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BANGKOK 24 July 2019 01:35
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UK's Labour Party spars with BBC over charges of anti-Semitism

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On 7/11/2019 at 2:45 PM, rocketman777 said:

anti-Semitism,   which has been redefined by to suit the propaganda of the Zionist, is just a way of trying to undermine the Labor Party and Corbyn in particular.

 

Of the conservative party members approx 80% are signed up with Conservative Friends of Israel  (CFI)   group

 

Where as the equivalent  ' Labour Friends of Israel (LFI) ' group has a very low number( approx 20) of Labor members

 

This does not suit the Zionist agenda and limits the Israeli governments influence on Labor policy..

 

The documentary by Aljazeera  'The Lobby' exposed  the deliberate policy directed from the Israeli embassy and defacto the Israeli government to undermine the Labor party with antisemitism smear tactics

 

https://www.aljazeera.com/investigations/thelobby/

 

 

You do realize that Aljaezera's emblem is 'Allah' and the country paying for it has been widely accused of funding anti Israeli terrorism? Hardly an independent source for anything middle eastern.

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6 hours ago, rocketman777 said:

Hamas was created to resist the 1982 Israeli invasion of Lebanon and the massacre of Palestinian refuges in their camps.

Hamas is defined as a terrorist organization according to US/UK criteria.. That Hamas policy is to ' wipe the only Jewish country off the face of the earth' is western propaganda.

 

It is a pity there are not more politicians and national leaders like Corbyn that have the balls to speak out against such atrocities and support those who oppose them.

 

Terrorist or Freedom fighter is a matter of perspective.

 

 

Hamas was founded about 5 years later, and got nothing to do with Lebanon. You're probably confusing it with Hezbollah. Thanks for making the depth of your knowledge and grasp of detail clearer.

 

Hamas (in its entirety or as applied to its military wing) is defined as a terrorist organization by more countries than the USA and the UK - add Australia, New Zealand, Canada, the EU. Other countries have issues with Hamas without outright designating it as such (more applicable regionally).

 

As for the supposed "Western propaganda" regarding Hamas's goals - not really. All the more so when one skips the translations or English versions on offer. In Arabic, the messages are much clearer.

 

Your last line is just a slogan, and a daft one at that.

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3 hours ago, Nigel Garvie said:

I imagine from what you say, that the endless theft of Palestinian land by Israeli settlers is just hunky dorey with you. Has it occurred to you that the reason that many people do hold Israel to a higher standard than the Chinese in the Kashgar region for example, is that Israel claims to be a civilized western democracy. For my money the IDF is a terrorist organization, you don't like it, ok we have to agree to disagree. Calling it nonsense is I presume because you have no rational argument to support your views. Get used to the idea of State terrorism, most of the world has already. When I see Israeli troops deliberately operating a shoot to kill policy against teenagers with stones (Or journalists as it has happened), then I see evil.

 

I have no idea how you inferred that from my post, and I don't care much what you imagine - my posting history is out there, you're welcome to try and find a shred of anything supporting your nonsense assertion.

 

You can spin this all you like. None of the things you raise quite explain the level of attention this conflict generates, certainly not in relation to other, worse instances.

 

And that's a fine point about lack of "rational argument", especially seeing as yours amounts to "for my money". So nonsense on two counts now.

 

Even if your extreme view was to be accommodated, still doesn't account for the level of coverage or censure involved.

 

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4 hours ago, Jingthing said:

Usually but not always.

Yes there are some Jews that are anti Zionist.

Also ask 1000 Jews what is their definition of Zionist and you'll get 1000 different answers.

There are some really toxic flavors of Zionism and also some quite liberal ones but obviously even most liberal flavors of Zionism are unacceptable to Israel demonizers. 

So it's become a totally LOADED as a word. 

Because it really isn't fully black and white, the anti Zionist thing can be a very effective cover for Jew hating. 

I don't see an answer for that. It will obviously continue. 

Yes this is a sound take on it. As far as I understand it Zionism is a form of Nationalism, and there are many Jews who are not Zionists. As George Orwell pointed out (Forget the provocative line from Oscar Wilde- that was his style), there is a big difference between Patriotism and Nationalism.  Then add to that  Racism. So:-

1) Patriotism - entirely acceptable behavior like defending your country in a time of war, or supporting your country's football team. You could even extend this to a buy British program.

2) Nationalism - The belief that your country is (For some strange reason) superior to other countries. This is a dangerous belief and can lead to conflict, and was at the heart of the 3rd Reich.

3) Racism - The hatred of other races, tribes, clans, people of different colour, etc.

Criticising people on this basis just because they are different, is not acceptable.

Criticising people on the basis of what they do if you consider it to be wrong, is understandable. 

 

Therein lies the difficulty drawing a line between Anti semitism - a form of racism, and Zionism, a form of Nationalism.

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Yes this is a sound take on it. As far as I understand it Zionism is a form of Nationalism, and there are many Jews who are not Zionists. As George Orwell pointed out (Forget the provocative line from Oscar Wilde- that was his style), there is a big difference between Patriotism and Nationalism.  Then add to that  Racism. So:-

1) Patriotism - entirely acceptable behavior like defending your country in a time of war, or supporting your country's football team. You could even extend this to a buy British program.

2) Nationalism - The belief that your country is (For some strange reason) superior to other countries. This is a dangerous belief and can lead to conflict, and was at the heart of the 3rd Reich.

