UK's Labour Party spars with BBC over charges of anti-Semitism

[Nigel Garvie]

12 hours ago, Jingthing said:

I don't really agree with your definition of Zionism. The ideology developed long before there was a literal nation of Israel. Bottom line is the history of the Jewish people is a specific thing and unique. Zionism as well is a specific ideology as a response to the oppression and persecution of Jews in the diaspora for thousands of years.

 

I also disagree with your simplistic labeling of antisemitism as racism. That is only one aspect of antisemitism.

 

To proactively clarify that of course Jews are not a race but indeed one aspect of antisemitism is racism because in that Jews are regarded as a race.

 

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I did not attempt to DEFINE Zionism. What I said was that Zionism was a form of Nationalism,  a view I still hold. Are there other aspects to it, yes undoubtedly.

 

Anti semitism is a form of racism (I will overlook your petty accusation of simplistic labelling). I totally agree that the separate race contention is hard to uphold in the light of current DNA evidence, but as you say it is how they are regarded that is the critical in this context. Are there other aspects to anti-semitism, arguably, but the unique word used elsewhere is hard to justify. Every form of racism is in some way "Unique" depending on who it is directed against.

 

The label anti semitic is now unavoidably part of common usage, but it is a stupid label. Semitic is a branch of  languages spoken mainly by Arabs (300m) and includes Berber and Hebrew. Presumably the Canaanites, Amalekites, and Midianites, all destroyed in acts of genocide according to instructions in the book of Numbers, also spoke Semitic languages.

[Morch]

40 minutes ago, Nigel Garvie said:

I did not attempt to DEFINE Zionism. What I said was that Zionism was a form of Nationalism,  a view I still hold. Are there other aspects to it, yes undoubtedly.

 

Anti semitism is a form of racism (I will overlook your petty accusation of simplistic labelling). I totally agree that the separate race contention is hard to uphold in the light of current DNA evidence, but as you say it is how they are regarded that is the critical in this context. Are there other aspects to anti-semitism, arguably, but the unique word used elsewhere is hard to justify. Every form of racism is in some way "Unique" depending on who it is directed against.

 

The label anti semitic is now unavoidably part of common usage, but it is a stupid label. Semitic is a branch of  languages spoken mainly by Arabs (300m) and includes Berber and Hebrew. Presumably the Canaanites, Amalekites, and Midianites, all destroyed in acts of genocide according to instructions in the book of Numbers, also spoke Semitic languages.

 

You claim no "attempt to define Zionism", then go right ahead and do  so.

As for the standard issue waffle about the meaning and such of the term antisemitism, that's all very nice. In effect, doubt there aren't many who aren't aware it is used in reference to Jews, rather than the broader "definition". Bringing up biblical "examples" is rather desperate.

[SheungWan]

Firstly, I have never said I want the demise of the 'only Jewish state'. This tread is about Labour and antisemitism, so very relevant. The issues you mentioned here about other countries i agree with. please start another thread up on them and i will contribute.
 
You do seem t be doing exactly what many in the Labour party and others in the world defending Israel and not allowing criticism, when they are indeed guilty of atrocities.
 
There are historians who are questioning the number of Holocaust dearths. Whether they are right or wrong is irrelevant. They are getting shouted down and their academic and personal names are being targeted. in the name of being anti-semantic, which is an absolute disgrace. It seems the norm now that if you have a different opinion you get labelled with racists, bigot and other terms.
 

And there is the problem. Labour Party Left finding themselves lined up on the same side as the old right-wing crew wanting to legitimise Holocaust denial. But actually more than this. Not just lined up, but in alliance. This is what is meant by the Left's 'taking sides'. Not a peep. Lay with dogs and you get fleas.

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[owl sees all]

The term anti-semite has gradually been foisted upon the world for some considerable time, but especially since WW11.

 

100 or so years ago, there was a political movement called Zionist. Then came Hitler and his ideology (movement funded by Jews and Catholics) and the rest, as they say, on that scene, at least, is history.

 

Since the Israelis were awarded the Palestinian land, after the war, by the Brits, the term anti-semitism has broadened considerably.

 

Now what is the flavour of the day chaps? 

 

Don't like the way the Israel state operates: anti-semite.

Don't like any organized religion, including Jewishness: anti-semite.

