Alzheimer's patient forced out of Thailand: Daughter tells Thaivisa they love Thailand but immigration rule changes mean mum must go

[milesinnz]

5 hours ago, aussienam said:

The reality is IMO that the Thai establishment no longer wish for low end expat spenders, preferring for upper middle and high end income earning expats.  Health insurance is obviously an issue as is other issues that could burden the Thai economy - but I feel in the whole scheme of things that this would only account for a small percentage.  I get that having people here financially self sufficient is a good idea, but their requirements I feel are too rigid and with the new laws it makes those who have been doing the right thing all along being punished.  Of course there are those who have caused problems and hence the crackdown and changes.  But I feel that there may be a bigger strategy here to change the face of those who come here.  There is always the Philippines, Cambodia, Vietnam and probably a few other places as well that in time will cater better for expats and those needing care.   Sad for the lady though.  A bit of flexibility in circumstances like this would be good IMO.  

Makes me think that all the Thais in overseas countries, where perhaps their partner has a low income, or they send money back to Thailand should also be kicked out of these Western countries and back to the rice farm.. also maybe the Thai authorities do not read the news... the number of very well off Western people is getting less and less.. and if they think the Chinese are great people to have in Thailand, then they need to have a good look at what the Chinese are doing to and in Cambodia...

[baansgr]

20 minutes ago, Alan Michael said:

Many farang for many years have looked after and have financially supported their Thai wives and girlfriends, their children that were abandoned by their Thai fathers and the wife or girlfriend's aging parents.

Will the oh! so compassionate Thai government look after these Thai people if us farang are no longer allowed to stay in Thailand due to changed and unnecessary financial restrictions?

Of course they wont, the girls are already learning Mandarin and Hindu

[baansgr]

12 minutes ago, Father Fintan Stack said:

Thailand has allowed mass immigration when it suited them. See the influx of millions of Chinese (who now practically govern the country and make the laws) over the last 120 years as evidence. 

 

Westerners have never been immigrants hence the 'Non-Immigrant' visa type.

 

The problem for expats now is obtaining health insurance over a certain age is difficult and for some, impossible.

 

The other issue is that all these new rules, if you understand Thailand and how things work, are designed to generate money for a certain group of Thai people at the expense of the most vulnerable group of expats; the elderly, ill, weak and less financially better off.

 

Thais are nak leng; strongmen that rely on bullying and intimidation. This is prevalent in the Police, the Army and the current leadership. It suits them to pick on the weakest group, as Thai culture illustrates throughout history. 

 

Hopefully very soon there will be reciprocal laws in the UK that prevent Thais from owning property,  receiving education, obtaining long term visas, owning businesses etc. 

 

We've been remiss for some time in the West but now times they are a changin'.

The UK Government are already discussing property ownership for foreigners, Thailand was especially mentioned. It may be sooner than you think

[JMSIII]

The "Rules are the Rules" type of people are all hardcore about the "letter of the law"....that is until it has an effect on them!

 

Typical government response to people who actually break the law, is to come up with stricter laws, that will usually only hurt the law abiding people.  The ones who willingly break the law, don't give a damn what the laws are because, they aren't going to follow them anyway!

[TonyR101]

The headlines to this story are grossly misleading, and unfair to Thai Immigration. 

The many options to resolve the problem are quoted by other above. Most farungs I speak to in Chiang Mai have been firm supporters of the Thai junta ousting Thailand's democracy, yet openly critical of Thailand's lack of social justice and strict rules. When an election does come around, and any Junta opposition gets steam rollered, there is no support from the ex-pat community, only whinges about bars being shut. Thailand is full of elderly people with health problems live on support of their family on family incomes less $500/month. Why should the country suddenly become concerned about farung families eeking out a living on $50,000/month?

I've had a retirement visa for the past 15 years and seen many changes to the immigration requirements, and I've always had fair and polite treatment from Chiang Mai Immigration staff. Immigration here can be frustrating and bureaucratic but not unjust.

