Problems at Savannakhet and Border July 2019 Report

[KhaoYai]

23 minutes ago, elviajero said:

If they qualify for Visa Exemption a backpacker doesn't, in most cases, need a Tourist Visa

Many stay in Thailand for months. They may move around the country but still stay within Thailand. Plus, my point is that people, not only backpackers, can and do, change their minds - this could be an own goal for Thailand.

Edited July 15, 2019 by KhaoYai

[KhaoYai]

52 minutes ago, ubonjoe said:

Two out of the 3 embassies using the e visa system were already restricting them to citizens and residents of the country where they are located.

In respect of tourist visas, would you say that's another 'bug in the system' Joe or do you think its deliberate to stop visa runners?

Edited July 15, 2019 by KhaoYai

[Thomas72]

On 7/13/2019 at 5:56 PM, acenase said:

I've never known anyone who could get a Thai drivers license on a tourist visa though. You need to show your passport with Non B visa

 

In November 2015 I had no problem getting a Thai drivers license and motorcycle licence on a 60 day Tourist visa. I also opened up an account at a local BKK branch on the same visa. Both the bank account and drivers licences required separate certificate of residencies from my embassy. The drivers license was valid for 2 years.

 

In November 2017 I renewed my drivers licenses. I was hoping to get 5 year licenses. Again, I was on a tourist visa. They told me because of the tourist visa, I could only renew for 2 more years. This renewal was in Udon Thani.

 

Coming up in November 2019 it will be time to renew again. This time I will be on a non-O ED visa. I hope they renew me for 5 years this time. We'll see.

 

I also own a car (used), motorcycle (new), and scooter (used). All 3 are in my name. All 3 were purchased in different provinces. All 3 were done on tourist visas. Each required a certificate of residency, but other than that... No hassles.

 

[elviajero]

1 hour ago, KhaoYai said:

Many stay in Thailand for months. They may move around the country but still stay within Thailand. Plus, my point is that people, not only backpackers, can and do, change their minds - this could be an own goal for Thailand.

I doubt they want individual backpackers — or anyone else — wandering around Thailand for months on end as ‘tourists’. Most typical backpackers travel to many countries spending a short time in each country, and VE is all they need for Thailand.

 

That said, if needed, SETV’s are still available in SE Asia for non-residents.

[Salerno]

16 hours ago, Thomas72 said:

I hope they renew me for 5 years this time.

Don't get your hopes up - you won't get it.

[OutofSiam]

Here we go again with this bologna.

 

It is not "misusing" a tourist visa to use it for extended periods of time.

 

If it was, then countries like Vietnam wouldn't issue 1-year tourist visas, the Philippines wouldn't let you stay 3 years on tourist visas without leaving, etc.

 

People travel like this in all countries that don't place restrictions on TV use, Thailand just happens to be a fairly popular and affordable one. It's also becoming more common with the increase in remote work arrangements, low cost airfare, etc.

 

There are also countries that restrict tourist visa use. This is clear, in writing, in their laws.

 

However, some in Thai immigration want to inhabit some sort of middle area, where they don't actually pass any law restricting visas, but they'll selectively enforce an unwritten rule whenever it suits them.

 

This is why people are (rightfully) complaining.

[OutofSiam]

I'd also point out that the majority of tourists, i.e. the ones who don't regularly check this forum, have no idea about any of this.

 

They are simply following the written rules, as people have been doing in Thailand for ages, until one day, "oops, you're going in detention and you'll have to pay for a flight back".

 

And THAT is exactly why they don't pass a new law, because it would scare away many people who are oblivious to the fact that there are any visa issues at all. The IOs would rather have full say-so over who gets in, while blaming it on you if they decide to reject you that day.

 

Obviously you should've known the new rules, that aren't in writing and half of the IOs don't enforce.

[elviajero]

1 hour ago, OutofSiam said:

Here we go again with this bologna.

 

It is not "misusing" a tourist visa to use it for extended periods of time.

Extending a visa is not misuse, but repeatedly entering as a ‘tourist’ when clearly living in the country is,

 

1 hour ago, OutofSiam said:

If it was, then countries like Vietnam wouldn't issue 1-year tourist visas, the Philippines wouldn't let you stay 3 years on tourist visas without leaving, etc.

The UK issue a 10 year visa. What do you reckon the chances of someone staying in the country for 10 years as s tourist?

