robblok Posted June 4, 2019 Share Posted June 4, 2019 IMHO Insulin is misunderstood by most low carb / keto advocates, I will shortly write some points but the article that i link is far more eloquent then I could ever be. The article is quite interesting. The basic assumption of most advocates of low carb / keto is that when insulin is present fat can't be burned. This is of course 100% true. However assuming you eat 3 times a day and each time after 2 hours your blood sugar is back to normal you only lose 6 hours that your body can't access your body-fat. Anyone thinking that your body can't compensate by burning fat faster to in the remaining hours to still burn enough fat simply underestimates the body. Insulin however has some pretty positive things too, like inhibiting the breakdown of muscle and transporting amino acids into muscle cells, also it stimulates protein synthesis. So while I agree that overdoing it on carbs is bad normal consumption of an active individual is not a problem and for those wanting to build muscle it might even be needed. IMHO in a person without metabolic problems its all about calories in vs calories out. Personally i get around 30% of my energy from carbs like oats / musli / fruits / macaroni and I eat more of them on training days as non training days. But in the end its all a matter of personal preference, and people should find out what works for them. https://www.t-nation.com/diet-fat-loss/insulin-advantage Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FracturedRabbit Posted June 4, 2019 Share Posted June 4, 2019 Unfortunately this is not a body builders forum, or even a forum for people who are metabolically healthy, or a forum for the low carb enthusiasts, it is the "I'm too fat" forum; which means that many of those who struggle with their weight and visit this forum are probably metabolically unhealthy and likely pre-diabetic or even diabetic, even if they don't know that yet. For them, insulin may not be the "enemy" but they are certainly insulin resistant to an extent and need to manage their insulin more than someone like yourself who is metabolically healthy. 88% of American adults are metabolically unhealthy, more than 100 million Americans are diabetic or pre-diabetic, 40% of UK hospital beds are occupied by those with diabetes or diabetes related diseases. The statistics are staggering and insulin resistance is the underlying condition that needs to be tackled to help people live healthier lives. I would suggest that for those struggling with metabolic health, insulin is indeed the enemy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eezergood Posted June 4, 2019 Share Posted June 4, 2019 30 minutes ago, FracturedRabbit said: Unfortunately this is not a body builders forum, or even a forum for people who are metabolically healthy, or a forum for the low carb enthusiasts, it is the "I'm too fat" forum; which means that many of those who struggle with their weight and visit this forum are probably metabolically unhealthy and likely pre-diabetic or even diabetic, even if they don't know that yet. For them, insulin may not be the "enemy" but they are certainly insulin resistant to an extent and need to manage their insulin more than someone like yourself who is metabolically healthy. 88% of American adults are metabolically unhealthy, more than 100 million Americans are diabetic or pre-diabetic, 40% of UK hospital beds are occupied by those with diabetes or diabetes related diseases. The statistics are staggering and insulin resistance is the underlying condition that needs to be tackled to help people live healthier lives. I would suggest that for those struggling with metabolic health, insulin is indeed the enemy. I would agree with almost all of your points, however EDUCATING the people as to why they are overweight, why low carb (or whatever ) can or my work and what they can do to help themselves moving forward...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robblok Posted June 4, 2019 Author Share Posted June 4, 2019 37 minutes ago, FracturedRabbit said: Unfortunately this is not a body builders forum, or even a forum for people who are metabolically healthy, or a forum for the low carb enthusiasts, it is the "I'm too fat" forum; which means that many of those who struggle with their weight and visit this forum are probably metabolically unhealthy and likely pre-diabetic or even diabetic, even if they don't know that yet. For them, insulin may not be the "enemy" but they are certainly insulin resistant to an extent and need to manage their insulin more than someone like yourself who is metabolically healthy. 88% of American adults are metabolically unhealthy, more than 100 million Americans are diabetic or pre-diabetic, 40% of UK hospital beds are occupied by those with diabetes or diabetes related diseases. The statistics are staggering and insulin resistance is the underlying condition that needs to be tackled to help people live healthier lives. I would suggest that for those struggling with metabolic health, insulin is indeed the enemy. Good point but the blindly .. go low carb or you can't lose weight is just misinformation. A good clear article on why things work the way they work is far more important. If you don't know why and how things work and you don't see the nuances then you got a bigger chance of failing. I would not say that someone who is say 10 kg overweight is metabolically challenged. I lost 25 kg without being pre diabetic. So I think that not everyone who is overweight is metabolically challenged. I would wager a bit that most people don't have to go low carb but just go from processed to unprocessed foods. It would be easier to maintain and probably just as beneficial. Personally I would advice people who want to lose weight to do at least a blood test to see how insulin resistant they are. Hba1c test. Maybe I just have an other idea about weight loss then you, i see people who have 10-15 kg to lose as too fat too and many of those people would not be metabolically challenged. But you got a good point I am just trying to make things more clear and give some weight against the low carb group who does not understand how things work. Those who do.. great. Those who parrot others and have no clue how or why.. not so great. Your one of those who does understand how things work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FracturedRabbit Posted June 4, 2019 Share Posted June 4, 2019 4 hours ago, eezergood said: I would agree with almost all of your points, however EDUCATING the people as to why they are overweight, why low carb (or whatever ) can or my work and what they can do to help themselves moving forward...... I agree, which is why I think "insulin is not the enemy" is a dangerous statement; for so many people it is the root cause of their problems. Sadly, very few people know, or care, why they are sick, and even fewer, even if they do know, are willing to do anything about it other than pop pills. