High-speed rail project linking three Thai airports to be signed next month

[mickey rat]

$-)

[josephbloggs]

20 hours ago, newnative said:

Maybe a link between the Bangkok airports is needed but I can't see a pressing need to link them to U-Tapao.

Why is this so hard for people to understand? It is not being built for people to transfer from U Tapao to Don Mueang.  It is a modern railway to connect the two Bangkok airports and to serve the eastern seaboard / EEC.  Can you imagine the fuss on TV if they built a new railway from Bangkok out to Pattaya and Rayong and decided not to connect it to U-Tapao?  

It all makes perfect sense.

[observer90210]

Good Project.

And the "project" will become reality in which century please ?

[Lakegeneve]

19 hours ago, sjaak327 said:

In that case, it isn't really a high speed line, and it shouldn't be advertised as such. The reason why the ARL is oversubscribed is because it's main usage is the people travelling from Lat Krabang and beyond to the city center. The express line of the ARL has vanished. It was stopped about three-four years ago. The only way for this link to be viable is when it stops at as much places as possible.

You are still misunderstanding the ARL and thinking of it solely as a dedicated Airport line. The ARL was built as a commuter line which terminated at the new airport. As a commuter line is is built for eventual 10 car operations which was envisaged to commence by 2028 once the ARL was extended to DMK. The line is built for 120km operations.

 

It also had an ill conceived Express service which as you rightly pointed out ceased services in Sept 2014. This was due to the fact that it was only getting a couple hundred of pax a day as there was not real time advantage between 26 mins and 15 mins. Also, the location of the CAT at Makkasan was built both with the expectation that the huge Makkasan railyard redevelopment would created a mini city at Makkasan by 2020, and also that the CAT would be used as a main station for a future Eastern HSR line terminus thought to be operational by 2015. (Note the Makkasan rail yard redevelopment is currently on it's 5th master plan since 2000). Thus, the CAT unlike Hong Kong Station or Sentral in KL is not located in a central, well connected location and because both the Eastern HSR and Makkasan redevelopment have been significantly delayed. (The future MRT Light Blue is also planned to run via Makkasan station).

 

A note here on pax growth, the ARL has 9 trains (5 Cityline and 4 Express). By 2012 pax numbers were growing greatly, so the SRT in mid 2013 approved the purchase of 7 new 5 car trains which had the order been placed promptly would have dealt with the large pax increases ("oversubscribed" as you term it) as the new rolling stock would have arrived by the end of 2015. However, the SRT being the SRT didn't try to tender until 2015 and then that tender was cancelled due to corruption allegations. Again, they tried in late 2016 but had a similar problem. (During this time pax had grown from 45k a day in 2013 to over 70k a day). In BKK with every metro or commuter line there has been overcrowding as the operators are always 2-3 years behind pax growth - as highlighted by the MRT Blue Line and the BTS in general.

 

(Another note is that the SRT has a stupid plan to completely duplicate most of the ARL with an extended SRT light Red line, but that is a whole other universe of explanation).

 

Again, the long planned Eastern HSR line had been merged with the long planned ARL extension to DMK. There is no doubt that demand for the extended ARL is there as many pax want an easy link into the central areas. There is also no doubt that the Eastern HSR will have large pax numbers once operational - most going to/from Chonburi. That both projects have been merged into one project has advantages and while U-Tapao won't have a large amount of pax (airport has 3m annual pax) the airport will grow in future decades. 

 

Lastly, you are completely incorrect with your last line. The less stops makes this project more viable for a HSR line. More stops means the service takes longer and loses the time advantage. At this stage, 8 stations are planned : DMK, Bang Sue, Makkasan, BKK Airport, Chonburi, Si Racha, Pattaya & U-Tapao (plus future ext to Rayong). 

[Vacuum]

On 6/25/2019 at 9:31 AM, seajae said:

bet there will be a nice commission for them in this

 

That's the whole idea. No one cares how people get to the airports.

[sjaak327]

36 minutes ago, Lakegeneve said:

You are still misunderstanding the ARL and thinking of it solely as a dedicated Airport line. The ARL was built as a commuter line which terminated at the new airport. As a commuter line is is built for eventual 10 car operations which was envisaged to commence by 2028 once the ARL was extended to DMK. The line is built for 120km operations.