 

[elviajero]

1 hour ago, OutofSiam said:

I'd also point out that the majority of tourists, i.e. the ones who don't regularly check this forum, have no idea about any of this.

The majority of ‘western’ visitors for tourism don’t use visas, they holiday in the country and leave.

 

It’s only visitors — claiming to be ‘tourists’ — that are effectively living in the country, or spending too long, that are targeted.

 

Typical tourists have nothing to worry about.

 

Quote

They are simply following the written rules, as people have been doing in Thailand for ages, until one day, "oops, you're going in detention and you'll have to pay for a flight back".

Are you aware of every written rule/order issued to border immigration officers?

 

Quote

And THAT is exactly why they don't pass a new law, because it would scare away many people who are oblivious to the fact that there are any visa issues at all. The IOs would rather have full say-so over who gets in, while blaming it on you if they decide to reject you that day.

 

Obviously you should've known the new rules, that aren't in writing and half of the IOs don't enforce.

They clearly aren’t setting strict limits (a new law) because they don’t have to.

Edited July 16, 2019 by elviajero

[Airbagwill]

Some of the problems in Savannakhet are bound to arise out of tightening of regs in Vientiane - e.g. the appointment thing........ Savannakhet used to be a quite backwater where those in th know got their visas.....but if you overload the consulate they will start to cite anything to get rid of customers.

[lkv]

11 minutes ago, Airbagwill said:

Some of the problems in Savannakhet are bound to arise out of tightening of regs in Vientiane - e.g. the appointment thing........ Savannakhet used to be a quite backwater where those in th know got their visas.....but if you overload the consulate they will start to cite anything to get rid of customers.

That's likely to happen, based on what history tells us about Penang for example, and current Immigration directions and trends.

[Leaver]

1 hour ago, Airbagwill said:

Some of the problems in Savannakhet are bound to arise out of tightening of regs in Vientiane - e.g. the appointment thing........ Savannakhet used to be a quite backwater where those in th know got their visas.....but if you overload the consulate they will start to cite anything to get rid of customers.

You are correct.  It's only a matter of time.

 

Certain consulates will become overwhelmed, so they start to cull the applicants.  

[KhaoYai]

22 hours ago, elviajero said:

That said, if needed, SETV’s are still available in SE Asia for non-residents.

I am aware of that but the point is that ALL visas will require residence when a particular Embassy/Consulate converts to the E-Visa system.

[elviajero]

1 hour ago, KhaoYai said:

I am aware of that but the point is that ALL visas will require residence when a particular Embassy/Consulate converts to the E-Visa system.

That’s possible, but not definite.

[OutofSiam]

12 hours ago, elviajero said:

The UK issue a 10 year visa. What do you reckon the chances of someone staying in the country for 10 years as s tourist?

 

The point is that almost no one staying in a country on a 1-year, 3-year, or 10-year "tourist" visa is literally and only a "tourist".

 

Even if they're not working, after a year or so, it's clear they're not just there to visit temples.

 

All countries know this. Some, like the EU, pass laws to restrict it. Some, like Vietnam, encourage it.

 

Your entire argument relies on completely removing all of that context so that you can pretend that tourist visas haven't been used this way for decades, both in and outside of Thailand, without problem.

[OutofSiam]

12 hours ago, elviajero said:

They clearly aren’t setting strict limits (a new law) because they don’t have to.

Right, they don't have to tell us the rules, but we have to follow the rules -- which we haven't been told. Makes a lot of sense.

[elviajero]

7 hours ago, OutofSiam said:

The point is that almost no one staying in a country on a 1-year, 3-year, or 10-year "tourist" visa is literally and only a "tourist".

No they aren’t.

 

They are a VISITOR. When you visit Thailand you are given permission to stay for a specific reason. Tourism is just one reason. No one would still be visiting for tourism after 1 year.

 

7 hours ago, OutofSiam said:

Even if they're not working, after a year or so, it's clear they're not just there to visit temples.

 

All countries know this. Some, like the EU, pass laws to restrict it. Some, like Vietnam, encourage it.

Countries like Vietnam “encourage it” because they get a fraction of the number of visitors that Thailand does.

 

Thailand became/is so popular that immigration are under increasing pressure to control numbers.

 

7 hours ago, OutofSiam said:

Your entire argument relies on completely removing all of that context so that you can pretend that tourist visas haven't been used this way for decades, both in and outside of Thailand, without problem.

You entire argument is flawed in believing we are all “tourists”.

