Bluespunk Posted June 22, 2019 Share Posted June 22, 2019 41 minutes ago, nauseus said: This position is being unnecessarily pushed and forced by the EU to create a major hurdle to Brexit by inserting this "backstop" into their withdrawal agreement. No, it’s not. Eire tried to reach an agreement with the U.K. after the brexit vote as they, unlike the tories, immediately realised the implications for the Good Friday Agreement. They even offered an ad hoc arrangement, where issues that affected it could be dealt with on a case by case basis. With the ineptitude that has been typical of the tories handling of brexit, they did nothing. Eire then went to the EU member states and ensured that a mechanism to ameliorate the consequences of brexit on the Good Friday Agreement was part of any deal. Eire is not the backwater noddy state that so many brexiteers portray it as, when they say the backdoor was forced on Eire. It is the result of Eire protecting its own interests and tory incompetence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welovesundaysatspace Posted June 22, 2019 Share Posted June 22, 2019 Neither Ireland nor the EU need to do anything about it. The GFA only lives through agreements. When the UK unilaterally decides to leave those agreements, it’s up to the UK to ensure the GFA through other means of new agreements. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stephenterry Posted June 22, 2019 Share Posted June 22, 2019 56 minutes ago, nauseus said: This position is being unnecessarily pushed and forced by the EU to create a major hurdle to Brexit by inserting this "backstop" into their withdrawal agreement. Quite correct. It's to prevent civil war breaking out if a hard border is put in place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nauseus Posted June 22, 2019 Share Posted June 22, 2019 3 hours ago, Bluespunk said: No, it’s not. Eire tried to reach an agreement with the U.K. after the brexit vote as they, unlike the tories, immediately realised the implications for the Good Friday Agreement. They even offered an ad hoc arrangement, where issues that affected it could be dealt with on a case by case basis. With the ineptitude that has been typical of the tories handling of brexit, they did nothing. Eire then went to the EU member states and ensured that a mechanism to ameliorate the consequences of brexit on the Good Friday Agreement was part of any deal. Eire is not the backwater noddy state that so many brexiteers portray it as, when they say the backdoor was forced on Eire. It is the result of Eire protecting its own interests and tory incompetence. Interesting. Any links to the first bit? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nontabury Posted June 22, 2019 Share Posted June 22, 2019 4 hours ago, chilli42 said: Hey, what about just giving N Ireland back to the Irish and have done with the whole thing? Solves the border issue with Brexit, ensures the peace and puts right the historic injustice that N Ireland represents. A good idea,except the majority in N Ireland prefer to remain in the U.K. And this situation will remain until the time arrives when the Nationalist outbreed the Loyalist community, or the IRA completes its mission to expel by force the Loyalists. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chomper Higgot Posted June 22, 2019 Share Posted June 22, 2019 22 minutes ago, nauseus said: Interesting. Any links to the first bit? The implications of Brexit were definitely discussed before the Referendum, I found this filed under 'Project Fear': https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun/21/northern-ireland-fear-brexit-conflict-good-friday-agreement-eu The EU were offering solutions as early as July 2016 (you may wish to believe they were making these suggestions without involving Eire). https://www.ft.com/content/56d8946e-527f-11e6-9664-e0bdc13c3bef Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluespunk Posted June 22, 2019 Share Posted June 22, 2019 46 minutes ago, nauseus said: Interesting. Any links to the first bit? There were a few articles that mentioned on it on bbc back in 2017/2018. I didn’t bookmark them but I’ll try to dig them out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluespunk Posted June 22, 2019 Share Posted June 22, 2019 2 hours ago, nauseus said: Interesting. Any links to the first bit? Can’t find exact article I want, but these show Eire was the one who raised the border issue and the impact of brexit on the Good Friday Agreement. https://www.rte.ie/amp/972531/ https://amp.ft.com/content/73ac4a5c-d83f-11e8-a854-33d6f82e62f8 https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/apr/18/how-the-irish-backstop-emerged-as-mays-brexit-nemesis I’ll keep looking for the one I want... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
