Getting Father Home from Thailand

[lamyai3]

If this was a novel where the central character was in trouble and on overstay, a plausible plot line might be to dress up a couple of locals to "arrest" him and escort him to the airport and get him on a flight. If he's genuinely on overstay, the fake cops would be hands down preferable to real ones, and should easily be able to convince him that he was being deported, but that someone had taken care of his fine and plane ticket.

 

While this might sound absurd, it's got to rank far above going through the official arrest, IDC and deportation procedure. 

[Tagged]

7 hours ago, Nong Khai Man said:

What are you Smoking ?? " Help from The British Embassy " FORGET It !!!

Oh, I forgot your country is no longer The Great Britain anymore. 

 

Let me check, no, sorry, computer say no

 

is there no interest volounteer group in Pattaya who have some kind of expertise on helping people? 

 

Anyway, what kind of a son would leave his father to himself in a condition like that?  

[Enoon]

13 hours ago, Williams9 said:

Problem is he still has capacity to know what's going on and refused to even think about coming back with me. He won't go anywhere to be looked after

 

First priority is he needs close attention and assistance to keep him out of danger, and in order that immediate action can be taken when the situation becomes critical.

 

Someone from the family should come and live with, or near him, to monitor the decline and be in the position to take positive, "legitimate" (as a family member) action when his incapacity becomes an emergency.

 

It is axiomatic that, when the time comes that he most needs help, he will be incapable of asking for it.

 

I would not trust an "agency" in Thailand to adequately carry out that duty, but others may know of a trustworthy one in Thailand.

 

I would hope that your father would not reject the idea of a family member (or rota of members) coming to stay for an extended "holiday/holidays".

 

It's not cheap or convenient........life, decline and death isn't like that.

 

'If the mountain will not come to Muhammad, then Muhammad must go to the mountain'

 

 

 

 

Edited June 20, 2019 by Enoon

[soalbundy]

11 hours ago, Dumbastheycome said:

I sympathize  with your situation.

Have you  actually  ever approached Thai Immigration to ask them if there is a "soft " way to  return him to the UK  under the circumstances?

Despite  the  gloom and doom brigade Thai authorities  can have compassion when not  affronted but asked  for  advice.

I think that this is probably the best way but take a Thai/English speaker with you and ask to speak with the top man. Failing that speak with the British Embassy maybe they can get the immigration to take him to the airport and put him on a plane with you accompanying him. A very difficult situation but it is definitely better that the IO know of the situation before things get out of hand.

[Benmart]

14 hours ago, Jingthing said:

You don't want to get him deported. That process could kill him.

Sent from my Lenovo A7020a48 using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app
 

I will join the others in asking foe details.

[Benmart]

13 hours ago, Jingthing said:

That's a lovely story but I very seriously doubt most such situations have such a "happy" ending.

Sent from my Lenovo A7020a48 using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app
 

"Most" means little. It has provides no examples to measure and in this instance is of little value. From experience, the US Embassy handles each case based on its unique circumstances. As for story of the the nursing facility dropping the person off at the doorstep, I would like to hear an Embassy official opine.

[Sheryl]

Not the Thai Embassy, the poster meant the British Embassy in Thailand.

Deportation would be possible only if he committed a crime or overstayed his visa and would entail a period of confinement in a detention center (as much as several weeks) under very brutal, crowded and unsanitary conditions. You absolutely do not want the Thai legal authorities involved with this.

You may have to go through legal proceedings in the UK to have him declared incomprtent. How you will do that when he is not in country I don't know but suggest you duscuss with social services.

I also suggest you send a PM to member NancyL as she wirks with a charity that has experience with things like this (though up in Chiang Mai) and would probably have an idea if the steps involved.

Sent from my SM-J701F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[shaurene]

Well it looks like his visa has expired. Try going to the imigration office and insist on seeing the highest officer. 

Ask him straight to his face can he help without asking for lots to f money before you travel to Bangkok and make an appointment with the New Imigration General.

you want the imigration to refuse granting him another 90 day visa and give the instructions he must leave Thailand for his home

country.

Be very carefull, you CANNOT TRUST anyone here. Not even your self at times or any so called lawyers. They all want money, money, money.

best of luck.

[murraynz]

14 hours ago, Williams9 said:

Problem is he still has capacity to know what's going on and refused to even think about coming back with me. He won't go anywhere to be looked after

 

very sad situation..Dementia is so cruel...

if you father is causing trouble for his neighbours and 'wasting' all his income, that can onlly get progressively worse.

the early stages of dementia, is very frustrating and confusing for the victim..that is why he wont co-operate with you...

im quite sure, that he would be far better out of thailand, where family can give him genuine help, without the risk of people 'ripping him off'..

is there some legal way that you can get'power of attorney' over his care, maybe some 'calming' drugs.and gently take him home ??

dementia can go on for many years, gets progressively worse..in the latter stages, he will probably be more co-operative, because he will have no idea who you are....

dementia, unfortunately, runs in my family, even though they live into their 90s..

my daughter and son, have both told me very clearly--that i will be getting 'dragged' back to NZ ,if i get too sick..to care for myself in thailand.

im perfectly ok now, but are preparing for my late 80s.. will buy 2brm condo,self-contained room for a live-in, paid nurse, to take full are of me....

good luck with your father..