Don't like my Jewish BinL: anti-semite.

Refuse to let the Jewish guy next door, tie string to my fence: anti-semite.

Don't like Zionism; Christian or Jewish: anti-semite.

 

And now the narrative is that not liking Israel is somehow racist. What absolute cobblers!!

 

I have been a member of the Labour party for a long time (fully paid up) and any true cases of anti-Jews (anti-semitism), are, IMO, few and far between. The vast majority of these anti-semite cases that are being referred to are simply criticism of Israel.

 

Chucking Galloway* and Livingstone, and more recently Williamson, was a disgrace. Corbyn should have spoken out. It's time the UK Labour party developed a backbone.

 

* And wasn't he so right!!

[sanemax]

7 minutes ago, owl sees all said:

The term anti-semite has gradually been foisted upon the world for some considerable time, but especially since WW11.

 

100 or so years ago, there was a political movement called Zionist. Then came Hitler and his ideology (movement funded by Jews and Catholics) and the rest, as they say, on that scene, at least, is history.

 

Since the Israelis were awarded the Palestinian land, after the war, by the Brits, the term anti-semitism has broadened considerably.

 

Now what is the flavour of the day chaps? 

 

Don't like the way the Israel state operates: anti-semite.

Don't like any organized religion, including Jewishness: anti-semite.

Don't like my Jewish BinL: anti-semite.

Refuse to let the Jewish guy next door, tie string to my fence: anti-semite.

Don't like Zionism; Christian or Jewish: anti-semite.

 

And now the narrative is that not liking Israel is somehow racist. What absolute cobblers!!

 

I have been a member of the Labour party for a long time (fully paid up) and any true cases of anti-Jews (anti-semitism), are, IMO, few and far between. The vast majority of these anti-semite cases that are being referred to are simply criticism of Israel.

 

Chucking Galloway* and Livingstone, and more recently Williamson, was a disgrace. Corbyn should have spoken out. It's time the UK Labour party developed a backbone.

 

* And wasn't he so right!!

Just to correct you , it was the U.N that voted on an Israeli state .

George Galloway was expelled from the Labour party for telling UK soldiers fighting in Iraw to disobey orders , which is nothing to do with Israel .

Livingstone was sacked for suggesting Jews were responsible for the holocaust .

You, like Ken, suggest that Nazisn was funded by Jews and therefore Jews bought the holocaust upon themselves

All your examples of anti antisemitism are incorrect  , but they are a typical example of anti antisemitism itself   , trying to defend against claims of antisemitism by giving false examples .

   You are a fine example of old Labour anti semites who are in denial .

 

[Nigel Garvie]

2 hours ago, Morch said:

 

You claim no "attempt to define Zionism", then go right ahead and do  so.

As for the standard issue waffle about the meaning and such of the term antisemitism, that's all very nice. In effect, doubt there aren't many who aren't aware it is used in reference to Jews, rather than the broader "definition". Bringing up biblical "examples" is rather desperate.

The biblical stuff is not examples of anything, if you could read what I said properly you would, have realized that. Otherwise...Yawn.

[Nigel Garvie]

12 hours ago, dexterm said:

This is a smear campaign to discredit Corbyn who has spent his whole life fighting racism.

It only started because be has a chance of becoming PM and would be the first to be honest about Israel's brutal and unjust treatment of Palestinians.

The Zionists method is falsely to conflate justifiable criticism of Israel with anti Semitism. Throw enough mud and hope some of it sticks,  and yet no-one has so far stated a single word or act by Corbyn that is anti Semitic (that is hatred of Jews simply because someone is Jewish.)

Your last paragraph I agree with. 

 

Sadly the standard deflection nowadays has become to attack any criticism of any action of the Labour Party by claiming that it is part of a plot against Corbyn. This is paranoid conspiracy theory stuff, the LP would be better served by taking an open and honest look at the actual evidence. Corbyn is unquestionably anti racist, but attempts to turn him into some kind of saintly figure because of this are unsavory. Millions of people all over the world are anti racist, and have devoted their lives to this cause, what is so special or unusual about Corbyn in this. 

 

"yet no-one has so far stated a single word or act by Corbyn that is anti Semitic (that is hatred of Jews simply because someone is Jewish.)" I expect this is correct, but turn it around, in his denunciations of racism has Corbyn ever specifically highlighted the Jews as being one of the groups who are the main victims of racist abuse.