candide Posted June 22, 2019 Share Posted June 22, 2019 9 hours ago, dick dasterdly said: Looks like he is doing his best to promote the eu's line......???? The alternative and more likely explanation is that the EU is doing its best to protect the interest of one of its member States. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loiner Posted June 22, 2019 Share Posted June 22, 2019 The alternative and more likely explanation is that the EU is doing its best to protect the interest of one of its member States.Or more likely that the EU is doing it’s best to protect its own interests, without protecting one of its member States. Sorry Ireland, but you’re getting screwed and it’s all for the EU greater good, not yours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CG1 Blue Posted June 22, 2019 Share Posted June 22, 2019 8 hours ago, Proboscis said: Since Ireland does only about 15% of its trade with the UK, in theory it will not be affected but much of the trade in goods goes through the UK. In a real hard Brexit with no facility for sealed transit containers, Ireland would have to ship around the island of the UK to access other EU countries. Inconvenient but not impossible. I was under the impression more like half of Irish exports are to the UK? Contrary to what you say about Ireland not being affected, I believe they've asked for a bail out to be ready from the EU: https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/feb/05/ireland-and-eu-discuss-emergency-funds-to-offset-no-deal-brexit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loiner Posted June 22, 2019 Share Posted June 22, 2019 You are wrong on every single point. No, right on every single point. Why do you think that? Otherwise I wouldn’t have bothered posting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loiner Posted June 22, 2019 Share Posted June 22, 2019 Neither Ireland nor the EU need to do anything about it. The GFA only lives through agreements. When the UK unilaterally decides to leave those agreements, it’s up to the UK to ensure the GFA through other means of new agreements. If the UK does not create any new border posts, it’s not the UK problem. If the EU or Ireland does (how will they do that?) then they break the agreement.No need for new GFA agreements from the UK, the EU will have made Ireland break theirs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluespunk Posted June 22, 2019 Share Posted June 22, 2019 21 minutes ago, Loiner said: No, right on every single point. Why do you think that? Otherwise I wouldn’t have bothered posting. So wrong it’s laughable https://www.rte.ie/amp/972531/ https://amp.ft.com/content/73ac4a5c-d83f-11e8-a854-33d6f82e62f8 https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/apr/18/how-the-irish-backstop-emerged-as-mays-brexit-nemesis https://www.vox.com/platform/amp/world/2019/2/18/18204269/brexit-irish-border-backstop-explained As to why you post... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
puipuitom Posted June 22, 2019 Share Posted June 22, 2019 9 hours ago, stephenterry said: As has the UK government promised to protect the Good Friday agreement. IMO, any UK PM would never reignite civil war just because the hard Brexiteers prefer making trade deals, instead. The solution is easy. Stay in the Customs Union and avoid conflict. Extensive trade deals are already in place. Just look at your supermarket shelves and high street shops full of produce from all parts of the globe, including the USA and China. As Del Boy would say, 'lovely jubbly, you know it makes sense'. But hit by a Nay vote in the HoC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
petemoss Posted June 22, 2019 Share Posted June 22, 2019 6 minutes ago, Loiner said: No need for new GFA agreements from the UK, the EU will have made Ireland break theirs. Quite the opposite. If the British government decide to leave with no deal then, automatically, the customs union disappears overnight. No customs union = hard border, no way round that. Hard border = breach of the GFA. Ergo, the whole mess of a hard border would be entirely the fault of the British government. The EU will see it that way, the ROI will see it that way and, more importantly, the IRA will see it that way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
