

Agree wholeheartedly with your PS. However, I can't understand that simply forcing insurance on a relatively small number of new O-A applicants will make much difference to the alleged large-scale bilking of the system.

[Thingamabob]

The moaners and whingers should either shut up or get out.

[MartinKal]

You say it's nothing to worry about, then you say it's a cull.

 

The govt has rather made a dog's dinner of the changes to the immigration rules. The result has been those able to leave start to think about doing so. This means in general the younger ex pats, those in work, more likely Bangkok based.

 

This element has less time to spend on adapting to administrative change and is more likely to reject uncertain situations.

 

Next, the government decides to reduce the possible risks of an ageing expat community  who cannot count on the public sector for Healthcare. This will tend to hit the retirement destinations and those in more difficult financial circumstances.

 

There is also amendments to the tourist visa rules in recognition of the growing importance of Chinese and Indian visitors.

 

And I would include in this list, the threats to airbnb, the threats to watering holes and massage shops, and the raised voices over the penetration of Grab.

 

The writer of the piece has not had recent experience in the Thai government, probably not since the military takeover in 2014. Since that time, the prime minister has set about introducing a long-term strategy for the management of the country. The above considerations look to me like strands that are starting to come together in a strategic vision for Thailand's expat community. What could this be?

 

It looks to me simply like they are trying to maximise the take by going up market. I seen this done in other countries, in fact it is quite a common approach that governments take to their tourist industry, and understandably so.

 

What is missing in countries that are run in a top-down fashion is a proper consultation with the people involved. This consultation process is a good idea for two reasons. One, it avoids making mistakes or at least reduces the risk and provides opportunities to shift the blame if things do go wrong. And two, it gets the advance backing of the people who will be affected. Of course it can also slow everything down and risks the government's new policies being aborted.

 

What we are missing is a voice from the expat community and a channel for communicating it to the government. Who represents expats in Thailand? Who, at a national level, represents the foreigner? This question becomes more powerful if you consider that the government is starting, in a way, to tax people who do not have a vote.

Edited May 25, 2019 by MartinKal
Clarity

[NoshowJones]

12 minutes ago, Thingamabob said:

The moaners and whingers should either shut up or get out.

Is this another member of the "I'm richer than you" brigade?

[Thaidream]

24 minutes ago, Thingamabob said:

The moaners and whingers should either shut up or get out.

I am home and I have no intention of keeping quiet.  It's called freedom of expression.

[JackThompson]

2 hours ago, dotpoom said:

...

  PS ..it makes absolute sense anyway. Why should the mostly poor country of Thailand (it's Taxpayers) have to fork out 1 Baht to pay for the medical bills of some Farangs in their country (most of whom have or had more money than the average Thai person would see in a lifetime.

Because the net-benefit of our spending here far outstrips any loses by far.

 

But I would not mind some sort of "emergency only" coverage requirement For ALL foreigners - just not this obviously contrived "Let sell insurance including the profitable outpatient coverage,"  - and only to "retired" visitors - which doesn't address the claimed problem in a logical or comprehensive way.

[marcusarelus]

24 minutes ago, possum1931 said:

Is this another member of the "I'm richer than you" brigade?

On ThaiVisa that's not saying much is it?

[emptypockets]

20 hours ago, Lacessit said:

You may be right. As I can only tolerate Bangkok for 24 hours maximum,  maybe our perceptions of what is good/bad are different.

Some posters on TV claim Cambodia and the Philippines are good. Certainly the situation with visas and Immigration supports that.

Not sim not sure about that. While on face value the actual visa may be easier in the the  Phillipines, the recent draconian laws introduced doesn't make at all comfortable. Say the wrong thing to the wrong person and its either jail or deportation.

Posters often only paint the rosy side of things and forget about the thorns.

I guess that's human nature to try and convince themselves and others that they have made the right move ( mostly themselves).

[Thaidream]

22 hours ago, TaoNow said:

have read most of the threads on the latest reports of the introduction of proposed health insurance requirements for expats in Thailand, since I am potentially affected.

 

One thing stands out to me about the hundreds of posters:  There is a pervasive paranoia among a large segment of expats who frequently post on this part of the TV forum.  

 

After having worked inside the Thai government (and having had to wear the khaki uniform during the administration of PM Thanin Kraivichien) I assure you there is no national conspiracy to target long-stay foreigners.  The reason I know this is that the Thai government does not operate in such a coordinated and systematic fashion. 

 

Thai government ministries operate largely independently of each other.  For example, Thai embassies and consulates are under the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, while Immigration is under the Royal Thai Police and, thus, the Ministry of Interior.

