Looking for work in BKK. Is it realistic?

[gppower]

I have been looking for a job in BKK for a while now. I have been doing that from Europe by answering job adverts on JobDB mostly, LinkedIn and other career sites. My applications are barely answered. 

I am 50, employed in the IT industry, masters degree, always being employed.

I believe that the job market is more lively in Asia than in Europe and I think BKK is a sizable business hub. I know there are quotas of foreign workers that companies must respect, but I understand there is a big expat worker community in BKK. Nevertheless, so far my attempts have been unsuccessful. I am trying to understand the reasons.

 

I believe the main disadvantage in respect of other applicants is that I am not already living in Bangkok, despite the fact that, these days, preliminary interviews can be done through a video chat. Plus, an expat already on the ground needs a work permit from the hiring company, anyway.

 

Of course, I do believe my skills fit the requirements of the jobs I apply for.

 

Now, I am wondering whether it is realistic to think I can eventually find a job. I would appreciate any suggestions from people who live and work in Bangkok, as well as tips on routes I haven’t yet explored.

[madmen]

I will be surprised if you even get a reply to your emails.  You need to be here, there is no other way

[Oxx]

I don't see why any Thai company would be interested in you.  You don't (I presume) speak the language, are more expensive to hire, and would produce lots of extra paperwork.

 

As for foreign companies, I believe they usually second staff from their overseas operations, rather than recruiting here.

 

And at 50, aren't you perceived as past it for IT?

[Curt1591]

Thai businesses hire young. Most won't look past 35 years for any line of work.

[PingRoundTheWorld]

Unrealistic to get hired from abroad. You need to be here.

 

But a more pressing problem is why would you even want to get hired here?? Salary and benefits are significantly better in Europe. Working on a Thai salary is not something that makes much sense unless you have no other choice.

[SWW]

2 hours ago, Oxx said:

I don't see why any Thai company would be interested in you.  You don't (I presume) speak the language, are more expensive to hire, and would produce lots of extra paperwork.

 

As for foreign companies, I believe they usually second staff from their overseas operations, rather than recruiting here.

 

And at 50, aren't you perceived as past it for IT?

Leaving aside the inherent snark in that last sentence, yes it is true that in the West there is a perception that at 50 you're basically past it in IT - but less so in Asia. I say this as a guy in his 50s working in IT (as a developer and general 'do stuff' guy) for a large company here in Bangkok.

 

As mentioned by the OP, there is a large expat network in Bangkok - and that definitely applies to people in IT. There are a few large companies with some expat staff and we generally know each other, usually having worked together at some point in the last decade or two. (Think Ensogo, Reuters, Agoda, aCommerce, Kaidee.) This has the advantage that if you are an expat working in IT in Bangkok you tend to know other (usually senior) people in IT in Bangkok. If you are not - that's where there is a disadvantage to having a strong expat network: it's difficult to get "in".

 

At the very least, you need to be in Bangkok, to make your presence felt. There are networking events held from time to time (I believe AmCham is quite active in these - although it helps to be American, or know some Americans doing business here), but these are usually full of enthusiastic young'uns, or people looking for same.

 

All I can say is "good luck", and to remind everyone that 50 is not over-the-hill (please let me be telling the truth!), and that we have all been there trying to get a leg-up somewhere before. We should try to encourage people - by not trying, it guarantees that it won't happen. If you do try ... who knows!

[AgMech Cowboy]

Good Luck!! I can't help. Not in IT. Just a good luck wish.

[finnishmen]

unrealistic, you need be special know how, need speak thai fluent good, and write. 50 year old, big problem, i has see many my friend and me, if come 50 not have realistic possiple go anywere work good job. anybody corporation not take old peoples this is young peoples world. all my ower 50 year friend around world have workless because have too old. and not can take new work anywere, wery hard and must be totally good lucky if take new work if have over 50 year4 old. only idiot corporation take him.

[scorecard]

"...employed in the IT industry..."

 

There are thousands of qualified and experienced Thai people in pretty much all aspects of the 'IT industry'.

 

Unless you have rare deep knowledge and deep insightful experience in something very specific and very valuable, then...

 

Keep in mind that 'Unless you have rare deep knowledge and deep insightful experience in something very specific and very valuable' then why would a Thai give you a job where you cannot communicate well with other staff or with Thai clients, and make Thai employees angry / annoyed?

 

If the employer did employ you then you probably want more salary than typical Thai employees are paid. So why would the employer unnecessarily pay higher (higher operating costs)? And again piss off the Thai employees? 

