TM 30 confusion

[DrJack54]

11 minutes ago, jrward42 said:

Thanks as always ubonjoe. Yeah, I meant for when we return. Only going to Hong Kong for a few days so I doubt we will be able to register in time. I guess a trip to CW might be in order.

 

I have not had to do an extension or 90 day report since this has come in in Bangkok. My next extension is in January and I will be going abroad again in September/October. I wonder if I could register and then do a TM30 after that trip and avoid any fine. 

Read some of the threads that have info regarding doing it by mail. May suit you better. The online registration sounds great but some folk having trouble setting it up. I only intend to file a tm30 if I have need to attend imm. CW. That will be just prior to my next extension. I will post it fill out form as possessor. Less paperwork.

[tgeezer]

42 minutes ago, Tanoshi said:

Apologies.

Section 4. “ House Master ” means any persons who is the chief possessor of a house , whether in the capacity of owner , tenant , or in any other capacity whatsoever , in accordance with the law on people act.

 

The word 'citizen' isn't mentioned, which I believe your confusing the term of anyway.

Not the correct forum, but if you researched it the word citizen is an acceptable translation of the Thai word which sounds like raatsadonand ‘registration’, sounds like tabian, is certainly there.  

Immigration has taken the step of including some foreigners who have bought condos and some people here on marriage grounds as heads of households and since the rules seem to be so inconsistently applied not made a good job of it.  

There is no reason to assume that sanctions applied to one person or many persons that the same sanction will be applied to us. 

In the case of the OP I don’t think the rule will be applied.  

 

 

 

[300sd]

7 hours ago, Grusa said:

If you have a Thai driving licence or a pink card, check in with one of those. Then you won't cross Immis' radar.

Yes I tried that in Bang Saray with drivers license. The small hotel demanded that I present my passport or they would not allow me to register....but in the past just the dl has worked for me...the squeeze is on.

[firefox999uk]

Same here....stopped in a hotel in Pattaya (Mikes) last night and they would only accept my passport,

they also took details of my extenstion dates.

Normally use Thai ID card....No passport no stay.

 

 

 

 

Have a nice day.

[Maestro]

12 hours ago, tgeezer said:

You have only quoted part of the law, there is more to the definition of a “House Owner”.  Literally “following law concerning registration of citizens, which begs the question, where does a non citizen stand? …

If a foreigner is not the possessor of the residence where he lives in the capacity of either owner or tenant he needs not be concerned about any other capacity whatsoever in accordance with the law on people act, also known as the Civil Registration Act, mentioned in the definition of house-master in in section 4 of the English translation of the Immigration Act used by the Immigration Bureau.

 

I have no access to an English translation of the Civil Registration Act. Anybody interested in what this law says about any other capacity whatsoever can look it up in the definition of house-master (เจ้าบ้าน) in section 4 of the Thai text of the law here:

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1ZsiihhtkjhLCf-j4kS04XUxOx9N-z5JN

[roath]

23 hours ago, Tanoshi said:

The TM28 is for registering a permanent change of address to Immigration.

The TM30 is a report of you arriving/returning at the registered address.

 

The problem with these forums is that a significant number of people have a limited amount of knowledge based on their own experience, and give advice based on that, and/or their own (limited) circumstance, which somebody else then reads and gets confused over because their experience doesn't match

 

Your assertion as to what the forms are for are incorrect on both counts as you fail to give any qualification to your bald statement of fact. What you say is correct ONLY within the context of an established expat with a registered address (by which I mean, and presumably you mean is an address registered in person with immigration for a TM30).

 

The title of the forms (according to the translation given by Thai immigration) are:

 

TM28 - Form for Aliens to Notify their Change of Address or Stay in a Province for more than 24 hours

TM30 - Notification Form for House Master, Owner or the Possessor of the Residence where Aliens have stayed

Equally, talking about a 'permanent address' is misleading as this term only applies to those with yellow books.

According to the law, you are required to file a TM28 when you stay somewhere for more than 24 hours. The fact that immigration currently does not enforce this does not mean that that is not what the law says or requires

 

Equally, every time you stay somewhere for more than 24 hours, the owner etc of the place where you stay is required to report your stay (on a TM30).

 

The fact is that the law and these forms were not really designed for foreigners living in Thailand on a permanent basis which is why there is such a massive mismatch between the law/forms and reality, and why there is so much confusion. 

 

 

 

[Tanoshi]

3 minutes ago, roath said:

Your assertion as to what the forms are for are incorrect on both counts as you fail to give any qualification to your bald statement of fact.

And your qualifications are what exactly!

