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tomster

Percentage of land in Thailand registered with Chanotte?

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Posted (edited)

I met a guy last night that had worked in Thailand in years gone as a surveyor, from what I understand he was helping the government registering peoples claims to land and getting their Chanottes registered in the land office.

 

A question came up in the conversation - how much land in Thailand is actually registered under Chanotte in the Land Offices?

 

I've been Googling it this morning but can't seem to get even a rough estimate - does anybody have any knowledge of the numbers for this?

 

TIA.

 

 

Edited by tomster

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I don't have an answer to your question on how much land is registered as a chanote. There are other levels of Title Deeds in Thailand. These include from "weakest to strongest":

• Possesory rights like Por Bor Tor

•Pre-emption Nor Sor 2, Nor Sor 2 Gor

• Certificate of use Nor Sor 3, Nor Sor 3 Gor, Nor Sor 3 Kor*

▪ Chanote (NS-4)

* The Nor Sor 3 s have red, green or black garuda seals with Nor Sor 3 Kor (black) being " strongest" and closest to Chanote.

We will be looking at getting a surveyor and the Land Department to upgrade the deed we have on some land that is currently in a lower category.

 

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I too have no answer but would add to your question:

To what extent are registered Chanotes forged or otherwise illegal (ie., under the table issuance by government officials).

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On 6/19/2019 at 8:55 AM, tomster said:

I've been Googling it this morning but can't seem to get even a rough estimate - does anybody have any knowledge of the numbers for this?

If Google don't have the answer, its most likely not easy to find.

 

Lots of land up Isaan, mainly farm land, has low title deeds, if any but tax receipt. Its actually land the farmes are allowed to use for farming, but not much else, and the land cannot be owned, or (officially) traded, or (officially) sold, but still inherited for use in direct family line. Seems like lot of land slowly are upgraded to a higher title deed, i.e. chanote.

 

Land sloping more than 45 degrees are government land.

Wikipedia says about Thai land laws...

Quote

Land law is dealt with by the Land Code. This was established by Act Promulgating the Land Code, B.E. 2497 (1954).

 

Land in Thailand is covered by a system consisting of several title deeds offering different rights of use, possession, ownership or alienation. Most titles are issued by the Land Department and fall within seven main categories. Another five categories are issued by other government departments for specific purposes.

 

The Chanote (or Nor Sor 4 Jor) category, found in more developed parts of Thailand, offers private ownership (similar to freehold land). Other land is considered to belong to the government or the King of Thailand.

This page "OpenDevelopment Thailand" ~ found on Google – however, might give some clues...

Quote

Thailand undertook a large-scale land titling program from 1984-2004, aiming to clarify existing but undocumented ownership patterns and improve land administration in a comprehensive legal system. Over 11.5 million titles were issued during this period. The program was jointly funded by the Royal Thai Government, World Bank, and Government of Australia, and was viewed as a notable success.

Technically speaking, all land that is not classified as private land is considered state-owned forest land, which as of 2017 covered 40% of all land. This land is further divided into National Reserve Forest and Protected Forest.

[ ... ]

Nearly 19 percent of Thai land is classified as protected, including national parks and wildlife reserves – the highest rate in mainland Southeast Asia excluding Cambodia.

[ ... ]

Between 11 percent and 30 percent of agricultural land is under some form of tenancy. As much as one-third of agricultural land in the central region is leased, with much lower amounts in other regions. Landless households made up between 6 percent and 14 percent of the total in the 1990s.

🙂

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I was in our local Land Department offices really.  During the process for which we were there I had the opportunity to look at some of the land departments digitised survey maps. Obviously I can only speak for a very localised areas  in the area of my wifes land but very roughly, based on what I saw then less then 30% of the land had a designated Chanote title attached to it.  As I say that was only a localised area, and rural.