 

It also had an ill conceived Express service which as you rightly pointed out ceased services in Sept 2014. This was due to the fact that it was only getting a couple hundred of pax a day as there was not real time advantage between 26 mins and 15 mins. Also, the location of the CAT at Makkasan was built both with the expectation that the huge Makkasan railyard redevelopment would created a mini city at Makkasan by 2020, and also that the CAT would be used as a main station for a future Eastern HSR line terminus thought to be operational by 2015. (Note the Makkasan rail yard redevelopment is currently on it's 5th master plan since 2000). Thus, the CAT unlike Hong Kong Station or Sentral in KL is not located in a central, well connected location and because both the Eastern HSR and Makkasan redevelopment have been significantly delayed. (The future MRT Light Blue is also planned to run via Makkasan station).

 

A note here on pax growth, the ARL has 9 trains (5 Cityline and 4 Express). By 2012 pax numbers were growing greatly, so the SRT in mid 2013 approved the purchase of 7 new 5 car trains which had the order been placed promptly would have dealt with the large pax increases ("oversubscribed" as you term it) as the new rolling stock would have arrived by the end of 2015. However, the SRT being the SRT didn't try to tender until 2015 and then that tender was cancelled due to corruption allegations. Again, they tried in late 2016 but had a similar problem. (During this time pax had grown from 45k a day in 2013 to over 70k a day). In BKK with every metro or commuter line there has been overcrowding as the operators are always 2-3 years behind pax growth - as highlighted by the MRT Blue Line and the BTS in general.

 

(Another note is that the SRT has a stupid plan to completely duplicate most of the ARL with an extended SRT light Red line, but that is a whole other universe of explanation).

 

Again, the long planned Eastern HSR line had been merged with the long planned ARL extension to DMK. There is no doubt that demand for the extended ARL is there as many pax want an easy link into the central areas. There is also no doubt that the Eastern HSR will have large pax numbers once operational - most going to/from Chonburi. That both projects have been merged into one project has advantages and while U-Tapao won't have a large amount of pax (airport has 3m annual pax) the airport will grow in future decades. 

 

Lastly, you are completely incorrect with your last line. The less stops makes this project more viable for a HSR line. More stops means the service takes longer and loses the time advantage. At this stage, 8 stations are planned : DMK, Bang Sue, Makkasan, BKK Airport, Chonburi, Si Racha, Pattaya & U-Tapao (plus future ext to Rayong). 

Hold on, apart from the commuter aspect of the ARL, the express service was touted as being the centerpiece of the line. I already knew the first time I took the line (when it was still in the trial phase) it would never work as an ARL. Firstly, there wasn't a proper connection to even the nearest MRT station (Phetburi), I had to walk beneath the massive building, and cross a busy road to actually get to the MRT. The promised check in facilities at Makassan either never actually worked or were scrapped in the beginning. It was ill conceived and did not offer the advantage as the Hong Kong line does, that should have been the benchmark they should have used, but as usual, they failed even with this benchmark available to them. And the same company is going to exploit this line is it not ? Not a prospect that holds much confidence. The SRT is a company that still has to prove it can do something right. And let's get something right here, the reason the express line was scrapped intially was maintenance problems. 

 

To me, the ARL as referred to by it's name (Airport Rail Link) has failed miserably. I actually took the line (when it wasn't in it's trial phase, a few years back) from the airport. I needed to go to Thong Lor, now normally I would not even think to take the ARL, as it isn't faster, but decided to take it just for fun. Man what a massive failure it really is. At the airport, the train is half empty. So you can even get a seat, then it goes, of course, I was travelling, so had luguagge, I had to literally start walking towards the exit at Hua Mak, so I could be near the door in time to get off at Ramkhamhaeng, where I needed to walk several hundred meters to get to the road in order to be able to take a taxi to my place near thong Lor. Taking a taxi from the airport is quicker and door to door. Rest assured, I never took it from the airport ever again. 