[KhaoYai]

15 hours ago, elviajero said:

That’s possible, but not definite.

I hope you are correct - some have said there are bugs in the system.

 

For now, at least at the Thai Embassy in London, its a reality.

[Denri]

Hi all! Student visa of my wife ends in August. Is's third ED visa row. How do you think, what is the probability of getting a tourist visa after it last time? (we leave Thailand in November). Thanks!

[elviajero]

1 hour ago, KhaoYai said:

I hope you are correct - some have said there are bugs in the system.

 

For now, at least at the Thai Embassy in London, its a reality.

It was started in Singapore last year and they don’t insist on residency for an SETV. So insisting on residence is not because of the new system, but down to the consuls  choice.

 

Whether residency is set to become a condition across the world is unknown, but I wouldn’t be surprised if it does.

[KhaoYai]

2 hours ago, elviajero said:

It was started in Singapore last year and they don’t insist on residency for an SETV. So insisting on residence is not because of the new system, but down to the consuls  choice.

That's interesting, when I spoke to the Thai Embassy in London they told me they had no control over the system. That conversation was regarding a different subject but the girl I spoke to was adamant that they have no control - even intimating that applications are dealt with centrally as if London don't have any part.

 

So if Singapore don't insist on residency as you say, the girl was at the least, incorrect.

[lkv]

22 minutes ago, KhaoYai said:

That's interesting, when I spoke to the Thai Embassy in London they told me they had no control over the system. That conversation was regarding a different subject but the girl I spoke to was adamant that they have no control - even intimating that applications are dealt with centrally as if London don't have any part.

 

So if Singapore don't insist on residency as you say, the girl was at the least, incorrect.

They can insist on residency, regardless of whether it's online or not.

 

Some countries have insisted on residency for years now, in Europe and Asia. Did anybody get a Thai tourist visa in Japan without residing and working in Japan, for example?

Edited July 17, 2019 by lkv

[ubonjoe]

3 hours ago, elviajero said:

It was started in Singapore last year and they don’t insist on residency for an SETV. So insisting on residence is not because of the new system, but down to the consuls  choice.

Singapore does not have the same system as the one now being used by 3 embassies. The two are completely different.

Edit: They started using it over 2 years ago.

"From 1 February 2017, the Royal Thai Embassy, Singapore will introduce Electronic Visa Application (EVA), where visa applicants will be able to fill out application forms, submit and check application status online."

Source:  http://www.thaiembassy.sg/visa-matters-consular

[KhaoYai]

22 hours ago, lkv said:

They can insist on residency, regardless of whether it's online or not.

I'm fully aware of that. What we have been discussing is the likelihood of all Embassies and Consulates requiring residence when they change over to the E-Visa system. That would cause problems for a lot of people - visa runners and genuine visitors.

 

Some people set off on 'World Tours' with nothing much planned, if they need a visa for Thailand they may be required to return to their home country and that's unlikely to happen. There are plenty more different types of travellers that could be affected.

 

Perhaps the worst example of problems caused by the E-Visa system is that of ex pats who have a wife in Thailand and work somewhere other than their home country - as discussed in another thread.  For the moment they can obtain visas (usually multi o's) from places like Savannakhet but if and when that point of entry changes to E-Visa and requires residence, they won't be able to.  Worse still is that if they do return to their home country, as things stand with the current E-Visa system, they will have to return home every trip because another problem is that multi entry O visas are not available on E-Visa.

 

Thailand may be wishing to modernise its visa system and prevent people effectively living there without the correct visa (as per the recent reports of denials) but in doing so it seems to be causing problems for genuine visitors.

 

Its pretty easy to tell a 'visa runner' from a genuine visitor - simply by checking their history. I hope that these problems are, as has been suggested, just bugs in the system.

Edited July 18, 2019 by KhaoYai

[Lovethailandelite]

40 minutes ago, KhaoYai said:

I'm fully aware of that. What we have been discussing is the likelihood of all Embassies and Consulates requiring residence when they change over to the E-Visa system. That would cause problems for a lot of people - visa runners and genuine visitors.

 

Some people set off on 'World Tours' with nothing much planned, if they need a visa for Thailand they may be required to return to their home country and that's unlikely to happen. There are plenty more different types of travellers that could be affected.