[Thaidream]

This is a sad commentary= It appears to me that they have been using the 800K but now they have to season the money for 3 months after the extension and keep 400K in the bank permanently.

 

They most likely had been paying the hospice care out of that money so it could definitely  become a financial issue as they would still need another 86,000 Baht per month for the hospice plus keeping the funds in the bank.

 

An agent in the area could most likely have sorted the whole issue.

 

The issue could have been solved by Immigration using the clause in the Immigration Act which indicates a senior official can waive requirements  when necessary.  Certainly a medical issue like this should  qualify for such an exception.

[GalaxyMan]

4 hours ago, unamazedloso said:

Not to worry. To even things up after reading this i will no longer be supporting 4 elderly people and there grand children in my street. Government steals their money, doesn't care well then neither do i. Hard to do but care has to work both ways.

I just love the 'two wrongs makes a right' mentality. Pathetic. Karma is karma. If you let how others behave determine your 'principles', then you really don't have any, do you? Very sad for the lady's family, as she is obviously and thankfully oblivious to her external reality.

[Odisan]

Very sad. I get that there are  rules, but all it does is highlight how impersonal and harsh they actually are. One mistake, whoever's at fault, and that's it - off you go. ????

 

[Isaanbiker]

2 hours ago, Crash999 said:

Why didn’t the hospital apply for a medical extension?

Some Immigration officers don't care, while others are nice in such a situation.

 

  Not every Immigration is going by the rules'laws, our Immigration officers are pretty relaxed, and they would have accepted photos of him being hospitalized.

 

     But some of them don't give a flying kangaroo. If an office wants to see a foreigner in an ambulance, as happened in the past, there must be something wrong with them. ( And their brains, too!)

 

  There'll never be something like a green card for people who work, pay taxes, and live a life contributing a lot to Thai society. 

 

   

 

  

[RandolphGB]

Why should the rules be changed for one family? Where does it stop? Who gets concessions to the rules?

 

If they allow one person to stay, the next lawyer will use it as historical precedent and then the person after that. Soon the law becomes so blurred it's meaningless. 

[Ridler]

The people working at immigration are only following the rules. If every single farang left and never came back they would not be bothered as they have a job and work would be easier. 

It is the ones higher up who make the rules and don’t really know why they are making the rules, they just sound good. 

One person doesn’t have health insurance and so now everyone must have health insurance!!!!

[Proboscis]

While I completely disagree with the way the Thai authorities are changing the goalposts, let us not forget how many Western countries also make it impossible for law-abiding families to stay in their countries. Australia sent home an Irish family because of a condition that the child developed; and Australia block even the most deserving cases of refugees and make them live in camps in other countries for years with little in the way of services. The UK sent home thousands of children of immigrants from the Carribean invited to work in the country after the war because they could not prove their status after the authorities had destroyed the evidence. There are so many instances of cruel decisions in immigration cases in the USA, far too many to document here, between the families where some members have the right to live in the USA, some members are being hunted by ICE and some members have unknown status.

 

So before we start throwing stones at the Thai system, perhaps we should look at our own systems first.

[brian2f2f]

3 hours ago, donnacha said:

My sympathies on that situation, it must have been incredibly upsetting for you and your wife.

You are, however, missing what I'm saying about the couple in this particular story. I am not suggesting they plead their case with the authorities - which might be part of what they are trying to do in drumming up this publicity - because, I agree with you, in this in this situation the only solution is to deposit $25K in a bank and let it sit there until their mother dies.

Given their backstory, $25K should not be a problem.

They say that they are American. They are in their 50's. They say they ran a Web design company which was so successful that they managed to sell it - you have to attain a certain size for it to be worth anyone's while to buy your company.

Now, for some reason, they are no longer able to use their valuable tech and business skills to drum up a relatively small amount of money. Even a coder without a history of business success would be able to earn that amount of money in about a month of working hard on freelance projects. There are two of them, it should be even easier.