 

In sum, relax, and wait for the dust to settle.  There is no coordinated conspiracy to push you out of the country. 

 

It may be just a clumsy way of 'culling the herd.'

Thank you for providing your perspective on how you view us as expats and foreigners in Thailand.

 

Now a few of my own observations.  You served in the Thanin Government which was from 76-77.  Tourism at that time was in it's infancy and mass tourism did not start until Prime Minister Prem came to power in 1978 and started -Visit Thailand Year- and also liberalizing the Visa applications and increasing the numbers of days people could remain in Thailand.

 

Through the years until the current Government - Thailand has constantly liberalized its entry and Visa requirements- generally opening the country to not only mass tourism but long stay possibilities. At present there are  almost 35 million tourists and hundreds of thousands of long stay  expats who make Thailand their home.  Thailand has benefited enormously money wise and expertise wise. 

When I first came to Thailand in 1971 as a US Citizen- I exited the plane after almost a 36 hour trip along with about 6-7 other people. Don Muang had no air conditioning and we had to wake up the Immigration officer. Stamped in for 15 days max and an extension required a bond in a bank.  Thailand was not on the tourist map.

 

Up until 2014- one never heard of  foreigners stopped at airports and denied entry; Thai Embassies putting red stamps on passports indicating too much time in the country or really indicating there were many issues  to staying in Thailand.  Even overstays were  handled in the usual Thai mai pen rai  attitude.

 

Something changed- and it's not paranoia.  The current Government appears to have a policy of as you say- "culling the herd"-  In the last 5 years-Western tourism has declined replaced by Chinese and Indians.  Part of this could be the decline in Western currencies; rising prices in Thailand and the economic boom in China. However, I feel it runs deeper and it has become a control issue.  There are certain factions within the elite that are wary of long stayers and the numbers that want to make Thailand their home

 

- Thailand has definitely  tightened it's Immigration policy- there is no longer a Mai pen rai  attitude.  Overstays get fined; deported and banned and many visitors get refused entry. No problem- every country has a right to protect their borders.

Each year- there are more and more changes affecting foreigners- income requirements; paperwork requirements; blaming foreigners for supposed loses in government hospitals.

 

Do I think that there is a coordinated effort against foreigners. I do not. Do I think certain ultraconservative members of the Thai elite want to 'cull the herd'.  Absolutely.

[Lacessit]

3 minutes ago, emptypockets said:

Not sim not sure about that. While on face value the actual visa may be easier in the the  Phillipines, the recent draconian laws introduced doesn't make at all comfortable. Say the wrong thing to the wrong person and its either jail or deportation.

Posters often only paint the rosy side of things and forget about the thorns.

I guess that's human nature to try and convince themselves and others that they have made the right move ( mostly themselves).

I won't know until I try it there, which may not happen if the most recent reports on health insurance requirements are accurate.

It's not rocket science. Turn up neatly dressed, and be polite. Turn up looking like something the cat dragged in, with a boorish attitude to boot, and one will have problems anywhere between immigration and a street bar.

[Jingthing]

What a weird OP. They're not out to get us. But it's a cull. Come back to us when you've made up your mind. What difference does it make if it's "coordinated" or not if the impact is the same!?!

 

My description of what is happening is that we're being jerked around and naturally many will be jerked on outta here. Yeah -- a cull. 

[robertson468]

7 hours ago, BritTim said:

Well, in 1990, that might have been true (though, even then, one would need to add Singapore). Today, countries like South Korea and Mainland China have clearly outstripped Thailand. Countries like Malaysia and Vietnam (even parts of Indonesia) are competitive. Yes, Thailand still has more facilities than countries like Laos, Cambodia and Myanmar, but that is not much of a level to aspire to. The fact is that, while the standard of living of Thais has generally improved greatly (an important achievement) the country has gone backwards as far as becoming an advanced economy is concerned.

I have just returned from a holiday in China and I must admit I was very impressed at how advanced the Cities are (and I emphsize CITIES) compared to Thailand.  Many electric vehicles, cashless purchases, tourist venues with English translation, to name but a few.  Must admit I missed Google apps, but I am sure they will have a "look alike" very soon.

[Fairynuff]

5 hours ago, Pilotman said:

In the big picture scheme of things, even in Thailand, the issues with visas/extensions is not a very big deal.  So long as you can meet the financial requirements, then dealing with Immigration is a bit of a hassle,  but not a deal breaker as to were to live.  Not being able to meet the Thai financial requirements, means that an expat may have issues wherever they go outside their own country in financing a good life style and catering for emergencies.  Considering that all other countries east of Thailand, bar Hong Kong and Taiwan, are technologically, infrastructure wise and services wise, quite a bit inferior to Thailand, jumping ship here simply because of the visa regulations is a big big risk.  