 

However enthusiastic a supporter of Corbyn and his colleagues anyone is (And they have my sympathy in that they have been grossly misrepresented in MSM) it has surely come the time to accept that there is no smoke without fire. The number of complaints of anti semitism in the LP has turned into a torrent. Are they ALL Blairite Corbyn haters, if so that would be extraordinary. It seems beyond doubt that the LP have been dragging their feet in dealing with these cases.

 

Could the LP kindly sort themselves out, stop shooting themselves in the foot,  and attempt to make themselves electable - balance of power would do fine. This is the worst most staggeringly inadequate, most venal and self serving Tory party in living memory, the country deserves better (Even Brexiteers says he generously!).

[Jingthing]

In my long experience pretty much any attempt to play dumb and act like antisemitism includes other "Semitic" peoples in addition to Jews comes from an antisemitic POV. I've yet to see even one exception. Why do people even try that? It's a dead 100 percent giveaway. 

[Nigel Garvie]

22 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

In my long experience pretty much any attempt to play dumb and act like antisemitism includes other "Semitic" peoples in addition to Jews comes from an antisemitic POV. I've yet to see even one exception. Why do people even try that? It's a dead 100 percent giveaway. 

Whether this relates to what I said or not, I neither know or care. However for the record what I said was that the label is dumb. That it has now a well established meaning in common usage I accepted, and we all have to do that with many other somewhat irrational terms in common use. 

 

I never noticed anyone referring to Semitic peoples, it is the language group that is Semitic. Neither did anyone suggest that anti semitism includes any other "Racial" group. Please try harder. 

[Morch]

1 hour ago, Nigel Garvie said:

The biblical stuff is not examples of anything, if you could read what I said properly you would, have realized that. Otherwise...Yawn.

 

I read what you posted. I don't think I was wrong. Then again, that's why I'm not into such references, too easy for meanings to be misconstrued.

[Nigel Garvie]

3 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

I read what you posted. I don't think I was wrong. Then again, that's why I'm not into such references, too easy for meanings to be misconstrued.

That's a fair point, probably unwise to include it, too easily misconstrued as you say.

[Morch]

58 minutes ago, Nigel Garvie said:

Your last paragraph I agree with. 

 

Sadly the standard deflection nowadays has become to attack any criticism of any action of the Labour Party by claiming that it is part of a plot against Corbyn. This is paranoid conspiracy theory stuff, the LP would be better served by taking an open and honest look at the actual evidence. Corbyn is unquestionably anti racist, but attempts to turn him into some kind of saintly figure because of this are unsavory. Millions of people all over the world are anti racist, and have devoted their lives to this cause, what is so special or unusual about Corbyn in this. 

 

"yet no-one has so far stated a single word or act by Corbyn that is anti Semitic (that is hatred of Jews simply because someone is Jewish.)" I expect this is correct, but turn it around, in his denunciations of racism has Corbyn ever specifically highlighted the Jews as being one of the groups who are the main victims of racist abuse.

 

However enthusiastic a supporter of Corbyn and his colleagues anyone is (And they have my sympathy in that they have been grossly misrepresented in MSM) it has surely come the time to accept that there is no smoke without fire. The number of complaints of anti semitism in the LP has turned into a torrent. Are they ALL Blairite Corbyn haters, if so that would be extraordinary. It seems beyond doubt that the LP have been dragging their feet in dealing with these cases.

 

Could the LP kindly sort themselves out, stop shooting themselves in the foot,  and attempt to make themselves electable - balance of power would do fine. This is the worst most staggeringly inadequate, most venal and self serving Tory party in living memory, the country deserves better (Even Brexiteers says he generously!).

 

Got to love the consistency. Just a few posts above it was said that Zionism is not easily defined, and that the term can mean different things to different people. You clicked "like" to the post, and then commented it is a "sound" point of view. On the post above you agree with a point of view which makes an essentially opposite claim. Go figure.

 

Other than that, yes to most of what you posted.

[petemoss]

On 7/11/2019 at 8:45 AM, rocketman777 said:

anti-Semitism,   which has been redefined by to suit the propaganda of the Zionist, is just a way of trying to undermine the Labor Party and Corbyn in particular.