 

[Prince77]

Although I presume you are not a German national, the Germans have a fantastic organisation called "Deutscher Hilfsverein" which is extremly helpful in such situations. They also have an affiliate in Pattaya so you may try to contact them for assistance: http://www.dhv-thailand.de/

 

Wish you best of luck.

[holy cow cm]

I just went through this with my family with my dad being in the US before he passed away. Very tough indeed. First of all he still has some or most of his memory with some minor - medium hiccups that are coming into play. If a family member can come and stay close or near would be the best. That is if there is a closeness between them. If not it defeats the purpose. And if can't then plan B with alternating family member visits here..

 

He has grown to love it here and will not leave. Forcibly removing him or setting it up where he is not granted a renewal will cause great family drifts when back in England. He will never trust anyone of you again and basically you have made his life a ball of crap.. 

 

Only way I see a way to alleviate this is if he knows he needs to have a some sort of a caretaker and is only allotted a certain amount of money to go out t spend not controlling his full amount of money. You would need to go to the places he frequents and talk behind his back to ask them to not give credit and to understand and [please help out where they can. But without his knowledge.. Driving is out of the question now, but this also is a sort of pride of freedom he will feel raped on being taken away from him.

 

Being in a condo is a tragedy waiting to happen and he is already pestering and annoying the other residents there. Rent a small house somewhere and rent the condo out. Get a caretaker to drop in a couple times a day or where ever he goes to visit and not crowd him so much until it is needed. He needs his freedom and privacy while he still has got it together to a point, so you need to use scruples.

 

I agree Nancy knows about setting these things up or can help direct. The hard part is still letting him feel like a free human being. It's all about him and not about you. So let him live how he needs to until he cannot anymore or expires. But he must be where he wants to live (here) until he cannot. Anyway is cheaper to afford it here.

[Formaleins]

15 hours ago, Tagged said:

Have you tried the embassy for help or advise?

The OP mentions income in Pounds, that would make them Brits. The British Embassy will do NOTHING! It is the worst of the worst, he will be lucky if they even lower themselves to speak to him let alone provide any help.

[jacko45k]

2 minutes ago, Formaleins said:

The OP mentions income in Pounds, that would make them Brits. The British Embassy will do NOTHING! It is the worst of the worst, he will be lucky if they even lower themselves to speak to him let alone provide any help.

I think that is harsh. I had a UK friend die here and they were pretty helpful on that matter. 

[Tagged]

22 minutes ago, Formaleins said:

The OP mentions income in Pounds, that would make them Brits. The British Embassy will do NOTHING! It is the worst of the worst, he will be lucky if they even lower themselves to speak to him let alone provide any help.

I met some missionery folks, and they are everywhere, helping, solving problems, and so on, so I guess there is many volountery organisations who have some expertise and help to offer! 

 

There is not even possible to get some proper advises? Sad, when embassys not even care or have resources to help out their citizens! 

[freedomnow]

If your father has anything over 24k in funds or property in UK it will be used to fund his care costs 2-3k per month in the UK especially property if no wife is resident.... a debt will rack on it or it will need to be sold. There are care homes in Thailand as well that cater to alz. patients.

 

Sounds like a nightmare sitauation, and I think someone has fleeced the poor man in the last 12 months of his 55k.

[AgMech Cowboy]

16 hours ago, JaiLai said:

How do you know that?

Let me think... Old person, probably on medication, detention in crowded room, no one to look after him... Yeah, it'll kill him.

[1FinickyOne]

I don't know if this is covered or not - - but, it is not easy to become the decision maker of another person, no matter what your motives... 

 

In USA, you need power of attorney.... consult your embassy and ask what is needed. I am not sure how you have been able to get power over his money, but that might be a first step, whatever you did to do that... 

 

Both my parents had dementia and often times the laws were not easy... nor was my father... just ask yourself, at what % loss of your facilities would you want another person making financial decisions for you? That is what he faces. 

 

You have my fullest sympathies. 

[robertson468]

Step one:  You need to get your Father to a Psychiatrist and have him assessed.  That will help in two ways.  One it will advise him that he is unwell and staying in Thailand is not an option as his condition is likely to be progressive.  Two, you will have medical evidence which hopefully will stop the Immigration Police from locking him up.  Very few Countries want to be labelled with locking up unwell people who technically are visitors to their Country. 