It’s not the not being able to meet the requirements, it’s the never really knowing what the requirements are because every IO has different requirements. All we really want is stability and consistency 

[Fairynuff]

4 hours ago, malibukid said:

might add that the Thai's do not see large sum of money i put in bank or the fact that i and others do rescue work for animals that they don't  give a #$%^ about.  

They don’t see what you do and if they did they’d report you for working illegally 

[Fairynuff]

4 hours ago, dotpoom said:

the mostly poor country of Thailand (it's Taxpayers) 

I must live in a different Thailand because the one I live in is not mostly poor. Most of the poor in Thailand will not pay tax. I however have paid an awful lot of tax here

[hansnl]

22 hours ago, BritTim said:

I 100% agree with you that there is no coordinated effort to rid Thailand of long stay foreigners. However, I also believe that a significant proportion of the Thai elite feel (as in many countries) that their national identity is being eroded by the presence of so many foreigners bringing their own cultures and behaviour into the country. Where that xenophobic group has influence, I do see a trend towards trying to rid the country of those they consider most damaging to traditional Thai society.

Good example is China where permissions to stay in the country, even for those married to a Chinese and having children, are refused, and they get to hear to go back to their own country.

 

[JackThompson]

1 hour ago, emptypockets said:

Not sim not sure about that. While on face value the actual visa may be easier in the the  Phillipines, the recent draconian laws introduced doesn't make at all comfortable. Say the wrong thing to the wrong person and its either jail or deportation.

Posters often only paint the rosy side of things and forget about the thorns.

I guess that's human nature to try and convince themselves and others that they have made the right move ( mostly themselves).

The new PI rules are not really that draconian - just don't make a total arse of oneself to locals or officials, and you'll be fine.  We've all seen these types - no country would want them around.  Doing the same to locals in Thailand could result (and has, in some published cases) in hospitalization - while at the same time, if staying mellow, one would almost never have a problem with the locals here.  In general, locals in both countries are friendly, with the PI ones a bit more consistently so.

 

By contrast, the PI officials I dealt with were always friendly, professional, and polite.  In Thailand, it is hit-and-miss - some literally oozing hatred at you for no conceivable reason, but also some good-humored and friendly ones at most Issan border crossings (not Poipet, which is run by Bangkok IOs).

[JackThompson]

9 minutes ago, hansnl said:

Good example is China where permissions to stay in the country, even for those married to a Chinese and having children, are refused, and they get to hear to go back to their own country.

All foreigners are a threat to their system.  They heavily-censor the web, to try to maintain an illusory image of the world in the minds of their citizens - but how to control the mouths of foreigners, who might relate what the outside-world is really like?

 

Some say they think Thailand has a similar issue with us - but if that were their goal, the place to start would be blocking Facebook and similar who influence millions of Thais daily - not removing Farangs, who are primarily here because they love Thailand.

[Pedrogaz]

It is difficult to say whether there is no cause for concern. I am 65 with health issues (diabetes, hypertension, hypercholesterolemia) and insurance for me is a waste of money. I have the funds to self insure...and could easily take a 2 or 3 million hit from a hospital stay in my stride...so I have no interest in purchasing overpriced insurance to increase the profits of greedy insurers. I will probably leave if I am forced to buy insurance, but will stay if they let me keep and additional 440 K in the bank to cover, over and above the 800k for retirement extension. 

 

But I have been in Thailand nearly 12 years....on the whole I have been very happy...but the trend in Thailand is to make it tougher for people....

Take the TM30 forms...I arrive at Suvarnabhumi and give my information to immigration including my address....then next day I am supposed to get up early and drive 90 minutes the local immigration and file a TM30. It is ridiculous...not only that if my landlord doesn't file on my behalf I am liable to pay the fine or they won't extend my visa. It is pointless inconvenience. 

Like you I have spent my adult life as an expat, I have never encountered such pointless bureaucracy in my life. 

Yes you are right to observe that Thal governments do not operate in an organised way. Their approach instead of 'ready, aim, fire" is "fire, ready, aim" with 'solutions' that don't fit the diagnosis, because they never make a diagnosis in the first place. 

If the reason that they want TM30s files is that criminals are getting into Thailand, this action will not solve that problem. Tightening up on visa documentation will....perhaps asking all males under the age of 60 for police reports (which is already the regulation but is not enforced).