 

Now, as to the planned stations, it will have some ridership in Bangkok, but not overly so. Of course more stops will make the trip longer, it also provides people with opportuneties to actually get on/off near where they are planning to go to ! Look at the proposed station list, we have 4 stops in the bangkok area, and just four more on the rest of the line, that comprises of 90% of it's distance. Not sure why you are so sure the ridership will be high on that part of the journey. Do you really believe that people that make 9000 baht a month, are overly concerned about a commute taking a little bit longer ? Or are you really believing many tourist will take the line ? I very much doubt it will be the case. Again, door to door travel is what tourists want. 

 

Just today it was made apparent that the BKK airport expansion plans have been put on hold, it's no conincidence this line goes all the way to U-Tapao, a two bit little airport that will now see expansion at the expense of the airport where such expansion is really needed. No wonder this project is being pushed through during the Junta, and that's where I will leave this. 

 

 

 

 

[sjaak327]

21 minutes ago, Vacuum said:

That's the whole idea. No one cares how people get to the airports.

Exactly. Nothing more to see here.

[Vacuum]

On 6/26/2019 at 1:16 AM, legend49 said:

The big difference is signing is easy, implementation well that's a big problem.

Implementation has nothing to do with this. A signing (including the the brown envelope) is all they want.

[sjaak327]

11 minutes ago, Father Fintan Stack said:

Of course it is being built to ferry people to and from Utapao.

 

The Navy owns Utapao.

 

The military are firmly in control of Thailand now.

 

They have ambitions of Utapao as a regional aviation hub.

 

It really does make perfect sense but for none of the reasons you illustrate.

Yep, and just today they have put the expansion of BKK airport on hold, it's is a downright scandal they are doing this. It has nothing to do with passenger convenience. Utapao is to small and to far out to be a regional aviation hub. They should expand BKK, as that is long overdue, and as far as I'm concerned they need to expand it in such a way, so they can close DMK. One of the worst airports in Asia. But of course, the army has a big pie of both DMK and Utapao, so that's also the reason for this line, and some people actually fall for it. 

[Lakegeneve]

17 minutes ago, sjaak327 said:

And the same company is going to exploit this line is it not ? Not a prospect that holds much confidence. The SRT is a company that still has to prove it can do something right. And let's get something right here, the reason the express line was scrapped intially was maintenance problems. 

 

Now, as to the planned stations, it will have some ridership in Bangkok, but not overly so. Of course more stops will make the trip longer, it also provides people with opportuneties to actually get on/off near where they are planning to go to ! Look at the proposed station list, we have 4 stops in the bangkok area, and just four more on the rest of the line, that comprises of 90% of it's distance. Not sure why you are so sure the ridership will be high on that part of the journey. Do you really believe that people that make 9000 baht a month, are overly concerned about a commute taking a little bit longer ? Or are you really believing many tourist will take the line ? I very much doubt it will be the case. Again, door to door travel is what tourists want. 

 

Just today it was made apparent that the BKK airport expansion plans have been put on hold, it's no conincidence this line goes all the way to U-Tapao, a two bit little airport that will now see expansion at the expense of the airport where such expansion is really needed. No wonder this project is being pushed through during the Junta, and that's where I will leave this. 

The SRT is not a company and it is not running the new line. It is a private consortium that will build and operate this line for 50 years, they have crunched the numbers and done their due diligence.

 

And the Express was scrapped, due to poor pax (as I said only a couple hundred a day) - please go and read the news reports at the time. The maintenance issues (actually a lack of spare parts) only reduced the number of services (they cut the Phaya Thai express in April and then finally stopped the Express in Sept 2014 when it was down to around 150 pax a day!!!).

 

You keep saying that the ARL failed in your view, and yet it has too many pax! Perhaps, try to look at the ARl as similar to the Piccadilly line to Heathrow. It is no suitable for your needs as neither is the Tube for some at Heathrow who either use the Express or take a taxi. You are complaining about your one bad ride and yet every day thousands of people use it to/from the airport so it works for them. Will it be suitable for all trips all the time, of course not. I take a taxi 30% of the time and the ARL the rest. Yet, every day over 75k people use the ARL. What you want is a dedicated Express Service which this project will actually give you.