 

Of the conservative party members approx 80% are signed up with Conservative Friends of Israel  (CFI)   group

 

Where as the equivalent  ' Labour Friends of Israel (LFI) ' group has a very low number( approx 20) of Labor members

 

This does not suit the Zionist agenda and limits the Israeli governments influence on Labor policy..

 

The documentary by Aljazeera  'The Lobby' exposed  the deliberate policy directed from the Israeli embassy and defacto the Israeli government to undermine the Labor party with antisemitism smear tactics

 

https://www.aljazeera.com/investigations/thelobby/

 

 

I watched the Panorama piece last night. They didn't quote one anti-Semitic view coming out of Corbyn's mouth.

 

The issue revolves around the attempt, globally, by Zionists to equate anti-Zionism with anti-Semitism.

 

This is a deliberate attempt to shut down critics of Israel's extreme right wing racist policies by labelling them racists. Sorry, but it just doesn't wash.

 

Several young Jewish activists were given the stage during the program, all claiming that they no longer felt welcome in the Labour party because they were Jewish. It was quite clear that they were no longer welcome in the Labour party, not because they were Jewish, but because they expressed strong pro Zionist views.

 

One of the Labour MP's that I admired the most was Gerald Kaufman, who was MP for Gorton, in Manchester for many years until his death a couple of years ago. A proud Jew and an ardent anti-Zionist.

 

Labour has always had a strong Jewish contingent within it's ranks but has also always campaigned strongly against the Zionist Israeli government who continue to displace and slaughter the indigenous population of Palestine.

 

Are Jews welcome in the Labour Party, of course. Are Zionist welcome in the Labour party? Absolutely not.

 

Don't fall for the cheap propaganda of Israel and it's partner the USA.

[DeaconJohn]

1 hour ago, petemoss said:

I watched the Panorama piece last night. They didn't quote one anti-Semitic view coming out of Corbyn's mouth.

 

The issue revolves around the attempt, globally, by Zionists to equate anti-Zionism with anti-Semitism.

 

This is a deliberate attempt to shut down critics of Israel's extreme right wing racist policies by labelling them racists. Sorry, but it just doesn't wash.

 

Several young Jewish activists were given the stage during the program, all claiming that they no longer felt welcome in the Labour party because they were Jewish. It was quite clear that they were no longer welcome in the Labour party, not because they were Jewish, but because they expressed strong pro Zionist views.

 

One of the Labour MP's that I admired the most was Gerald Kaufman, who was MP for Gorton, in Manchester for many years until his death a couple of years ago. A proud Jew and an ardent anti-Zionist.

 

Labour has always had a strong Jewish contingent within it's ranks but has also always campaigned strongly against the Zionist Israeli government who continue to displace and slaughter the indigenous population of Palestine.

 

Are Jews welcome in the Labour Party, of course. Are Zionist welcome in the Labour party? Absolutely not.

 

Don't fall for the cheap propaganda of Israel and it's partner the USA.

That's an excellent summary of the Panorama hatchet-job.

All the program proved was just how dishonest the British establishment and the Israel lobby have been in manufacturing this "Labour anti-Semitism crisis" for the past four years.

[Morch]

11 hours ago, petemoss said:

I watched the Panorama piece last night. They didn't quote one anti-Semitic view coming out of Corbyn's mouth.

 

The issue revolves around the attempt, globally, by Zionists to equate anti-Zionism with anti-Semitism.

 

This is a deliberate attempt to shut down critics of Israel's extreme right wing racist policies by labelling them racists. Sorry, but it just doesn't wash.

 

Several young Jewish activists were given the stage during the program, all claiming that they no longer felt welcome in the Labour party because they were Jewish. It was quite clear that they were no longer welcome in the Labour party, not because they were Jewish, but because they expressed strong pro Zionist views.

 

One of the Labour MP's that I admired the most was Gerald Kaufman, who was MP for Gorton, in Manchester for many years until his death a couple of years ago. A proud Jew and an ardent anti-Zionist.

 

Labour has always had a strong Jewish contingent within it's ranks but has also always campaigned strongly against the Zionist Israeli government who continue to displace and slaughter the indigenous population of Palestine.

 

Are Jews welcome in the Labour Party, of course. Are Zionist welcome in the Labour party? Absolutely not.