 

In any event, this solution to the 300 million baht unpaid hospital bills will cost the expats tons of money.....and it is only saving $10 million....$10 stinking million dollars...its peanuts....and I have never read on TV of patients with retirement extension as the ones not paying their bills.....it is tourists that get injured doing dangerous things who have no insurance....ie young adventurers not slow moving oldies. And anyway 300 million baht...the new 100 baht per tourist will cover the deficit 10 fold.

 

I am not a happy camper...I love Thailand and planned to stay here for r=the rest of my life and since I spend freely, to support the economy, not to mention employing several domestic staff....but I have had enough of changes to immigration rules as I can stand....no other. country changes its rules every month. 

 

Anyway I don't need this s&*t, I'll set off for somewhere more welcoming to retirees and Thailand will lose another free spending, family supporting farang. I think I have up to next spring to decide so I'll spend the next few months scoping out alternatives, including moving back home and buying a home in a sunny clime.

[Ulic]

I read this and shake my head. I don't view the insurance requirement as a means to push long stay expats out at all. I view it as a way to squeeze vast sums of cash out of expats while providing little or to no insurance. The profits will be astronomical. Just look at the proposal to charge tourists a 100 baht insurance fee to cover the 300 million hospitals claim to be stuck with when tourists don't pay their bills. According to the government, it will bring in 3.6 billion baht. I am fine with it and if I were a tourist and was hurt/injured I would just point to the fee and let the hospital know the Thai government will be covering the cost with my 100 baht insurance fee charge. Probably the way the Thai government should be doing it. No worries about scooter renters having accidents without a license etc... you are covered. The same goes for bus/van accidents, you are covered. Note, this is accident insurance, not health care coverage. 

[Thingamabob]

Quite simply, if you don't feel comfortable in the country you are staying in, wherever it is, try living somewhere else.  

[Thingamabob]

16 hours ago, possum1931 said:

Is this another member of the "I'm richer than you" brigade?

I suppose I am. Thank you for your comment.

[Pattaya46]

15 hours ago, Fairynuff said:

It’s not the not being able to meet the requirements, it’s the never really knowing what the requirements are because every IO has different requirements.

Where is that? Can't stop to read that (on this forum only!) but have no idea where it's supposed to happen. I depend of Jomtien Immigration and never heard of different IOs asking different documents ?? Maybe some isolated case in some small Immigration offices  but a few exceptions don't make the general rule.

[Pilotman]

8 minutes ago, Pattaya46 said:

Where is that? Can't stop to read that (on this forum only!) but have no idea where it's supposed to happen. I depend of Jomtien Immigration and never heard of different IOs asking different documents ?? Maybe some isolated case in some small Immigration offices  but a few exceptions don't make the general rule.

Jomtien seems to be the best of the bunch.  I never have a problem there with inconsistent IOs. 

[jacko45k]

20 hours ago, malibukid said:

you have not been to NYC in the winter.  no thank you

I did a few in Upstate NY. No thank you very much!

[gerry1953]

I have been on retirement extensions (visas) for the last 9 years but for mental health reasons I return to Canada (and sanity) for just over 6 months most years.  I am not happy being forced to keep B800K+ in my Thai bank for 5 months even though I can easily afford it.

From what I read about the insurance prices the cost versus the maximum payout was an extremely poor investment.  The pre existing condition clauses were laughable and even though they say it won't affect us retirees, I suspect they are testing the waters - they love a good cash cow and IMO is sure to expand!  Many years ago I got Thai licenses which was susposed to get me into venues at Thai prices?  Now I have to pay 5 times the Thai rate at Parks, some private events, plus beaches - things change and it is seldom in our interests.  They love moving the goal posts!!!!

My solution is next time around will be to drop my retirement status and arrive with a tourist 3 month visa.

After 2 or 3 months in my Thai city with my wife and family I will spend a few weeks in Vietnam get a new 3 month visa then leave Thailand after 60 days (so I don't have to pay the extra 1900 baht to extend the visa to 90 days.  Sorry a 90 day tourist visa should be good for 90 days.

I won't have to keep the 800K in Thai banks with dismal returns or do 90 day reporting, renewals or bother with rentry stamps.

I feel sorry for the guys who are trapped due to economics and the high Baht rates.

[wobalt]

Good example is China where permissions to stay in the country, even for those married to a Chinese and having children, are refused, and they get to hear to go back to their own country.
 

Never had any issues in China, in fact got a permanent residence permit soon after arrival.


Sent from my iPad using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[Fairynuff]

6 hours ago, Pattaya46 said:

Where is that? Can't stop to read that (on this forum only!) but have no idea where it's supposed to happen. I depend of Jomtien Immigration and never heard of different IOs asking different documents ?? Maybe some isolated case in some small Immigration offices  but a few exceptions don't make the general rule.

Don’t you read this forum?!