Step two.  Come to Thailand with someone to help you.  As you probably know from experience, if you are having a debate (arguement) if only two people are involved it is one against the other, however, if you have a relative, or friend on the same page as yourself and then both of you put the case to your Father, maybe, just maybe he will capitulate and return with you to the UK.  But you will need to watch him every stage of the journey.

I have every sympathy for you both.  For your Father who clearly loves Thailand and his life style here and for you because he will resent being dragged back to the good old UK, even with the best intentions and you could possibly end up as being enemy number one, as he will not have the comprehension as to what or why he has to go back to gloomy old UK.  Good luck.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

3 hours ago, lamyai3 said:

If this was a novel where the central character was in trouble and on overstay, a plausible plot line might be to dress up a couple of locals to "arrest" him and escort him to the airport and get him on a flight. If he's genuinely on overstay, the fake cops would be hands down preferable to real ones, and should easily be able to convince him that he was being deported, but that someone had taken care of his fine and plane ticket.

 

While this might sound absurd, it's got to rank far above going through the official arrest, IDC and deportation procedure. 

 

That's an interesting idea!!!  Thailand, of course, is rife with fake cops.... truly fake cops, and then various levels of semi "fake" cops....  And it's not like similar things haven't been done before here, usually as part of attempted financial extortion.

 

However, it's certainly illegal, and could have legal consequences for all those involved if things went wrong for any range of reasons.

 

[Jimbo1964]

I think two options, either find a nursing home for him here. But that might be difficult if he doesn't want to cooperate. Or get him assessed by a physiatrist and if the physiatrist concurs with you, your Dad can then be placed into your care to take home or placed in to a nursing home here. 

 

Definitely avoid immigration, police etc.

[steve73]

Unless he has sufficient income or savings to extend his visa he will HAVE to leave whether he wants to or not.  From the OP it's not clear whether he's already on overstay.  IF that's the situation then he may need to be unwillingly returned home, in preference to the arrest and IDC route.  Perhaps a medical escort (to administer sedation and/or a straitjacket) would be the only way.  It might sound harsh, but he'll have no recollection of it as soon as he arrives home. 

 

If he does have sufficient income to remain here legally then he really needs trustworthy full-time care, either a live-in nurse (or 2), or in a local care home that specialises in expats (there are a few of these dotted about).  Neither of these options would be cheap, although if his income is sufficient to provide a visa extension, it should be adequate.   An equivalent care-home or home-care would cost a lot more in the UK.  

 

Sadly, getting old is something we've all got to look forward to, and it sure beats the alternative.  

[Nong Khai Man]

4 hours ago, Tagged said:

Oh, I forgot your country is no longer The Great Britain anymore. 

 

Let me check, no, sorry, computer say no

 

is there no interest volounteer group in Pattaya who have some kind of expertise on helping people? 

 

Anyway, what kind of a son would leave his father to himself in a condition like that?  

Yes You have that Correct......Oh, I forgot your country is no longer The Great Britain anymore.

[Jingthing]

3 hours ago, Sheryl said:

Not the Thai Embassy, the poster meant the British Embassy in Thailand.

Deportation would be possible only if he committed a crime or overstayed his visa and would entail a period of confinement in a detention center (as much as several weeks) under very brutal, crowded and unsanitary conditions. You absolutely do not want the Thai legal authorities involved with this.

You may have to go through legal proceedings in the UK to have him declared incomprtent. How you will do that when he is not in country I don't know but suggest you duscuss with social services.

I also suggest you send a PM to member NancyL as she wirks with a charity that has experience with things like this (though up in Chiang Mai) and would probably have an idea if the steps involved.

Sent from my SM-J701F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app
 

People were asking me for details on WHY an older person with medical problems life would be at risk if deported. I'm shocked that I got pushback on that. It's hard for me to understand that anyone that has lived in Thailand doesn't know about the harsh prison conditions here. I don't know all the details of this man's condition, but imagine if you had complex medical problems requiring daily treatment, clean conditions, and multiple medications. Of course you'd be at risk of death being under detention. 

[Captain 776]

Just handle your business.  Come here with another family member or 2 and do an intervention OR. just tell him you are taking him to UK FOR 2 week vacation tovisit family

[Nong Khai Man]

2 hours ago, Formaleins said:

The OP mentions income in Pounds, that would make them Brits. The British Embassy will do NOTHING! It is the worst of the worst, he will be lucky if they even lower themselves to speak to him let alone provide any help.

Thank You for Agreeing with my post Earlier #54............

[Nong Khai Man]

2 hours ago, jacko45k said:

I think that is harsh. I had a UK friend die here and they were pretty helpful on that matter. 

That IS Quite Unusual though !!