I'm quoting from personal experience of living in 2 different Provinces at 4 different addresses and filing TM28's and TM30's accordingly.

 

22 minutes ago, roath said:

Equally, talking about a 'permanent address' is misleading as this term only applies to those with yellow books.

I use the term permanent address as the one registered with Immigration.

It has nothing to do with having a Yellow Tabien Baan, which are issued under the Civil Registration Act, not the Immigration Act.

 

28 minutes ago, roath said:

According to the law, you are required to file a TM28 when you stay somewhere for more than 24 hours. The fact that immigration currently does not enforce this does not mean that that is not what the law says or requires

I disagree and so does my IO.

Section 37. The provision of ( 3 ) and ( 4 ) shall not apply to any cases under Section 34 by any conditions as prescribed by the Director General.

I entered Thailand under clause 15 of section 34, therefore clause 3 and 4 of section 37, do not apply in my case according to my IO.

 

Filing a new TM28 only applies in my case under section 37 (2).

2. Shall stay at the place as indicated to the competent official. Where there is proper reason
that he cannot stay at the place as indicated to the competent official, he shall notify the competent official of the change in residence , within 24 hours from the time of removing to said place.

 

That according to my IO is the place registered to Immigration as your permanent place of residency, until such time as you change to another place of permanent residency, which you notify by TM28.

You are not required to file a new TM28 when staying at a temporary different address to the one registered with Immigration.

 

The TM30 is something entirely different.

[roath]

2 hours ago, Tanoshi said:

And your qualifications are what exactly!

I'm quoting from personal experience of living in 2 different Provinces at 4 different addresses and filing TM28's and TM30's accordingly.

 

I use the term permanent address as the one registered with Immigration.

It has nothing to do with having a Yellow Tabien Baan, which are issued under the Civil Registration Act, not the Immigration Act.

 

I disagree and so does my IO.

Section 37. The provision of ( 3 ) and ( 4 ) shall not apply to any cases under Section 34 by any conditions as prescribed by the Director General.

I entered Thailand under clause 15 of section 34, therefore clause 3 and 4 of section 37, do not apply in my case according to my IO.

 

Filing a new TM28 only applies in my case under section 37 (2).

2. Shall stay at the place as indicated to the competent official. Where there is proper reason
that he cannot stay at the place as indicated to the competent official, he shall notify the competent official of the change in residence , within 24 hours from the time of removing to said place.

 

That according to my IO is the place registered to Immigration as your permanent place of residency, until such time as you change to another place of permanent residency, which you notify by TM28.

You are not required to file a new TM28 when staying at a temporary different address to the one registered with Immigration.

 

The TM30 is something entirely different.

My qualifications are a law degree and several professional legal qualifications. You?

 

I fully understand what you are saying, but it remains the case that it is semantically and legally wrong (and unhelpful) to use the term permanent address for the address registered for the TM30 as it denotes something which isn't the case. One of the problems with people asking for and giving advice is the incorrect use of terminology which is why many people get confused. It is correct to say that the yellow books has nothing to do with the immigration act per se, but as a matter of fact and law, it is proof of registration of a permanent address with the Thai authorities. The registration of an address with immigration on a TM28/TM30 is neither de facto nor actual proof of 'permanent' address. It is respectfully (far) better to simply use the term the address registered with immigration for the TM30 which needs to be updated with a TM28 if you change address which also explains why the TM30 doesn't (or shouldn't) need to be updated if you stay somewhere else without changing your registered address with a TM28

 

Even if you had popped down to immigration to ask 'your' IO about the interpretation of the immigration act, respectfully, what is the case in one office is not necessarily the same in another as we all know so 'quoting' an unnamed and unreferenced IO is somewhat facile and disingenuous. In any event, if you read my post, I made clear that the law and the application of the law are not the same, so trying to argue that Immigration doesn't require x y and z isn't the point is, within the context of this discussion, pretty much irrelevant. I was pointing out that many people, including yourself, give misleading and subjective opinions based on a narrow understanding of the law, the rules and the general and specific application of the rules from one office to another. Your point about your post is based on your experience is simply proving my point. I am not saying that you are wrong about the requirements, simply about the terminology you are using as well as your assertion that simply because something was based on your personal experience means that that is the case throughout every office and in every situation which is clearly not the case. 

 

Equally quoting (or misquoting) specific sections of the immigration act with respect to your specific circumstances means that you should only be giving advice in circumstances where the OP matches your specific circumstance or else qualify your post by saying this is what happened to me at my immigration office etc. Quoting the provisions of (part of) the Immigration Act is unhelpful as a) it is not the entirety of the Act or the regulations applicable b) Thai law is written in Thai with 'unofficial' translations which sometimes can be helpful and c) in either case, Thai law is notoriously (and mostly deliberately) opaque which gives significant scope for interpretation and variation. There is of course always d) which is that many immigration offices simply apply the rules according to their own requirements, interpretation or simply how they want to.