puipuitom Posted June 22, 2019 Share Posted June 22, 2019 10 hours ago, dick dasterdly said: Looks like he is doing his best to promote the eu's line......???? What YOU thought is job was then ? To promeote Boris the Liar's stories ? Do not forget: that "backstop" clause is ONLY and ONLY for the case the EU and the UK can not solve the problem. Then there are two options: change or no deal. The Irish prime minister got this into the agreement because he stands for the interests of ALL Irish and want to uphold the Good Friday agreement. But probably the world has to come to the conclusion a signature of the UK is worth… maybe 20 years… Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
puipuitom Posted June 22, 2019 Share Posted June 22, 2019 9 hours ago, dick dasterdly said: The eu has already made it very clear that it has no interest in talking trade or coming up with a reasonable deal - so this is good news ????. Shame that he didn't use that veto when the last extension was agreed..... They discussed for over 3 years. What you want then ? The agreement between 425 mln EU citizens and 65 mln British is orchestred and pushed through by the wishes of 51,88 % of the British voters ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
puipuitom Posted June 22, 2019 Share Posted June 22, 2019 8 hours ago, Proboscis said: But I thought that was the whole point of the argument. A crash-out no-deal Brexit would mean a hard border. The only way around that would be the deal that has already been agreed with the EU or a no-deal Brexit with loads of piece-meal agreements about lots of features, such as airlines, different kinds of cross-border services, security issues, goods standards, customs, just to name a few. The latter would mean a mess but not a complete disaster if there were a SUFFICIENTLY MANAGED NO-DEAL BREXIT. The hope would be that if there were sufficiently managed no-deal Brexit, there would be no need for a hard border, for now. But it would be a real stretch. The hard fact is that the UK is geographically very close to a group of countries that are all either in the EU or the EEA. Nothing is going to change that fact. And it is true that Britain withdrawing completely from the EU will have an effect on certain countries - Germany most of all, France much less. Since Ireland does only about 15% of its trade with the UK, in theory it will not be affected but much of the trade in goods goes through the UK. In a real hard Brexit with no facility for sealed transit containers, Ireland would have to ship around the island of the UK to access other EU countries. Inconvenient but not impossible. The real loss as a result of Brexit will be felt in the UK. The harder the Brexit, the worse the economy will suffer - we could be looking at a 10 year depression. Add an outbreak of hostilities in Northern Ireland (which is part of the UK) and you have additional costs. Add lack of cooperation between EU countries and the UK over security and you will have additional costs. UK will have to develop its own GPS system as it will no longer have access to the EU system. UK will have to run its own pharmacutical testing and standards system as it will no longer have access to the EU system under a hard Brexit. That is just for starters. What no one seems to talk about is inflation. When you reduce trade (which withdrawal from the largest trading bloc in the world invariably would result in), prices go up for several reasons - one is shortage of supply. Another is because there is a loss of economies of scale which open borders allow. Customs costs, barriers and tarrifs also lead to increase costs of all imports. The UK will find itself in a scissors problem - on one hand, it will not be able to make enough in taxes to meet its needs in social payments etc. On the other hand, costs of necessities, especially food, will go up, putting pressure on social payments and the low paid, thereby putting pressure on wages. Sea freigth is often cheaper as truck freigth. We probably will see a lot more ferries from Ireland to France. No costs in the UK anymore = no spending There are 3 ferry routes operating between France and Ireland offering you combined total of 8 sailings per week. Irish Ferries operates 1 route, Cherbourg to Dublin which runs 3 times weekly. Brittany Ferries operates 1 route, Roscoff to Cork which runs 2 times weekly. Stena Line operates 1 route, Cherbourg to Rosslare which runs 3 times weekly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
puipuitom Posted June 22, 2019 Share Posted June 22, 2019 9 hours ago, stephenterry said: Link please, to this assertion. The UK could not come with any proposition except: "we are against" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
