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Turkey begins receiving Russian missiles in challenge to U.S. and NATO


rooster59

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1 hour ago, Credo said:

And I wonder whose fault that is?

 

The same person who is responsible for the Holly Alliance no longer being relevant? NATO was a military alliance formed against an entity that ceased to exist nearly 30 years ago. It's "purpose" has been completely fulfilled and all it is now is a bunch of bureaucrats looking to find work to justify their paychecks. 

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9 hours ago, ChouDoufu said:

would that not be a great loss for nato?

doesn't turkey have the largest military in nato, excluding the usa?  i believe they maintain the equivalent of germany and france combined.

the us would also lose their airbase, intel station, and nuke depot at incirlic. 

i imagine putin would love parking his aircraft at his new turkish airbase, and have a little more input over which warships turkey allows through the bosphorus.

 

The number of military personnel is currently not the most relevant indicator. The Turkish army cannot be compared to the French or British army.

Having said that , I agree that Turkey is an essential component of the US presence in the ME, the other one having not been really useful up to now.

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10 hours ago, Dumbastheycome said:

Why is it that you so predictability react to opinion based on valid interpretation that you have no counter to with bogus claims of irrelevance? That background supporting factors in interpretation of events that are in opposition to your function does not detract validity of opinion. Perpetual demonstration of sad face only indicates personal disappointment. Not more. 

 

This convulsed complaint still doesn't help to make the original convulsed rant relate to the topic at hand either. 

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8 hours ago, usviphotography said:

The same person who is responsible for the Holly Alliance no longer being relevant? NATO was a military alliance formed against an entity that ceased to exist nearly 30 years ago. It's "purpose" has been completely fulfilled and all it is now is a bunch of bureaucrats looking to find work to justify their paychecks. 

 

Putin would have clicked "like" to this post.

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6 hours ago, candide said:

The number of military personnel is currently not the most relevant indicator. The Turkish army cannot be compared to the French or British army.

Having said that , I agree that Turkey is an essential component of the US presence in the ME, the other one having not been really useful up to now.

Turkey is a strategic NATO member.

The reasons are geographic: Turkey controls the Bosphorus, it has a border with Iran, it is close to Russia and missiles launched from Turkey could strike with very little forewarning. That's why Turkey has been a strategic thorn in Russia's side for decades.

 

In November 2015, after the Russian plane was shot down, Russia-Turkey relations were at the worst. Yet just a few months later, and despite of the assassination of the Russian Ambassador in Turkey in dec 2016, relations were mended and Erdogan became Putin's buddy...

 

What had happened? the attempted coup of course. It seems there was some truth to the rumor of Russia having a hand in the matter.

I would bet Russia's services had infiltrated the Turkish military and were informed of the coup plans. The cover-up story of a Russian electronic surveillance unit based in Syria is a classic of signals intelligence covering up for illegal agents.

 

I think that is where the Obama administration missed an opportunity.

My guess is that the USA had the same intelligence as the Russians had, but for some reason decided to do nothing. Politically, the inaction was understandable - strategically however, it was the worst option.

 

Hindsight is 20/20 - clearly the USA should have opted to either support Erdogan (and fortified that little islamistic prick's power and backed his terrorist operations, bully tactics and persecution of Kurds) or helped to push him out by making sure the coup succeeds.

Russia on the other hand saw an opportunity and seized it. They informed Erdogan of the imminent start of coup operations.

 

Now it's too late, Erdogan is Putin's best friend.

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13 minutes ago, manarak said:

Turkey is a strategic NATO member.

The reasons are geographic: Turkey controls the Bosphorus, it has a border with Iran, it is close to Russia and missiles launched from Turkey could strike with very little forewarning. That's why Turkey has been a strategic thorn in Russia's side for decades.

 

In November 2015, after the Russian plane was shot down, Russia-Turkey relations were at the worst. Yet just a few months later, and despite of the assassination of the Russian Ambassador in Turkey in dec 2016, relations were mended and Erdogan became Putin's buddy...

 

What had happened? the attempted coup of course. It seems there was some truth to the rumor of Russia having a hand in the matter.