Neither are they able to turn to family, friends, business colleagues, people they have helped in the past, members of their church or other groups they have been involved in.

Sadly for their mother, the reality is probably that the claimed business success never happened and they long ago burned all their bridges with friends and family.

 

25k is not a small amount of money. A manager of a pizza hut back in the states only makes around 23-24k a year. My friend who works at a factory and many others i know don't even make that much a yr. You really sound just kije most south east asians. White skin so rich. When the reality is that most are not. Maybe 25k is a little bit of money for you. But for most it is a lot of money. And by the wau since it is such a small amount of money in your eyes. Why don't you just give it to them. As it is only a small amount of money and won't be of any problem to you. 

[petertucker48]

4 hours ago, donnacha said:

I feel bad for the lady with Alzheimer's, but something is fishy about this story.

An American husband and wife team who ran a Web design business successful enough to be sold, and still relatively young, are unable to drum up one bank deposit of $25K which will allow their mother to stay in Thailand until she passes.

During the course of their business careers, did they not forge strong enough relationships with clients or collaborators to be able to ask around for help now that they have a real problem?

Don't they have have any family or family friends in America? Is gathering $25K really such an insurmountable challenge? 

Do they really think that living in Manila is going to be that much cheaper than Chiang Mai?

Do they understand how much harder it is to find a place to live there, and how much more expensive rent and utilities are?

Have they ever experienced the existential struggle of trying to find edible food in the Philippines?

Surely, if they had made any friends at all in during their 4 years in Thailand, someone would have pointed out that they can simply pay $600 per year for an agent to grease the wheels for them and stay right here in Chiang Mai. I mean, seriously, that is less that what their flights to Manila will cost them.

 

My guess is that their back story is bullshit and this is an attempt to salt gullible people, farang and Thai, into donating money to them. They have no intention of folding up their tents and moving their circus to Manila.

 

Have seen this "Story" before.

Think I may have stayed in Thailand too long now getting the "Repeats"

[ChrissUdon]

OP states, "The family have put 800,000 baht in the bank and Mrs Padgett could stay to February next year. " And after that if the 800k is in the bank...?

 

Sorry, I feel for the woman with her illness but as Immigration say rules is rules. If they bend them for one the floodgates open

 

Think I'll go cap in hand to my local Immigration office, the exchange rate drop means I don't quite meet the required 65k pm.... I'm sure they'll be accommodating and bend the rule for me......

[Isaanbiker]

5 minutes ago, Proboscis said:

While I completely disagree with the way the Thai authorities are changing the goalposts, let us not forget how many Western countries also make it impossible for law-abiding families to stay in their countries. Australia sent home an Irish family because of a condition that the child developed; and Australia block even the most deserving cases of refugees and make them live in camps in other countries for years with little in the way of services. The UK sent home thousands of children of immigrants from the Carribean invited to work in the country after the war because they could not prove their status after the authorities had destroyed the evidence. There are so many instances of cruel decisions in immigration cases in the USA, far too many to document here, between the families where some members have the right to live in the USA, some members are being hunted by ICE and some members have unknown status.

 

So before we start throwing stones at the Thai system, perhaps we should look at our own systems first.

Perhaps starting with a green card for those who have been living here for a long time, worked for the government and spent a hell lot of money. 

[oslooskar]

1 hour ago, Alan Michael said:

Isn't it a good thing that immigration rules in Europe are not so heartless to foreigners as Thailand's immigration is?

Many Thai citizens coming to Europe and other western countries are treated much better in Europe.

 

No, it is a very bad thing that immigration rules in Europe are all but nonexistent. The West needs to get tough on immigration so it doesn't end up like Sweden.

[ttrd]

6 hours ago, Jingthing said:

Tip of the iceberg. Think of all the people that will leave, are soon leaving or have already left due to the weirdly changed and unclear immigration policies that never post and never make the news.