 

The 4 stops in the BKK area include 2 airports and a 3rd is the new huge Bang Sue intercity terminal. All of those are transport hubs and patently required. For the section from BKK to Chonburi province, I don't know why you are focusing on factory workers who in any event live adjacent to their factory. Every day, there are hundreds of buses and vans trips between Bkk and Chonburi. Are they all going to move to a HSR line, of course not. But many will given the time savings. (There is a reason Korat and Pattaya bus companies have been opposing the HSR lines).

 

Lastly, the whole Navy owned U-Tapao airport issue and related vested interest promotion by the junta  is minor in my view. The airport capacity has been expanded from 800k to 3m pax. The Phase 3 expansion will see that grow to 15m capacity by 2022 if on time. The idea is that U-Tapao will relieve Swampy to an extent given that successive govts have delayed T2 & T3 . It is optimistic that U-Tapao will grow that much (along with the maintenance hub proposal), but as we have seen with all Thai Airports, pax keep growing. However, the last section of the HSR line between Pattaya and U-Tapao is neither here nor there in making this line work. 

 

The Junta stuffed up most major transport projects for the first 3 years by delaying everything, metros lines, new highways, airport expansion, SRT track duplication, these HSR lines. They had no coordinated approach and in typical military fashion don't understand how these processes work. Remember, the Eastern HSR line and ARL extension was going to happened under that previous 2 govts, but as I previously explained the current and previous govt both delayed these two projects with much prolonged reviews. (Had the Dems been elected in 2011, we'd already be using the Eastern HSR line to Rayong - no U-tapao - for the last couple of years).

[Lakegeneve]

11 minutes ago, sjaak327 said:

Yep, and just today they have put the expansion of BKK airport on hold, it's is a downright scandal they are doing this. It has nothing to do with passenger convenience. Utapao is to small and to far out to be a regional aviation hub. They should expand BKK, as that is long overdue, and as far as I'm concerned they need to expand it in such a way, so they can close DMK. One of the worst airports in Asia. But of course, the army has a big pie of both DMK and Utapao, so that's also the reason for this line, and some people actually fall for it. 

It is absurd to suggest that DMK should be closed given the growth of pax numbers in the last 10 years.

 

It was the decision of the Yingluck govt to move most LCCs there in March 2012! Most big cities like BKK have 2 airports and BKK is served well by 2 airports in different areas. (Look at London and Paris with 3 airports) The main issued with DMK has been connectivity due to the much delayed SRT Dark Red line and SRTET ARL extension. Even when Swampy finally has T2 and T3, DMK will still be needed. (There is even some discussion about building a 3rd airport out Nakhon Pathom way) AOT plans to open the old domestic terminal at DMK and build an APM between terminals.

[sjaak327]

Just now, Lakegeneve said:

It is absurd to suggest that DMK should be closed given the growth of pax numbers in the last 10 years.

 

It was the decision of the Yingluck govt to move most LCCs there in March 2012! Most big cities like BKK have 2 airports and BKK is served well by 2 airports in different areas. (Look at London and Paris with 3 airports) The main issued with DMK has been connectivity due to the much delayed SRT Dark Red line and SRTET ARL extension. Even when Swampy finally has T2 and T3, DMK will still be needed. (There is even some discussion about building a 3rd airport out Nakhon Pathom way) AOT plans to open the old domestic terminal at DMK and build an APM between terminals.

Oh please, there is no reason for Bangkok to have two airports, if they would have done this right from the beginning DMK would have never needed to be re-opened. Even now, the airport looks hopefully outdated, and the level of service at DMk leaves much to be desired. I as a customer avoid it whenever I can. 

 

Even now, it's main purpose is domestic travel, travel that could easily be handled by BKK if it was to be expanded. The vast majority of international arrivals to the BKK area, arrive at BKK, not DMK. So it makes perfect sense to have the vast marjority of connecting flights to other cities right at BKK, not all the way up north at DMK. 

 

You make it sound like this was planned, it wasn't, it was sheer incompetence that forced them to re-open DMK, nothing else. 

[sjaak327]

32 minutes ago, Lakegeneve said:

The SRT is not a company and it is not running the new line. It is a private consortium that will build and operate this line for 50 years, they have crunched the numbers and done their due diligence.