I would bet Russia's services had infiltrated the Turkish military and were informed of the coup plans. The cover-up story of a Russian electronic surveillance unit based in Syria is a classic of signals intelligence covering up for illegal agents.

 

I think that is where the Obama administration missed an opportunity.

My guess is that the USA had the same intelligence as the Russians had, but for some reason decided to do nothing. Politically, the inaction was understandable - strategically however, it was the worst option.

 

Hindsight is 20/20 - clearly the USA should have opted to either support Erdogan (and fortified that little islamistic prick's power and backed his terrorist operations, bully tactics and persecution of Kurds) or helped to push him out by making sure the coup succeeds.

Russia on the other hand saw an opportunity and seized it. They informed Erdogan of the imminent start of coup operations.

 

Now it's too late, Erdogan is Putin's best friend.

 

Without getting into the offered scenario, the last line - "Erdogan is Putin's best friend" - may be true for now. But if there's anything that can be said about Erdogan and foreign relations or relations with foreign leaders, is that such things never last long. During his time in office he managed to go from best buddy to outright hostile with several European and Middle Eastern countries. I think Russia (or rather, Putin) might be better suited to handle him, up to a point.

 

 

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2 hours ago, Morch said:

 

Without getting into the offered scenario, the last line - "Erdogan is Putin's best friend" - may be true for now. But if there's anything that can be said about Erdogan and foreign relations or relations with foreign leaders, is that such things never last long. During his time in office he managed to go from best buddy to outright hostile with several European and Middle Eastern countries. I think Russia (or rather, Putin) might be better suited to handle him, up to a point.

 

 

Erdogan is bad news.

Next thing he does could be to partner up with Iran in their nuclear program so that Turkey finally gets its own nuclear bombs instead of having to ask NATO for permission before being able to use the 40 they have stored at Incirlik.

 

he also pushes this sort of insidious poison:

https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2019/06/turkey-builds-mosques-abroad-global-soft-power/590449/

 

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21 minutes ago, manarak said:

Erdogan is bad news.

Next thing he does could be to partner up with Iran in their nuclear program so that Turkey finally gets its own nuclear bombs instead of having to ask NATO for permission before being able to use the 40 they have stored at Incirlik.

 

That's kind of an interesting point. The Turks and Iranians don't particularly like each other, Erdogan in particular being something of a Sunni Islamist. Still, it's an intriguing thought. Maybe a Russian, Turkish, Iranian axis. Probably there's some obstacle I'm missing but thanks for the idea.

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4 minutes ago, bristolboy said:

That's kind of an interesting point. The Turks and Iranians don't particularly like each other, Erdogan in particular being something of a Sunni Islamist. Still, it's an intriguing thought. Maybe a Russian, Turkish, Iranian axis. Probably there's some obstacle I'm missing but thanks for the idea. 

then you might be interested that "Die Welt" reported that Hakan Fidan, Erdogan's chief spook, gave CIA intelligence to Iran.

 

and it's amazing what's already available on wikipedia:

Quote

Iran was quick to condemn the 2016 Turkish coup d'état attempt, leading to improved relations between the two countries.[21]

From January 2017 onward, Turkey has collaborated closely with Iran and Russia in the Astana talks to resolve the Syrian Civil War.[22]

Turkey's relations with Iran further improved during the 2017 Qatar diplomatic crisis, where both countries backed Qatar in a dispute with Saudi Arabia and the United Arab Emirates.[23]

Turkey condemned the 2017–18 Iranian protests, accusing the United States and Israel of interference in internal Iranian affairs.[24][25]

Iran and Turkey also backed one another in their respective disputes with the United States in summer 2018, with Turkey publicly opposing U.S. sanctions on Iran after U.S. withdrawal from the Iran nuclear deal,[26] and Iran condemning U.S. sanctions on Turkey over the detention of Andrew Brunson.[27]

In February 2019, Turkey refused an invitation by the United States to attend a summit in Warsaw on countering Iranian influence in the Middle East, on the grounds that it "targets one country".[28]

Collaboration against terrorism

Turkey and Iran vowed to collaborate in their fight against terrorists in Iraq, as thousands of Turkish troops pressed ahead with an air and ground offensive against the militants in northern Iraq. Iranian Foreign Minister Ali Akbar Salehi claimed that the deaths of Turkish soldiers might have been avoided if the United States had informed Turkey that the terrorists were infiltrating into Turkey with heavy weaponry. The U.S. shares intelligence from surveillance drones with Turkey about movement of the PKK along the border.