puipuitom Posted June 22, 2019 Share Posted June 22, 2019 8 hours ago, nontabury said: Yet the Irish government has now admitted, They will create a hard boarder, thus going against the Good Friday Agreement. Allthough to be fair to them,they will only implement this decision at the bequest of the Bureaucrats in Brussels. The same Bureaucrats who ignored a Democratic decision of the Irish people to vote against the implementation of the so called Lisbon Treaty. You mix cause and response. ONLY because the UK decides to leave the EU, have control over their borders and sovereignity in between, the Irish Republic must create and crontrol that border. These "Bureaucrats in Brussels" can ONLY execute decissions out of the EU council, consisting of the prime ministers - inclusive that of the UK till 31 Oct- of the EU member states. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loiner Posted June 22, 2019 Share Posted June 22, 2019 So wrong it’s laughable https://www.rte.ie/amp/972531/ https://amp.ft.com/content/73ac4a5c-d83f-11e8-a854-33d6f82e62f8 https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/apr/18/how-the-irish-backstop-emerged-as-mays-brexit-nemesis https://www.vox.com/platform/amp/world/2019/2/18/18204269/brexit-irish-border-backstop-explained As to why you post...Yeah, still laughable. That’s why you’re still wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluespunk Posted June 22, 2019 Share Posted June 22, 2019 18 minutes ago, Loiner said: Yeah, still laughable. That’s why you’re still wrong. Ah, the scintillating brilliance of brexiteer logical positivism. Did you even read the links? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
puipuitom Posted June 22, 2019 Share Posted June 22, 2019 8 hours ago, nauseus said: Quite wrong. Ireland will be very much affected if no deal. Especially farmers, particularly beef exports. The Irish beef exporters can replace the Welsh beef exporters. With a transit time of 18 hours by ferry to Cherbourg. By car from Dublin to Calais = 9 uur, 44 min by private car and 783 km. For a lorry a nice alternative, unless you have to drive then north to B, NL, D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
puipuitom Posted June 22, 2019 Share Posted June 22, 2019 8 hours ago, stephenterry said: Yeah, I heard that woud apply to all UK farmers, not just Ireland. If there is a hard Brexit, what would be the outcome and how would the government resolve it? EU dos NOT allow any meat be imported from coutries, where mouth & claw disease could be possible. South America is free of that disease, the rest… not. So, in case of a no-deal.. end of UK export of any meat towards the EU. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
puipuitom Posted June 22, 2019 Share Posted June 22, 2019 7 hours ago, chilli42 said: Hey, what about just giving N Ireland back to the Irish and have done with the whole thing? Solves the border issue with Brexit, ensures the peace and puts right the historic injustice that N Ireland represents. Back to the Single Kingdom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluespunk Posted June 22, 2019 Share Posted June 22, 2019 Just now, Loiner said: Of course not. They’re just Remainerism. Ah huh...if you read them you’d see they are actually outlining Eire’s attempts to find solutions to issues caused by brexit that affect Eire and the Good Friday Agreement. In effect preparing for the departure of the uk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metisdead Posted June 22, 2019 Share Posted June 22, 2019 Some troll posts have been removed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
puipuitom Posted June 22, 2019 Share Posted June 22, 2019 8 hours ago, nauseus said: This position is being unnecessarily pushed and forced by the EU to create a major hurdle to Brexit by inserting this "backstop" into their withdrawal agreement. Maybe time to read ? The 'backstop' was a British proposal, not one tabled by Ireland or the ... https://www.irishtimes.com/.../the-backstop-was-a-british-proposal... Vertaal deze pagina 18 jan. 2019 - It was a UK proposal, not one tabled by Ireland or the EU, and reflected ... are with Britain rather than with Northern Ireland, moving the customs border ... 'If there is a hard Brexit we will definitely see gaps on shelves' · EU has ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
puipuitom Posted June 22, 2019 Share Posted June 22, 2019 5 hours ago, nauseus said: Interesting. Any links to the first bit? see in Google with "Ireland tried to reach an agreement with the U.K. after the brexit vote seen Good Friday agreement " Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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