 

And the Express was scrapped, due to poor pax (as I said only a couple hundred a day) - please go and read the news reports at the time. The maintenance issues (actually a lack of spare parts) only reduced the number of services (they cut the Phaya Thai express in April and then finally stopped the Express in Sept 2014 when it was down to around 150 pax a day!!!).

 

You keep saying that the ARL failed in your view, and yet it has too many pax! Perhaps, try to look at the ARl as similar to the Piccadilly line to Heathrow. It is no suitable for your needs as neither is the Tube for some at Heathrow who either use the Express or take a taxi. You are complaining about your one bad ride and yet every day thousands of people use it to/from the airport so it works for them. Will it be suitable for all trips all the time, of course not. I take a taxi 30% of the time and the ARL the rest. Yet, every day over 75k people use the ARL. What you want is a dedicated Express Service which this project will actually give you.

 

The 4 stops in the BKK area include 2 airports and a 3rd is the new huge Bang Sue intercity terminal. All of those are transport hubs and patently required. For the section from BKK to Chonburi province, I don't know why you are focusing on factory workers who in any event live adjacent to their factory. Every day, there are hundreds of buses and vans trips between Bkk and Chonburi. Are they all going to move to a HSR line, of course not. But many will given the time savings. (There is a reason Korat and Pattaya bus companies have been opposing the HSR lines).

 

Lastly, the whole Navy owned U-Tapao airport issue and related vested interest promotion by the junta  is minor in my view. The airport capacity has been expanded from 800k to 3m pax. The Phase 3 expansion will see that grow to 15m capacity by 2022 if on time. The idea is that U-Tapao will relieve Swampy to an extent given that successive govts have delayed T2 & T3 . It is optimistic that U-Tapao will grow that much (along with the maintenance hub proposal), but as we have seen with all Thai Airports, pax keep growing. However, the last section of the HSR line between Pattaya and U-Tapao is neither here nor there in making this line work. 

 

The Junta stuffed up most major transport projects for the first 3 years by delaying everything, metros lines, new highways, airport expansion, SRT track duplication, these HSR lines. They had no coordinated approach and in typical military fashion don't understand how these processes work. Remember, the Eastern HSR line and ARL extension was going to happened under that previous 2 govts, but as I previously explained the current and previous govt both delayed these two projects with much prolonged reviews. (Had the Dems been elected in 2011, we'd already be using the Eastern HSR line to Rayong - no U-tapao - for the last couple of years).

Again, you seem to misunderstand my reasoning, the ARL (it is even the in the name) was primairily marketed as a way to get to and from the airport. And in that it has failed, certainly when all the touted services that they couldn't deliver on are considered. As a commuter line it has succeeded, albeit with a low frequency, just exactly why it looks so crowded. They still haven't reached the targetted ridership of 95.000, so even in ridership it isn't the huge success they claimed it would be. 

 

Again, I am attacking the line based on what was promised compared to what was actually delivered, nothing more and nothing less. I am not complaining about express service, I am complaining about the fact that the line is not capable of being used with big suitcases, which suprisingly is pretty likely when you call the line Airport Rail Link !

 

As to the reason why the express line was scrapped, at the time it was scrapped due to shortage of rolling stock, which in turn was due to maintenance problems mainly. I have read all the articles at the time, and Wikipedia still claims the same reason. If it was due to shortage of ridership, they maybe want to revisit this plan as well don't you think ? 

 

Now, pray tell, who exactly is going to use the eastern portion of this line past BKK ? As I am at a total loss as to who exactly will occupy the seats, and at what price ? It might be true that services out of say Ekkamai might have protested this line, but I fail to see vast amount of people using this in place of those services. And even if say 50% of the people actually do just that, I fail to see how they can ever even make break even, let alone pay of the huge investments. According to Wikipedia the ARL still operates at a loss, and that is inner Bangkok. 

 

 

 

 

[nong38]

There will be no high speed between DMK and BKK the distance is too short, a simple underground loop would have sufficed running at about 80kph more than does the job.

High speed here is relative, high speed to what is currently available, they should have made the line standard gauge and bought some of the UK's old HST sets 125mph more than enough for Thailand, comfy and reliable, far more comfy than their replacements.