The Turkish government shut down a probe that revealed connections between the Iranian Revolutionary Guard and the highest levels of the Turkish government.[29]

 

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2 minutes ago, manarak said:

then you might be interested that "Die Welt" reported that Hakan Fidan, Erdogan's chief spook, gave CIA intelligence to Iran.

 

and it's amazing what's already available on wikipedia:

 

I did know about the Qatar thing. But I thought that was more tied to the Muslim Brotherhood situation in Egypt. But much of the rest I was clueless about. Thanks.

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13 minutes ago, bristolboy said:

I did know about the Qatar thing. But I thought that was more tied to the Muslim Brotherhood situation in Egypt. But much of the rest I was clueless about. Thanks.

there is also a trove of "reality-check"-grade stuff related to the Grey Wolves (terrorist organization) and Erdogan's involvement in it, including links to the Erawan Shrine bombing in Bangkok.

 

I know I had written about a post about the Turkish intelligence agency trafficking arms with the help of a Grey Wolves commander, but I cannot find my post anymore. It has vanished.

 

 

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44 minutes ago, manarak said:

there is also a trove of "reality-check"-grade stuff related to the Grey Wolves (terrorist organization) and Erdogan's involvement in it, including links to the Erawan Shrine bombing in Bangkok.

 

I know I had written about a post about the Turkish intelligence agency trafficking arms with the help of a Grey Wolves commander, but I cannot find my post anymore. It has vanished.

 

 

The one major objection to this is that Iran and Turkey were definitely on opposite sides of the Syrian civil war. Certainly at the beginning. Although, maybe, as Erdogan finally understand that the side he backed was losing, he decided to somewhat shift allegiances.

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1 hour ago, bristolboy said:

The one major objection to this is that Iran and Turkey were definitely on opposite sides of the Syrian civil war. Certainly at the beginning. Although, maybe, as Erdogan finally understand that the side he backed was losing, he decided to somewhat shift allegiances.

yes - but the part I said about the Grey Wolves wasn't intended to be further proof for involvement with Iran, I simply mentioned it as additional involvement or Erdogan with bad people.

 

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7 hours ago, manarak said:

Erdogan is bad news.

Next thing he does could be to partner up with Iran in their nuclear program so that Turkey finally gets its own nuclear bombs instead of having to ask NATO for permission before being able to use the 40 they have stored at Incirlik.

 

he also pushes this sort of insidious poison:

https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2019/06/turkey-builds-mosques-abroad-global-soft-power/590449/

 

 

I doubt there is any realistic chance of Erdogan's Turkey teaming up with Iran, with regard to development and production of nuclear weapons. Other than Turkey being even more vulnerable to sanctions, there's the standing issue of relations between the countries - alternating between competition and mutual interests, even without Erdogan's previously mentioned volatile nature.

 

Edit: not the the "Grey Wolves" thing is much no topic, exactly, but in reference to the above - their position would not be supportive of either Iran or Russia.

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3 hours ago, Morch said:

 

I doubt there is any realistic chance of Erdogan's Turkey teaming up with Iran, with regard to development and production of nuclear weapons. Other than Turkey being even more vulnerable to sanctions, there's the standing issue of relations between the countries - alternating between competition and mutual interests, even without Erdogan's previously mentioned volatile nature.

 

Edit: not the the "Grey Wolves" thing is much no topic, exactly, but in reference to the above - their position would not be supportive of either Iran or Russia.

yes, it wasn't a serious theory ???? more of a hyperbole of how big a thing he could do to stick it more to the West.

 

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