 

And unless you have rare deep knowledge and deep insightful experience in something very specific and very valuable, why would the Thai empoyer spend time on work permit stuff, etc?

 

[wolf81]

I think age is the main problem. I could get a job easily if I wanted to and I am in IT as well (mobile dev). I'm 37 years old. I get weekly emails asking me if I am interested in working for this or that company in Bangkok. I often have to politely decline, since the payment (while great for Thai standards) is less than I make working remotely.

 

And there are ways to work around the quota. I interviewed for one mid-sized company (~2017) and they had almost no Thai working for them (P.S.: they seem to be looking for new people to join, so your could try that). Just people from Korea, Singapore, Vietnam, Europe. The owner (originally from Bolivia) told me they controlled 100% of their business (not exactly sure how that worked) and that indeed it was possible to have a company with hardly any Thais - perhaps because it's hard to find Thais with the proper skillset. 

 

Oh and for the people saying it's required to know the Thai language - the companies that invite me, don't have these requirements. These companies often work with a very international team so often the language inside the company is mostly English.

[CharlieH]

Reported post removed.

[tom in bangkok]

If you can't find anything but still really want to live and work in Thailand (and are willing to pay 30% of your income), you could consider Iglu. I considered using them but ended up finding my own way -- and the 30% cut they take was way more than the tax I pay anyway. Their consultants were pretty helpful and informative when I reached out to them.

 

The main benefit that I recognized from them was the work permit and visa being sorted out for you + the networking opportunities they explained.

[khunPer]

19 hours ago, gppower said:

I am 50, employed in the IT industry, masters degree, always being employed.

Age 50 is when others apply for a retirement visa – sorry to say it, but I would, like other posters have mentioned, believe that IT-geeks in demand are younger. I would presume your best odds for staying in Thailand would be as so-called "digital nomad" and doing some on-line business for a company, or companies, abroad, and keep low profile about your work, officially being "retired".

 

You might have a chance in a smaller foreign owned business – not a branch of a multi national company – but for that, you probably need to be here already to apply. However, it's some years ago I last saw some foreigner posting for people with IT-knowledge.

????

[WebGuy]

Everything is possible but no very bright prognosis

[fletchsmile]

Most of the jobs I've had in Thailand have been people approaching me, or thru connections established in Thailand or Asia generally.

 

Usually it would involve a foreigner somewhere along the line. Your chances of getting access via Thais in the process are small, unless you've been here a while and know your way around. I did have one role where a Thai that used to work with me let me know about a position and I knew the Thai boss from a previous company. So that came thru only Thai connections. That's an exception for me though in 20 years, and all other roles involved a foreigner somewhere along the line.

 

JobsDb I never had any success with. Seems to be more for lower/mid level, high volume positions  in contrast to senior management high level roles where a foreigner might add value. High volume, low/mid level positions attract a lot of applicants so no point them bothering with foreigners with so many Thais.

 

LinkedIn I've had the odd reply, over the years, though not many. Again there tend to be a lot of applicants even for high level positions, so it's easy for them to just bin you as being foreign.

 

You might have more luck with recruitment agents based in Thailand or occasionally regionally that are sourcing senior roles. Again there is usually a foreigner involved.

 

Sorry to say but over 50, you're less marketable. I'm not particularly active in the job market, but noticed that I got approached less in late 40's and around 50. Your shelf life thereafter is limited so you can't really blame them. Makes more sense to hire someone with a longer shelf life and more potential to grow, at a likely lower cost. Why bother taking the risk? If you could get to an interview stage you might put a case, but very difficult to get that interview where they are sifting thru many applications.

 

On top of that throw in the fact a lot of Thais would feel uncomfortable having a more knowledgeable foreigner working for them, particularly who is older. Age = status. Experience = status. Thais are often very status conscious and the boss is often expected to know more. So it sets itself up for being uncomfortable for many traditional Thais to appoint a foreigner working for them in a line role. As a consultant maybe easier. In contrast if you're the high level boss there's less friction for a Thai working for you, but that still leaves who your ultimate reporting lines are to upwards.

 

International companies often have diversity and inclusion agendas these days. They like to tick boxes for employing "locals" in countries, minorities, female etc. These sort of policies tilt the balance away from the average white guy in terms of legislation/ policies. All other things being equal in terms of education, qualifications, experience, etc you can be at a disadvantage from such policy perspectives. 