3) Racism - The hatred of other races, tribes, clans, people of different colour, etc.

Criticising people on this basis just because they are different, is not acceptable.

Criticising people on the basis of what they do if you consider it to be wrong, is understandable. 

 

Therein lies the difficulty drawing a line between Anti semitism - a form of racism, and Zionism, a form of Nationalism.

I don't really agree with your definition of Zionism. The ideology developed long before there was a literal nation of Israel. Bottom line is the history of the Jewish people is a specific thing and unique. Zionism as well is a specific ideology as a response to the oppression and persecution of Jews in the diaspora for thousands of years.

 

I also disagree with your simplistic labeling of antisemitism as racism. That is only one aspect of antisemitism.

 

To proactively clarify that of course Jews are not a race but indeed one aspect of antisemitism is racism because in that Jews are regarded as a race.

 

Sent from my Lenovo A7020a48 using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

 

 

 

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19 hours ago, sanemax said:

You can critisise Israel for whatever you like .

Although there are many crimes against humanity occurring on a regular basis that do not involve Israel .

Theres the Rohinga in Myanmar , where 600 000 people got chased out the country , killed and attacked .

Theres there Uigar in China , reports of millions being incarcerated .

Tibetans having their land taken from them .

Kurds  , Armenians , Marsh Arabs and various other peoples that have a worse treatment than the Palestinians .

Much worse things happening across the globe , than whats happening in Israel  .

If you single out Israel and ignore all the much worse things happening 

People will question why you focus on Israel .

Palestinians want the destruction of the Israeli state and replaced by an Islamic state .

If you also want to see Jewish Israel replaced by an Islamic state .

People may question why you would like to see the demise of the Worlds only Jewish state .

 

Firstly, I have never said I want the demise of the 'only Jewish state'. This tread is about Labour and antisemitism, so very relevant. The issues you mentioned here about other countries i agree with. please start another thread up on them and i will contribute.

 

You do seem t be doing exactly what many in the Labour party and others in the world defending Israel and not allowing criticism, when they are indeed guilty of atrocities.

 

There are historians who are questioning the number of Holocaust dearths. Whether they are right or wrong is irrelevant. They are getting shouted down and their academic and personal names are being targeted. in the name of being anti-semantic, which is an absolute disgrace. It seems the norm now that if you have a different opinion you get labelled with racists, bigot and other terms.

 

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55 minutes ago, dexterm said:

This is a smear campaign to discredit Corbyn who has spent his whole life fighting racism.

It only started because be has a chance of becoming PM and would be the first to be honest about Israel's brutal and unjust treatment of Palestinians.

The Zionists method is falsely to conflate justifiable criticism of Israel with anti Semitism. Throw enough mud and hope some of it sticks,  and yet no-one has so far stated a single word or act by Corbyn that is anti Semitic (that is hatred of Jews simply because someone is Jewish.)

He spent his whole life fighting the EU but now he wants to bend over and take one for the team. Lost any respect I had for the man. Another lying, self serving politician.

 

I agree about the Zionist bit though completely.

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@dexterm

 

Allegations about a "smear campaign" coming from a poster who's entire posting history is a smear campaign is kinda cute.

 

Seems rather obvious, and reasonable, that Corbyn the party leader and PM hopeful would face more public scrutiny than Corbyn the backbencher.

 

As far as I'm aware the criticism regarding Corbyn is not so much that he himself is antisemitic, but rather to do with his lame response to such issues within the party he leads.

 

Nice to see you've managed to sweep voices from inside the Labour party unsatisfied with Corbyn on this score.

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1 hour ago, Laughing Gravy said:

Firstly, I have never said I want the demise of the 'only Jewish state'. This tread is about Labour and antisemitism, so very relevant. The issues you mentioned here about other countries i agree with. please start another thread up on them and i will contribute.

 

You do seem t be doing exactly what many in the Labour party and others in the world defending Israel and not allowing criticism, when they are indeed guilty of atrocities.

 

There are historians who are questioning the number of Holocaust dearths. Whether they are right or wrong is irrelevant. They are getting shouted down and their academic and personal names are being targeted. in the name of being anti-semantic, which is an absolute disgrace. It seems the norm now that if you have a different opinion you get labelled with racists, bigot and other terms.

 

Well, I wasnt referring to you personally, I was speaking generally .

I wasnt speaking about whether you would or wouldnt contribute to a thread about the Rohinga persecution in Myanmar and their right to return  , my point is that there would be one headline newstory about Myanmar and minimal  replies , mention China and no one would mention the Tibetans/Uigars plight  , but ant mention Israel and the thread will soon turn into Israels right to exist and the usual "Israelis are Nazis" etc .

   Now the definition of racism/discrimination  is when you treat people differently due to their race /ethnicity/Religion  and its quite clear that Israel is treated differently due to their Religion .

  I do disagree that Israel are guilty of "atrocities" , IMO , Palestinians firing rockets from schools/hospitals  in Gaza full of children is an atrocity , when the sole reason is that they know Israel will fire back at the source of the rockets and the children will die .

  You can indeed criticise Israel  , no one has said that you cannot  , its just questionable as to why some people aways criticise Israel for minor things, yet ignore the huge other , real atrocities going on in the world .

   Its not the people who ask questions about the holocaust that are getting shouted down, its the ones who deny that it happened .

It should be open to discussion , but there are some people that deny it happened .

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