 

Don't fall for the cheap propaganda of Israel and it's partner the USA.

 

I think that, regarding Corbyn, the allegations are not so much he himself is an anti-Semite, but rather that under his leadership, such elements became more pronounceable within the party, and that his reaction to this was unsatisfactory. Turning it into a "Corbyn isn't" bit is, intentionally or not, missing the point.

 

At one point in your rant, you specify "Israel's extreme right wing", whereas in most of your post the reference offered is a more general one, Zionists. Whether you like to acknowledge it or not, not all Zionists (Israeli or otherwise) are among the "extreme right wing". Sort of gives away the game, there.

 

But thanks for demonstrating a point made earlier. Namely, that issues relating to Israel tend to be reacted to with greater vehemence than others. If one takes your description of party views seriously, one could wonder where are those strong, principled and consistent positions with regard to any number of other international issues.

 

And Spidey, I don't know how to break it to you, but you're not the Labour spokesman, not even in charge of the Welcoming Committee. In fact, you're not even all that informed. The MP membership of Labour Friends of Israel is circa 80. That's about a third of the Labour Party MP's. Guess they didn't get the memo, or that they don't think much of your pronouncements.

[petemoss]

3 hours ago, Morch said:

And Spidey, I don't know how to break it to you,

Sorry, you've lost me there, care to elaborate?

[Nigel Garvie]

15 hours ago, Morch said:

 

Got to love the consistency. Just a few posts above it was said that Zionism is not easily defined, and that the term can mean different things to different people. You clicked "like" to the post, and then commented it is a "sound" point of view. On the post above you agree with a point of view which makes an essentially opposite claim. Go figure.

 

Other than that, yes to most of what you posted.

I think we should avoid wasting our time splitting hairs over definitions of Zionism, or anything else for that matter. However, with some reluctance I will say this:- It is not helpful to assume that a point of view is a blanket one (Covers everything) unless the poster specifically says so. 

Yes I liked that post generally, and therefore indicated that. Does that have to mean that I agreed with everything in it........no. My post above is about the Labour Party's denial problems, it does not mention Zionism. I wish to discuss things in this forum in a free and open manner, I neither have the time or inclination to get involved in "He said, you said" post-mortems. Occasionally I pick up on the wrong comment or make other errors of that sort, I am not losing any sleep over it!  

[petemoss]

1 minute ago, Jingthing said:

Religious Jews are waiting the human Messiah, not Jesus or God. I have to agree all these faith dogmas share a certain ridiculousness. 

Same with Moslems. They also believe that he will be born from a man. Check the contents of your toilet bowl whenever you've been...you never know!

[GinBoy2]

On 7/11/2019 at 4:10 AM, vogie said:

Just because Corbyn supports Hamas that wants to destroy Israel, does that make him an anti-Semite.????

Well, thats an interesting question.

 

But why would he have praised a mural in London, which any High School student could have identified as anti-semitic?

 

I 'think' he claimed afterwards he hadn't looked at it closely enough.

 

....that man needs new glasses!

[vogie]

9 minutes ago, GinBoy2 said:

Well, thats an interesting question.

 

But why would he have praised a mural in London, which any High School student could have identified as anti-semitic?

 

I 'think' he claimed afterwards he hadn't looked at it closely enough.

 

....that man needs new glasses!

I was being sarcastic.

[petemoss]

3 minutes ago, GinBoy2 said:

But why would he have praised a mural in London, which any High School student could have identified as anti-semitic?

Good point. It was pointed out that the artist was trying to depict the people who control the World's money flow (bankers). He depicted real people who are giants in the banking world, who happen to be Jewish. They were caricatures of real people, and in doing so emphasised their features. If you look at the mural, not all of them are depicted with absurdly large noses, only the ones who have large noses in real life.

 

It's the same argument as the cartoon of Serena Williams, last year when she lost it on a tennis court. Racist or accurate caricature? Personally, I would give cartoonists the artistic licence or we'll end up going down the Charlie Hebdo route.

[GinBoy2]

2 minutes ago, vogie said:

I was being sarcastic.

Oh Gottcha, sorry my sarcasm detector ain't working so well until my second cup of coffee lol

[Orton Rd]

Strange that no Muslim Labour MPs were mentioned being investigated for their anti semitic views, they just went for the white racists in the labour party. Pointing the finger at Muslim ones would probably have led to a complaint about the BBC being 'racist'.