 

Sent from my Lenovo A7020a48 using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

 

 

 

 

Wel, statistics tells otherwise - there are arriving more than leaving and an increase in both short and long term visas …  

[alzack]

They  never have wanted us It will get worse guys better make a plan , an exit plan

[Essecola]

You can feel it when you are at the airport here or out and about. It is NOT the land of smiles anymore. You can feel it in the air that something is wrong.

[CM Dad]

They need to apply for a medical visa through the care-giving facility.  It is only good for 90 days, but it can be renewed indefinitely by the facility.  No monthly income requirement or minimum bank deposit is required.  the 90-da y reports must still be done as well.

[dcnx]

4 hours ago, donnacha said:

My sympathies on that situation, it must have been incredibly upsetting for you and your wife.

You are, however, missing what I'm saying about the couple in this particular story. I am not suggesting they plead their case with the authorities - which might be part of what they are trying to do in drumming up this publicity - because, I agree with you, in this in this situation the only solution is to deposit $25K in a bank and let it sit there until their mother dies.

Given their backstory, $25K should not be a problem.

They say that they are American. They are in their 50's. They say they ran a Web design company which was so successful that they managed to sell it - you have to attain a certain size for it to be worth anyone's while to buy your company.

Now, for some reason, they are no longer able to use their valuable tech and business skills to drum up a relatively small amount of money. Even a coder without a history of business success would be able to earn that amount of money in about a month of working hard on freelance projects. There are two of them, it should be even easier.

Neither are they able to turn to family, friends, business colleagues, people they have helped in the past, members of their church or other groups they have been involved in.

Sadly for their mother, the reality is probably that the claimed business success never happened and they long ago burned all their bridges with friends and family.

 

Did you miss the part where they are already paying 80,000+ baht per month for the mothers care?

 

I’d love to see you save an extra $25k to waste when you’re already spending $2500 in addition to your own living expenses that are at least few thousand dollars more.

 

 

[GoodieAfterDark]

1 hour ago, moe666 said:

Spot on, this is the perfect spot to get some feel goods along with the Thai bashing that goes on. They lied to the consulate about the income statement over the years and now they do not want to put the cash in the bank. Great family true christian spirit they have for old mom

How do you know they are Christians? The old woman looks Jewish. Probably at least a Crypto Jew.

[dcnx]

11 minutes ago, ChrissUdon said:

OP states, "The family have put 800,000 baht in the bank and Mrs Padgett could stay to February next year. " And after that if the 800k is in the bank...?

 

Sorry, I feel for the woman with her illness but as Immigration say rules is rules. If they bend them for one the floodgates open

 

Think I'll go cap in hand to my local Immigration office, the exchange rate drop means I don't quite meet the required 65k pm.... I'm sure they'll be accommodating and bend the rule for me......

Thailand is the land of bending rules. Most people are just not rich enough to get them to bend.

[connda]

I feel so immensely sorry for this family.  This story by far is the most disturbing thing I've read since I arrived in Thailand.  It portrays exactly how deep the complete lack of compassion and humanity goes within the Thai government and the Thai culture as a whole.
A women diagnosed with advanced Alzheimer's Disease - a medical condition - is force out.  The Thai government can't issue her a medical visa and allow her to live out her life in a Thai nursing home even though the family can afford to pay the facilities cost.  The family and the woman are treated like a sacks of garbage instead of living, breathing human beings.
That's really, really disturbing.  I've truly have seen it all now.

Compassionate Buddhists?  They give Buddhism a bad name.  Respect for the elderly?  A joke.  "Thailand for Thais only.  Everyone else can go to hell", is the message of this tragedy shouts out loud and clear.

I wish someone would do a documentary on this inhumane nonsense for the world to see.  