 

All this unfortunately leads to the phrase: "white, male, pale and stale" ????

 

So really that leaves you relying on personal connections to redress that balance. Ironically what policies are often trying to remove in the first place. It's the main card a 50 year old white male might have to play.

 

If you happen to be a "person of colour" or another race such as Indian, older more senior Thais can also be quite prejudiced and racist towards you too, and likely more so. So don't worry it's not just a white thing either. ????  Older Thais can be quite sexist too, which doesn't make it easy for women. These are "informal" preferences though, in contrast to "official" policies.

 

There is a more modern, younger, educated open-minded generation coming thru in Thailand. But sorry to say, that brings us back to why would they want an old guy in that organisational culture? They'd be looking for like minded young, well educated, open-minded people to fit their culture.

 

----------------------

Edit: BTW I wouldn't say the international expat community is bigger in Thailand. It tends to attract fewer and older expats in their twilight years. Singapore and HK have much bigger expat communities with quality jobs. These are the regional hubs to progress a career more than Thailand. They may be better entry points for someone wanting to work in Asia. Thailand is something of a spoke rather than a hub. That's generalising though, and I know quite a few successful expats who've been here long term. Most of the quality expats I knew in my younger years have moved on. Though a minority stay. International companies also like to move you around and Thailand is something of a shorter/medium term posting along the way. Singapore, HK often can move someone functionally with more opportunities for progression. 

 

[gppower]

13 hours ago, Oxx said:

 

 

And at 50, aren't you perceived as past it for IT?

 

 

Uhmm...I am in project management, not deep hardcore development...I like to believe 50 is not old for that...

 

[stephen tracy]

I would try my luck with S'pore or KL instead of BKK for IT jobs. The pay will be much better, there wont be any language barrier issues in IT in either, and you can easily visit BKK from either any time. Good luck. 

[gppower]

On 7/15/2019 at 9:15 AM, tom in bangkok said:

If you can't find anything but still really want to live and work in Thailand (and are willing to pay 30% of your income), you could consider Iglu. I considered using them but ended up finding my own way -- and the 30% cut they take was way more than the tax I pay anyway. Their consultants were pretty helpful and informative when I reached out to them.

 

The main benefit that I recognized from them was the work permit and visa being sorted out for you + the networking opportunities they explained.

 

As far as I understand, you have got to have your set of customers or an employer already. They help with the paperwork but they don't actually bring work to you.

 

[watboy]

I work at a Thai mega comglomerate. We have an ever growing IT department, we have hired a few aging fahrangs over the last few years. Your question is a fundamental career question of "how do I get a job in a new market" and the answers are true for every industry and every country.

 

Senior level hires are mostly through the CTO's existing professional network and/or head hunters. Of course, you will need a well defined skill set that is being sought out. If you have no network in the area, then you will have to do your own leg work and come over. It's an unrealistic exception that companies will put much effort into recruiting you.

 

You will always face the question of your commitment to the region, no one wants to hire someone who decides 12 months later he made the wrong decision to move and quits. Again, this is true for every industry and every market. I have seen my fair share of people with fantastical expectations of the expat life of comfy living and easy work that don't work out. If anything, the job performance expectations for expats are even higher than their home market.

 

As for the IT job market in Thailand. While there is the perpetual corporate demand for enterprise IT work, there is no shortage of that kind of talent in region. There is a healthy startup market here and a shortage of good developers with relevant skills (mobile, UIX, anything new economy...). But it is the startup pay and lifestyle in Bangkok, which may not be so attractive for a 50yo.

[Oxx]

6 hours ago, watboy said:

we have hired a few aging fahrangs over the last few years

 

Just wondering, but were they employed to work on the likes of COBOL, MUMPS, and FORTRAN? 

[MarkyM3]

 

23 hours ago, Oxx said:

 

Just wondering, but were they employed to work on the likes of COBOL, MUMPS, and FORTRAN? 

I'm an IBM mainframe specialist for a FTSE100 company in the UK, that market is pretty much dead in Thailand unfortunately, at least on the open jobs market. Salaries are not worthwhile either.

 

Opportunities elsewhere in Asia also limited due to cheap hires from India etc., many of whom are still in their 20s, 30s and 40s. The predicted legacy skills shortage is a myth in this area! 

 

[OneMoreFarang]

I work in IT in Bangkok for many years, including work permit.

I think to get a job here there must be a couple of conditions:

- You must be in some or many ways better than the locals because hiring a foreigner is a lot of extra work and cost for companies.