[petemoss]

2 minutes ago, Orton Rd said:

Strange that no Muslim Labour MPs were mentioned being investigated for their anti semitic views, they just went for the white racists in the labour party. Pointing the finger at Muslim ones would probably have led to a complaint about the BBC being 'racist'.

I don't recall any Labour MP being called out for his/her anti-Semitic views. Ken Livingstone wasn't an MP when he expressed his views that Jews had collaborated with the Nazi party before 1939. I don't think that he actually claimed that the hollocaust never happened, just that Jews had played a part in it coming about. Without good evidence for his claims, which I haven't seen, his remarks were clearly reprehensible and he was disciplined and expelled from the Labour Party.

 

Louise Ellerman made some vague insinuations but knowing her from her days as Leader of Lancashire County Council, I can assure you that she is a foul and disgusting person, who has only ever acted in accordance with her own self interest and not in the interests of her constituents and working people in general. She should have been expelled from the Labour Party a long time ago.

[Morch]

11 hours ago, petemoss said:

Sorry, you've lost me there, care to elaborate?

 

You're not sorry.

You're not lost.

There's nothing to elaborate.

You're not very good at this.

[Morch]

10 hours ago, Nigel Garvie said:

I think we should avoid wasting our time splitting hairs over definitions of Zionism, or anything else for that matter. However, with some reluctance I will say this:- It is not helpful to assume that a point of view is a blanket one (Covers everything) unless the poster specifically says so. 

Yes I liked that post generally, and therefore indicated that. Does that have to mean that I agreed with everything in it........no. My post above is about the Labour Party's denial problems, it does not mention Zionism. I wish to discuss things in this forum in a free and open manner, I neither have the time or inclination to get involved in "He said, you said" post-mortems. Occasionally I pick up on the wrong comment or make other errors of that sort, I am not losing any sleep over it!  

 

Do make up your mind. Some posts you go into definitions, other you're against such. In either version, you don't seem particularly informed, so much as opinionated. Granted, pretty much a Thaivisa standard.

 

[Morch]

3 hours ago, petemoss said:

Good point. It was pointed out that the artist was trying to depict the people who control the World's money flow (bankers). He depicted real people who are giants in the banking world, who happen to be Jewish. They were caricatures of real people, and in doing so emphasised their features. If you look at the mural, not all of them are depicted with absurdly large noses, only the ones who have large noses in real life.

 

It's the same argument as the cartoon of Serena Williams, last year when she lost it on a tennis court. Racist or accurate caricature? Personally, I would give cartoonists the artistic licence or we'll end up going down the Charlie Hebdo route.

 

I doubt even you truly believe this lame "explanation". Guess it's ok to accept certain losses, as in conceding the likes of Livingstone etc. who can't be denied outright - so long as Dear Leader is protected.

[Morch]

3 hours ago, petemoss said:

I don't recall any Labour MP being called out for his/her anti-Semitic views. Ken Livingstone wasn't an MP when he expressed his views that Jews had collaborated with the Nazi party before 1939. I don't think that he actually claimed that the hollocaust never happened, just that Jews had played a part in it coming about. Without good evidence for his claims, which I haven't seen, his remarks were clearly reprehensible and he was disciplined and expelled from the Labour Party.

 

Louise Ellerman made some vague insinuations but knowing her from her days as Leader of Lancashire County Council, I can assure you that she is a foul and disgusting person, who has only ever acted in accordance with her own self interest and not in the interests of her constituents and working people in general. She should have been expelled from the Labour Party a long time ago.

 

Naz Shah?

[Scott]

Off-topic reported and removed along with replies.  

 

[Nigel Garvie]

12 hours ago, Morch said:

 

Do make up your mind. Some posts you go into definitions, other you're against such. In either version, you don't seem particularly informed, so much as opinionated. Granted, pretty much a Thaivisa standard.

 

A poor deflective answer that completely misses the point of what I wrote. So you're a know it all, and I am merely opinionated. Going on the evidence I could just as well say you are living up to the Thaivisa standard and are not well informed but just opinionated. However I don't see fit to tar all the "Standard" TV posters with the same brush, as you do. But then again you're a know it all compared to them ............your majesty.