 

Now there are many people going through the process of obtaining a Nor Sor 4 and the wait is considerable given the numbers and processes involved. I think many land offices are probably now having to be squeaky clean and follow due process.  However one interesting snippet, true or not I don't know, but my question was how did so many poor families get Sor Kor 1 in the first place ? It appears over the decades their has been a few land inititives one being that if you occupied and farmed land for a period of 6 months then you could apply for SK 1.  But, even prior to that there was a government initiative that if you cleared forest land and then farmed it you were entitled to SK 1 for however much land you could clear !  Amassing if its true but would explain how some of the grandparents  of the families in my area managed to get SK 1 for so much land. 

 

Interesting if anyone else could provide any further insights into land use entitlement say more than 50/60 years ago

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On 6/20/2019 at 3:34 PM, geoffbezoz said:

But, even prior to that there was a government initiative that if you cleared forest land and then farmed it you were entitled to SK 1 for however much land you could clear !  Amassing if its true but would explain how some of the grandparents  of the families in my area managed to get SK 1 for so much land. 

 

Not dissimilar to some of the Government land leases in NSW (AUS). If you applied for a lease there were conditions that it be cleared and farmed. Some had conversion rights to Torrens under favorable conditions.

The information above by Khunper is interesting. The head of the School of Surveying at UNSW was an advisor to the Thai Government in the early 1970's on how to set up their titleing system. This was followed up by the head of Surveying from Melbourne Institute of Technology

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On 6/20/2019 at 10:34 AM, geoffbezoz said:

But, even prior to that there was a government initiative that if you cleared forest land and then farmed it you were entitled to SK 1 for however much land you could clear !  Amassing if its true but would explain how some of the grandparents  of the families in my area managed to get SK 1 for so much land. 

I was told the same on Samui, when I was looking for sea view land up the hills. Being the final plot, I could just clear land above it, and fence that land in – showing that I use it – and apply for a deed, as no other could get access to that land, without trespassing the land I was offered. Later I would be able to upgrade the title deed to a higher level, I was told.

 

I never bought any hill land, which might be wise enough, as some of the hill land might not have genuine deeds – or the trick with clearing and use land is not working – as @PoorSucker posted above, there might be to many deeds issued, like for "165%" of Koh Samui...:whistling:

 

However, a village chief noticed an actually attractive beachfront plot that had never been used, and thereby not owned by anyone, and started to use it by building a restaurant, and applied for a deed; so it either seem to work after all, or village chiefs have preferred status...🤔

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On 6/20/2019 at 10:45 AM, GreasyFingers said:

I have a link to the Land Office site that shows all of the registered chanotes. We are in a semi rural area with a lot of of what appears to be larger rural sites. It surprised me to see that most of this rural land is already subdivided.

To answer you specifically I have a copy of the LO charting map for our area. There is a diagonal line running across the page. On one side the titles are legal, on the other they can be claimed back by the government at any time as all of those chanotes are illegal. We had been offered two of these illegal chanotes and were lucky to ask the right questions to know what was going on.

so whats the link then?

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1 hour ago, Seeall said:

so whats the link then?

It is not something that I am supposed to have so cannot post a link. It is in Thai and you need to have a reference number for your chanote to use it.

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8 minutes ago, GreasyFingers said:

It is not something that I am supposed to have so cannot post a link. It is in Thai and you need to have a reference number for your chanote to use it.

oh dear... rulz rulz..   very australian.. cant fart without permission..   well what to google then?  dont worry about thai!  many of us can speak and read it after years here..... we not all silly barflies...

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3 minutes ago, Seeall said:

oh dear... rulz rulz..   very australian.. cant fart without permission..   well what to google then?  dont worry about thai!  many of us can speak and read it after years here..... we not all silly barflies...

Go to your local Land Office and ask them for the link.

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20 minutes ago, Seeall said:

oh dear... rulz rulz..   very australian.. cant fart without permission..   well what to google then?  dont worry about thai!  many of us can speak and read it after years here..... we not all silly barflies...

http://dolwms.dol.go.th/tvwebp/

 

Here's the website, it's public...

you need to enter the district, area in the first 2 boxes and the chanote nr in the last

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59 minutes ago, ThomasThBKK said:

http://dolwms.dol.go.th/tvwebp/

 

Here's the website, it's public...

you need to enter the district, area in the first 2 boxes and the chanote nr in the last

Good to know it is public and not restricted like my local Office said.

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