[foxzami]

I remember  when the Asian crash occurred when Thailand  was almost begging  for  westerners  to come to live  here of  course  bringing  their money  with them  as  the Thai baht  plunged  to very low  levels.Now in 2019 the Thai baht is  fairly  strong and  with  tourism still  among  the  strongest revenue   raiser for  the Kingdom  the powers  that be seem now to  have  decided  to introduce measures making it much more  difficult for foreigners  who havemade a decison to make Thailand their retirement home.For many years  previous Retirement visa  holders were only to provide proof of having a income from outside Thailand of THB800,000 per annumn Those on  the said visa seemed happy with that and it seemed to have run smoothly for well over  the last decade. Now  the  current change regarding the THB800,000 annual income rules  looks  and  feels like  some sort of  deliberate  attack on Retirement  visa holders to make obtaining  or retaining the visa much  more  difficult  financially and when  one looks  at  the rules to this  change  can  resemble a form of  extortion  and  bordering on being an act of racism. I am not  trying to be an alarmist but  the situation is now this. Gone is  the renewal option of proving  a person has a annual income of THB800000 or for those who could  top up  their Thai Bank accounts  to  that  amount shortly  before  renewing  retirement visas . Instead Foreigners  are now under  the  new rules  that state perons who apply  for a retirement visa must  either show that they have  been banking THB65000 per month into a Thai Bank account;or have THB800000 in a Thai Bank account 3 months before  renewal or applying for the visa  and that amount must stay the same for 2 months  after the visa  has   been approved. The rest of  the year the visa holder can only withdraw 50% of  that money which  means  ANY FOREIGNER ON RETIREMENT VISA  must keep at a minimun THB400000 in a Thai Bank account. This is  their moiney no one elses  yet they are not alllowed  to withdraw it from  a bank and use their own savings as they desire. hence  the Thai Banks  have all these accounts  with THB400000 in  their for 7 months of  the year guaranteed and THB800000  in these accounts  for  the other 5 months. Even if  Retirement visa  holders  may own condos in Thailand  outright valued  much more  than THB800000 the immmigration dept  will not  consider  that as  PART  of a persons financial  standing even though it can prove  by living in your own home  fully paid  for that a  person  does not need to raise money  ffor rental purposes.   Imagine if  the same rules  were applied to Thai nationals  living and  working overseas  say USA  that would force a Thai National to have USD25000 in a USA Bank for  7 months of the year and  the rest of the year only allowed  to access half of  what is  their own money around USD12500  The  reality is  many American people  do not have  that sort of  sAVINGS LEVELS  GOING ON IN THEIR  ACCOUNTS AS AS  MANY OTHER COUNTRIES  Im  sure  the screams of  its a form of  exortion  etc  would be heard from  the Thai  people if this was done  to them  OS.  Sorry it just seems to me  that this new ruling is  another way of  extorting money  from foreigners  and  at the same  time making the Thai  Banks look  more profitable

[ttrd]

RE - Daughter DeAnna Denis, 57 said she personally loves Thailand and doesn't want to go to the Philippines but the family have no choice. They simply don't have enough money to deposit 800,000 baht in the bank and leave it there. 

 

Mrs Denis and her husband who is 55 originally come from Atlanta. They were attracted to Thailand as a retirement option after running a successful web development business that they sold. 

 

----

 

It seems to have been lack of planning rather than a Money problem...

 

 

[ttrd]

8 minutes ago, dcnx said:

Thailand is the land of bending rules. Most people are just not rich enough to get them to bend.

Meaning a lot of us must bend over … 

[garzhe]

6 hours ago, Jingthing said:

I think you overestimate the planning that has gone into these policy changes. Were the changes that basically punish mainly people that have been following the rules designed to actually go after "cheaters" or were they designed to drum up business to agents? I don't know, it's all speculation, but what is clear is that there are real life human consequences to any government policy change and it's hard to know which of the consequences were intended and which were not. 

Its about money, always has been always will be !

[elliss]

2 hours ago, BritTim said:

Because she is able to travel so would not have been granted any medical extension.

 

        Hope so , airlines  have rules on the mental health of passengers.