- Many local are good enough in English so that alone is not good enough anymore.

- I guess one reason why foreigners hire foreigners is that they trust (in general) foreigners more than (maybe well connected) Thais. But obviously you have to earn that trust. And that will be difficult to achieve from far away.

 

If you are flexible you could try to get hired for (short) projects. Show them how good you are (in Thailand) and then look for other options.

Good luck! You need it.

[OneMoreFarang]

On 7/15/2019 at 10:55 AM, finnishmen said:

need speak thai fluent good, and write

No!

In many companies everybody speaks English.

It doesn't hurt to know (a little) Thai. But it is essential to know English!

[bwpage3]

If you can earn money as a digital nomad, working for yourself, then you could move to Thailand where it may be easier to get a full time job.

 

It is a pretty safe bet to say you have no idea what you are getting yourself into.

 

If you have ever been to Thailand, it is NO WHERE NEAR the same place when you have to live there and work there fulltime, as it is for a couple of weeks as a tourist.

 

At fifty years, old better start thinking about 20 years ahead and how you could make that work with no retirement benefits or a low salary?

[Dnyy]

On 7/15/2019 at 11:06 AM, scorecard said:

There are thousands of qualified and experienced Thai people in pretty much all aspects of the 'IT industry'.

That's a fairy tale. There are not masses of highly qualified Thais, although Thais seem to think that (and foreigners). Having worked with a lot of people and being Thai myself, I can tell you that it's even extremely difficult to find a Thai who can speak English fluently. It's all show, behind their make up and nice outfits there is nothing but hot air. But that's how it is here.

[OneMoreFarang]

1 hour ago, Dnyy said:

On 7/15/2019 at 11:06 AM, scorecard said:

There are thousands of qualified and experienced Thai people in pretty much all aspects of the 'IT industry'.

That's a fairy tale. There are not masses of highly qualified Thais, although Thais seem to think that (and foreigners). Having worked with a lot of people and being Thai myself, I can tell you that it's even extremely difficult to find a Thai who can speak English fluently. It's all show, behind their make up and nice outfits there is nothing but hot air. But that's how it is here.

It seems to me that if you ask for specific qualification like programming languages, experience with Windows server, etc. you can find Thais who are qualified in these areas. But it is difficult to find Thais with lots of background info who understand concepts and can think out of the box - not only in IT. These people are very rare. And they know they are in demand and they are not cheap.

[me4175]

Having worked for various companies in the IT Industry in Thailand over the past 30 years, in roles on the service provider as well as the internal IT side, I'd say that it's more or less impossible to get hired into a pure Thai company without someone in CxO level specifically insisting to hire you, because they know you well or got a personal recommendation from a trusted source. Nobody will hire a foreigner they don't know and who has no experience working here, not even being here yet. I have worked for pure Thai companies, in one being the only foreigner at times, and without any Thai language and cultural skills you'll not even survive your probation.

That leaves international or foreign-owned companies who are looking for someone who speaks their "language" and leads IT projects or a team of IT professionals.

The jobs I didn't get due to personal connections I got through LinkedIn, frequent contacts there. Applying for jobs on job portals didn't get me any interviews, ever.

So have a good LinkedIn profile and try to gain local connections here. But without being here for networking it's virtually impossible to land a decent job, especially in your age.

[OneMoreFarang]

8 hours ago, me4175 said:

Having worked for various companies in the IT Industry in Thailand over the past 30 years, in roles on the service provider as well as the internal IT side, I'd say that it's more or less impossible to get hired into a pure Thai company without someone in CxO level specifically insisting to hire you, because they know you well or got a personal recommendation from a trusted source. Nobody will hire a foreigner they don't know and who has no experience working here, not even being here yet. I have worked for pure Thai companies, in one being the only foreigner at times, and without any Thai language and cultural skills you'll not even survive your probation.

Did you feel comfortable in the Thai-only company.

For many years I installed small computer networks and did service for small Thai and foreign companies in Bangkok.

With Thai companies I had never any trouble when I just installed the network. But many of them were surprised when I charged later for additional work.

One example was a law company and probably the (grand) child of the owner played with her computer, installed lots of games, viruses, etc.. When the PC was not working anymore they asked me to fix it, what I did, but then they were surprised that I charged for that service. They paid the bill but never hired me again.

I had similar experience with other (small) Thai companies.

It seems foreigners understand the concept of "Time is Money". Many Thais not so much.

They are willing to pay for (good) devices but are often not willing to pay for service.