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FracturedRabbit Posted June 4, 2019 Share Posted June 4, 2019 4 hours ago, robblok said: Good point but the blindly .. go low carb or you can't lose weight is just misinformation. A good clear article on why things work the way they work is far more important. If you don't know why and how things work and you don't see the nuances then you got a bigger chance of failing. I would not say that someone who is say 10 kg overweight is metabolically challenged. I lost 25 kg without being pre diabetic. So I think that not everyone who is overweight is metabolically challenged. I would wager a bit that most people don't have to go low carb but just go from processed to unprocessed foods. It would be easier to maintain and probably just as beneficial. Personally I would advice people who want to lose weight to do at least a blood test to see how insulin resistant they are. Hba1c test. Maybe I just have an other idea about weight loss then you, i see people who have 10-15 kg to lose as too fat too and many of those people would not be metabolically challenged. But you got a good point I am just trying to make things more clear and give some weight against the low carb group who does not understand how things work. Those who do.. great. Those who parrot others and have no clue how or why.. not so great. Your one of those who does understand how things work. "not everyone who is overweight is metabolically challenged". Of course not; but a significant proportion are and the percentage rises as people get older. Look round a mall in Pattaya and at least 70% of the elderly men are shuffling around with massive bellies; goodness knows what is happening in their bodies. The Hba1C test is not a good marker for diabetes, especially in the early stages. It's reliability is confounded by the fact that the better your metabolic health, the longer the life of your hemoglobin, which can lead to high scores for anotherwise healthy person. Fasting blood glucose, which seems to be the normal test, tells you nothing. Best is a fasted insulin test, but how many doctors offer that...? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robblok Posted June 4, 2019 Author Share Posted June 4, 2019 @FracturedRabbit You messed the quote up a bit but I get what your saying. I still think Hba1c is a good test to see if you are in the clear, at least its a lot better then the fasted blood glucose. Never knew there was a fasted insulin test. I did Hba1c tests and tracked progress when I changed diet and exercise. It helped for sure. It might not be perfect but it gives an idea. Thing is you and I have a different perspective, maybe because I am younger (i assume) i look other people then you do. Sure if you were just to take the older males there would be a higher percentage who are metabolically challenged. I was more looking at a cross section of people lower in age. Things is I read a lot on bodybuilding forums as there is a lot of good information there as bodybuilders are masters of getting their body in shape. Its basically all what the sport is about. So there are always a lot of people talking about it and trying things out. They too get too extreme for me at times but in general are more moderate then the low carb group. (far more open minded at least not narrow minded what i see in the low carb group with exceptions on both sides of course) That is of course a totally different group of people than you look at but both groups can be way over 10 kg overweight. It think we both might be falling for our own bias. You thinking the norm is old guys with huge bellies and me thinking about 18-50 year olds wanting get rid of fat. I understand low carb, just feel its taken to extreme and touted too much that is why i often bring up these kind of topics to balance it out. In no way do I think that low carb does not have its place. I just think its quite often not necessary and just going from processed to not processed is enough. I think your Pattaya expats are not really a good cross section of the population (just as fitness enthusiasts are not) Because most people come to Pattaya to party and drink. These are not people who care about themselves at all. They know with money they can get girls and live to party. So the types you see there are worse then in other places. I can't say i see the same group here in BKK. At least not in my part of BKK outside the pay for play area's. That is what I mean that we both have our bias, same like my group the "healthy" but over weight fitness guys are also not all present ???? Truth will be somewhere in the middle and it just shows that low carb can work but is not needed for everyone. I don't even think its needed for the majority (unless of course you only talk about older really fat people) I just thought this forum was for EVERYONE who wanted to lose weight.. not just the metabolically challenged. So more information on other ways is always useful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thedemon Posted June 4, 2019 Share Posted June 4, 2019 1 hour ago, FracturedRabbit said: The Hba1C test is not a good marker for diabetes, especially in the early stages. It's reliability is confounded by the fact that the better your metabolic health, the longer the life of your hemoglobin, which can lead to high scores for anotherwise healthy person. Fasting blood glucose, which seems to be the normal test, tells you nothing. Best is a fasted insulin test, but how many doctors offer that...? I agree with you about HbA1c. Once that starts creeping up you have probably been insulin resistant for a long time. Also agree that a fasting insulin (combined with fasting blood glucose) enabling you to calculate your HOMA-IR is a far better predictor of metabolic health. The only problem with that is blood insulin levels are so volatile that a one off test may not be reliable enough. Maybe including C Peptide would give some control over that? Perhaps the definitive test for insulin resistance is an OGTT (oral glucose tolerance test) combined with a simultaneous KRAFT insulin assay. I recently talked to a private lab in BKK about doing this and they said, though they haven't done it before, it would be possible. I'm not sure what the cost would be but I guess a ball park figure might be THB10-15K. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxisrael Posted June 5, 2019 Share Posted June 5, 2019 I have a low carbs lifestyle and lost a lot of weight my blood sugar is back to a normal level and for my high blood pressure I lowered from 100mg to 50mg my medication sporting (cycling) 5 hours a week and now on my age of 73 feeling better than before I started to low carbs lifestyle a year ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justin case Posted June 5, 2019 Share Posted June 5, 2019 youtube : JASON FUNG lower insulin for longer time ... 2 meals a day 16 /8 or 20/4 or just one meal a day eat HEALTHY on all you have to do fasted insulin and after a glucose test most T2D are insulin resistant for about 5-10 years before they get full blown T2D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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