[scubascuba3]

Just handle your business.  Come here with another family member or 2 and do an intervention OR. just tell him you are taking him to UK FOR 2 week vacation tovisit family

That's the best idea so far. Will be much easier once he's back in the UK

[Just Weird]

15 hours ago, KhunFred said:

The embassy will not even help in a dire emergency. They are worthless as a resource for expats. The recent debacle with "statutory declarations" should illustrate that very clearly. I am 69 and have issues resulting from brain surgery ten years ago. I recently learned that the "shunt" that was placed in my skull to drain fluid off my brain, is only good for about ten years. Lately, I have memory issues similar to the symptoms I developed when I first was diagnosed with hydrocephalus. My greatest fear is suffering from dementia in Thailand and being caught up in a legal mess because I can't remember things. I should probably go to the Philippines or Vietnam where there is a bit more compassion, but I came here to retire in Thailand and a move is expensive and very stressful. I can certainly sympathize with the situation which was described.  Best of luck. We will ALL need it.

"The embassy will not even help in a dire emergency. They are worthless as a resource for expats. The recent debacle with "statutory declarations" should illustrate that very clearly".

Complete nonsense which should be ignored.

 

"I am 69 and have issues resulting from brain surgery ten years ago. I recently learned that the "shunt" that was placed in my skull to drain fluid off my brain, is only good for about ten years. Lately, I have memory issues similar to the symptoms I developed when I first was diagnosed with hydrocephalus. My greatest fear is suffering from dementia in Thailand and being caught up in a legal mess because I can't remember things. I should probably go to the Philippines or Vietnam where there is a bit more compassion, but I came here to retire in Thailand and a move is expensive and very stressful. I can certainly sympathize with the situation which was described.  Best of luck. We will ALL need it".

Completely irrelevant to the OP.  Unfortunate though they are, your current medical issues are your problem alone, not the Embassy's, and even more irrelevant to the OP.

Edited June 20, 2019 by Just Weird

[NancyL]

Lanna Care Net has had much experience with exactly this sort of situation in Chiang Mai.  It's easier here where there are several good options for residential assisted living and a good government regional psychiatric hospital.  The police are good about taking an elderly person who is out-of-control to Suan Prung hospital where they are held on a "police admission", i.e. they can't check themselves out, rather than tossing them in jail.

 

Here we have indeed organized "managed deportations" and consider it a blessing when someone who needs to return to their home country goes on overstay.  Our Honorary British Consul, in particular, is very good at working with Chiang Mai Immigration, to assure them that an elderly, at-risk person on overstay is being held in a supervised situation, like the mental hospital or an assisted living center until they have their deportation hearing before a judge (here in Chiang Mai, not Bangkok) and are sent out of Thailand on a direct international flight from Chiang Mai. Sometimes Immigration has even made arrangements for a elderly overstayer to be held in the local woman's prison, in a cell away from the general population, rather than taken down to IDC.  (the men's prison is w-a-y far out-of-town) It's good that the man in question has family who cares and has the resources to pay for his return to the U.K.  A private cell at the local woman's prison is a vast improvement over IDC in Bangkok.

 

With the Americans, they prefer to simply pay the full overstay fine, even though it would be reduced with a court hearing, avoid a court hearing, and send the elderly overstayer home via a loan if his family or friends are unwilling to pay.  I know of elderly Americans who have been held at the local gov't medical hospital, with a leg shackle to their bed, until the time of their flight to the U.S.  They're still permitted visitors.  Recently, a photo of an elderly American on overstay, shackled to his bed at Nakorn Ping hospital, made the rounds on social media with everyone decrying how he was being treated like a criminal.  Hmm, sorry to break the news, but he was a criminal and I think he was as strong-willed as the OP's father and probably would have tried to do a runner from the hospital.  

[Just Weird]

13 hours ago, onera1961 said:

The entire forum is full of posts with criticism of Thailand, Thainess, Thai culture, Thai efforts, Thai education, Thai immigration, Thai offices, and every thing. You can't show me one post where people are praising the virtues of Thailand. When I question the lure of Thailand that attracts farangs to live in this authoritarian country which is true, polluted air (true), polluted beaches (true), sois overflowing with garbage (true), I wonder why there is a resistance. Even the moderator banned me for week for telling the truth. 

"When I question the lure of Thailand that attracts farangs to live in this authoritarian country which is true...".

Untrue.  Thailand for foreigners is no more "authoritarian" than any other country with a government.

 

"polluted air (true)"

Untrue as a generalization. That does not occur everywhere, or in fact, most of the time.

 

"...polluted beaches (true)"

Untrue again.  Not every beach in Thailand is polluted!  Same as most other countries.

 

"...sois overflowing with garbage (true)".

Untrue, once more.   In general, nothing could be farther from the truth regarding Thailand's streets, a few may be like that, nowhere near all.

 

Take care, if you discuss moderation on the forum you'll just get suspended again.