 

Perhaps the worst example of problems caused by the E-Visa system is that of ex pats who have a wife in Thailand and work somewhere other than their home country - as discussed in another thread.  For the moment they can obtain visas (usually multi o's) from places like Savannakhet but if and when that point of entry changes to E-Visa and requires residence, they won't be able to.  Worse still is that if they do return to their home country, as things stand with the current E-Visa system, they will have to return home every trip because another problem is that multi entry O visas are not available on E-Visa.

 

Thailand may be wishing to modernise its visa system and prevent people effectively living there without the correct visa (as per the recent reports of denials) but in doing so it seems to be causing problems for genuine visitors.

 

Its pretty easy to tell a 'visa runner' from a genuine visitor - simply by checking their history. I hope that these problems are, as has been suggested, just bugs in the system.

There are no 'Bugs' in the E visa system. Once a country switches to using E visa, the default position is the country you apply in requires residency in order to issue a visa. Hence, in the application is a section for uploading your residency details ( If you don't hold a passport for the country your applying in.) If you do a hold a passport for that country, you leave the residency section blank. Your passport upload and when you told the application which passport you hold is enough.
The system also simply does not issue ME Non O visas apart from 0-A and O-X. Again, it isn't a bug in the system.
Embassy's have no input on what visas they can or cannot issue using E visa and cannot override the Residency requirements. The system is locked out to them. The only access they have is with the printed bar code that you print off during your application process. And your correct in that once a country switches to E visa, you would need to use a country not using E visa to apply for a visa or return to your country of passport and collect a visa there using E visa application.

[KhaoYai]

2 hours ago, Lovethailandelite said:

There are no 'Bugs' in the E visa system

By 'bugs' I am also referring to design.  I believe that it was Ubonjoe who said that the E-Visa system was designed for use in China and fitted the requirements for that country but there is a possibility that it might be changed when its in more general use.

[KhaoYai]

2 hours ago, Lovethailandelite said:

And your correct in that once a country switches to E visa, you would need to use a country not using E visa to apply for a visa or return to your country of passport and collect a visa there using E visa application.

Yes, I am aware that is correct - that's why I wrote it. The point is that it will cause some pretty severe, almost impossible, problems for some people.

 

The UK has the same policy of applicants having to return to their country of residence to apply for a visa (at least for a settlement visa you do, I believe the UK allows visitors visas to be applied for from any country where legal entrance has been made) and I guess many countries are the same. I can't understand why this is - why must you return to your home country or country of residence to apply for a visa? Anyone know the reasoning behind it?

Edited July 18, 2019 by KhaoYai

[Lovethailandelite]

44 minutes ago, KhaoYai said:

By 'bugs' I am also referring to design.  I believe that it was Ubonjoe who said that the E-Visa system was designed for use in China and fitted the requirements for that country but there is a possibility that it might be changed when its in more general use.

The system wasn't designed for China. China just happened to be the first country to use the system. The system was designed for the world wide use of Thai Embassy's and consulates to issue visas. No matter which gateway you enter from or from which Embassy, you enter the same online database which is in Bangkok. Nothing will be changed regarding residency or the issuing of visas. The system you see you now is the system you will get.

Edited July 18, 2019 by Lovethailandelite

[Lovethailandelite]

6 minutes ago, KhaoYai said:

Yes, I am aware that is correct - that's why I wrote it. The point is that it will cause some pretty severe, almost impossible, problems for some people.

 

The UK has the same policy of applicants having to return to their country of residence to apply for a visa (at least for a settlement visa you do, I believe the UK allows visitors visas to be applied for from any country where legal entrance has been made) and I guess many if not most countries are the same. I can't understand why this is - why must you return to your home country or country of residence to apply for a visa? Anyone know the reasoning behind it?

Tourists can apply for single or multiple entry visas before arriving in Thailand and extend them if required. Other visa applicants can get a single entry Non O visa before arriving in Thailand and if they wish to stay longer, apply for a yearly extension, such as they are supposed to be doing now. The only people it causes hardship too are those using visas for a purpose they were never designed for.
And no, only UK and Irish citizens can apply in the UK for Thai visas unless those other citizens have residency or a long stay visa to remain in the UK. It is all nicely laid out and informed on the London Thai embassy website and on the UK Thai consulate information pages.
You would need to ask the MFA and Thai immigration for the reasoning.

[KhaoYai]

5 minutes ago, Lovethailandelite said:

The only people it causes hardship too are those using visas for a purpose they were never designed for.

Really? So what is the purpose of a 12 month Multi Entry Non Immigrant O Visa (based upon marriage to a Thai citizen)?