 

The TM30 isn't entirely different to the TM28 as they both deal with registration of foreigners in Thailand. As I have said (twice now) how they are applied in practice isn't necessarily the same as the strict letter of the law and in practice the TM28 is subsumed into the TM30 for all intents and purposes save in specific situations (such as you have detailed).

 

 

 

[Tanoshi]

1 hour ago, roath said:

My qualifications are a law degree and several professional legal qualifications. You?

Thai law and familiarity of the Ministerial regulations, no, thought not!

 

1 hour ago, roath said:

I fully understand what you are saying, but it remains the case that it is semantically and legally wrong (and unhelpful) to use the term permanent address for the address registered for the TM30

Permanent registered address is the term used by my IO for the TM28 report, which is purely the responsibility of the foreigner.

I clearly stated the TM30 is something completely different.

[BWFC]

So I've done all this, logged in and made my report, only thing I'm concerned about is that I got no receipt after submitting, how do I know it's been processed? (I can search the submission and it shows).

Do I not need something to show when applying fory marriage visa after 45 days etc.?

Thanks

Firstly you need to register here: https://extranet.immigration.go.th/fn24online/ 
Select 'register' which will take you to the registration process.
 
Select 'Foreigner' on the first step.

 
Select 'Individual' in the second step.

 
At the bottom attach supporting documents.
Copy of Passport
Copy of Blue or Yellow Tabien Baan for the property.
Copy of Thai or Foreigners ID card.

 
After submitting you'll be sent an e-mail verification.
 
You then wait to be sent a user ID and password by email from your local IO.
On receipt of the above when trying to 'log in' you'll be requested to change your password.
To file further reports you can now 'log in', but will require the help of a Thai as the available options are predominately in Thai.

Sent from my SM-G9550 using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[treetops]

1 hour ago, BWFC said:

So I've done all this, logged in and made my report, only thing I'm concerned about is that I got no receipt after submitting, how do I know it's been processed? (I can search the submission and it shows).

Do I not need something to show when applying fory marriage visa after 45 days etc.?

Take and print off a screenshot of the search results showing the successful submisssion.

[roiethome]

How can a foreigner register on line?

In the box marked Position, there is only selection for owner, but I am the tenant not the owner.

[sussex]

8 minutes ago, roiethome said:

_{How can a foreigner register on line?}

_{In the box marked Position, there is only selection for owner, but I am the tenant not the owner.}

Have you started from the top? Fill in the form as a 'foreigner' and the options in the drop down menus will be different.

[Tanoshi]

20 minutes ago, roiethome said:

_{How can a foreigner register on line?}

_{In the box marked Position, there is only selection for owner, but I am the tenant not the owner.}

 

[JonoM]

I don't want to start another TM30 thread, so hope its OK for me to tag my qus onto this thread (as it's more TM30 confusion!)

 

I recently spent the night at a hotel, they took my passport details, so I presume they will report my stay. However, the hotel was in the same province as my home address and I was away from my home for less than 24 hours. Was I meant to report my stay away to immigration on the TM30? (too late now, but I'd like to know, so that I'm prepared for when I do my extension of stay!)

 

Cheers.

[Peterw42]

16 minutes ago, JonoM said:

I don't want to start another TM30 thread, so hope its OK for me to tag my qus onto this thread (as it's more TM30 confusion!)

 

I recently spent the night at a hotel, they took my passport details, so I presume they will report my stay. However, the hotel was in the same province as my home address and I was away from my home for less than 24 hours. Was I meant to report my stay away to immigration on the TM30? (too late now, but I'd like to know, so that I'm prepared for when I do my extension of stay!)

 

Cheers.

It would depend on the level of enforcement at your local office. If its one of the offices that wants to see a TM30 showing you back at your home address before they will do an extension, sometime between now and your extension you may need to do a report to kick the hotel report out of the system (of course, the day of the report is the day after you arrived back to your house)

 

 

Edited September 5, 2019 by Peterw42

[Seeall]

On 7/2/2019 at 11:04 AM, possum1931 said:

Not really, all the IOs change staff regularly, change their rules or their interpretation of them regularly.

So what any IO tells you one day could change the next.

They all have their interpretation of the rules, so you cannot win.

Depends if he is having a good day or not...

[treetops]

What would you do if you try to register and are given the response that your address is already registered (presumably under a previous owner)?