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[KETO] Just How Important are Carbohydrates for Athletes...Really?

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22 hours ago, stephenterry said:

I wouldn't promote any caloric intake reduction, because such CICO diets don't work - as has been scientifically proven - in that the body reacts by lowering the metabolic rate to compensate. 

 

A preferred weight loss regime, IMO, is to undertake Intermittent fasting, and to engage ketosis (which burns fat) and which doesn't reduce metabolic rate.  Anyone who has 'taught' the body to accept ketosis would enter that state some 12 hours after the last meal. Once fat burning begins, then look at a nutrition lifestyle change to eat healthier either before or when the desired weight loss is achieved.

 

As for Carbs, I'm a little hesitant in agreeing - or even suggesting - that the human body doesn't need Carbs to exist.

Why? 

Mainly, because I believe that a proper balance between (low) carbs, (high) fat and (good) protein is an essential nutritional factor - and the absence of one component is not conducive to maximum health benefits for the human body.

 

I'm just one person (out of billions) who has established a healthy dietary routine that works for me, and has maintained weight loss, but now looking to build muscle. 

 

 

 

   

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

CICO is the ONLY way to START - yes you have to adjust as your body composition changes, however to begin you establish your caloric need - then when you reduce these you WILL loose weight. 

 

 

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22 hours ago, stephenterry said:

WH said: -

As regards resistance training (and unlike cardio based exercise), it can have a huge positive effect on fat loss in terms of metabolic changes that occur as a result.  It seriously changes metabolic hormonal balance in a positive and long-term way that enhances how the body metabolizes fat stores.  The way it changes hormonal balance also has a psychological effect that replaces the desire to eat junky foods.

 

Combining diet with resistance training is the optimal way to lose body fat, even for someone who's never set foot inside a gym and irregardless of their age, and even if they have disabilities (with the help of a good coach or trainer).

 

That's just my opinion, and again, I agree with you, that one can only do what one can do, BUT sometimes in life, you have to be willing to go beyond what you think your limits are, if you are to make positive lifestyle changes. 

 

Most people find they can accomplish far more than they believe.  Just about everybody is capable of such changes if they are truly serious about fat loss.  It all really boils down to how much you really want it. 

 

 

Exactly. I agree. In your opinion what is the 'lowest' weight that is required for resistance training to be beneficial? Apologies for not knowing how the exercises - deadlift, squat, etc work and what muscle groups are benefitted.    

 

Lowest weight required will very much depend on your base line strenght.... we are all different in that 20kg arm curls maybe tough for me yet very easy for another & vice versa. I would say that if you can lift the weight for a high number (12-15) or reps with ease then this is too light. You should feel the muscle burn from rep 8-10 ish this would then be a decent baseline start.

 

As for the very first few sessions, GO LIGHT & EASY, you will feel sore but there is no need to risk injury. 

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47 minutes ago, eezergood said:

CICO is the ONLY way to START - yes you have to adjust as your body composition changes, however to begin you establish your caloric need - then when you reduce these you WILL loose weight. 

With all due respect, CICO diets are not the ideal way to lose weight.  YES, you have to be burning more calories than you consume, but it is not a good dieting strategy to cut calories in order for this to happen.  The body itself has much more efficient mechanisms to make this happen.

 

CICO diets in general have a miserable track record for long term success.  The current epidemic in obesity and Diabetes type 2 is proof of that!  There are two reasons that CICO diets are not effective in the long-term: 

 

Reason #1:  CICO does not address the underlying nutritional cause of obesity.  The underlying cause is almost always poor food selection; specifically too many carbs, and even more specifically, junky carbs (i.e.: processed foods with lots of sugar in them such as high fructose corn syrup.)  Much better results will come form simply eliminating unnecessary carbs. 

 

If you are eating healthy (not overwhelming the body with unnecessary carbs), the body has mechanisms to control your appetite (leptin response), and to promote fat burning (insulin response).  Too many junky carbs blunts these responses; it's as simple as that.

 

So, the first step in reducing excess body fat should be to re-evaluate your nutritional lifestyle, and make changes to reduce unnecessary carbohydrates (not calories).  If you do that, the body will handle the rest.

 

Reason #2:  Almost everybody starts out on a CICO diet with good intentions but they are impatient for results and tend to cut calories too severely.  This is a fact!  This only results in a slowdown in resting metabolic rate.  So, even though they have reduced caloric intake, they will not lose body fat since they body's caloric demands are now lessened. 

 

In fact, it's entirely possible (and likely) to gain body fat from CICO dieting because most people will give up out of frustration after several days or a week, start eating as they did before, and in their lowered metabolic state will end up GAINING more body fat than they had before the dieting attempt, even though they are only eating the same calories as they did before the diet!

 

This is the classic path of CICO dieting, and it has been proven in countless of studies.  It is a pattern of yo-yo weight loss and gain as the dieter repeatedly tries one CICO type diet after another, and the long term result is that they get fatter and fatter over time.

 

To effectively lose excess body fat, you need to focus on cutting carbohydrates, not calories.  In a broader sense, you need to take a good look at your nutritional lifestyle, and improve it. 

 

Cut down on processed, junky foods high in carbohydrates, and the body will handle the rest.  The body is an amazing machine, capable of maintaining (and adjusting to) proper body fat levels if you are eating proper foods, and very bad at doing this if you are not.  It's really that simple.

Edited by WaveHunter
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22 minutes ago, eezergood said:

CICO is the ONLY way to START - yes you have to adjust as your body composition changes, however to begin you establish your caloric need - then when you reduce these you WILL loose weight. 

 

 

Sorry, I don't agree it's a long time solution. It's being scientifically discredited as being the wrong approach towards losing weight. 

 

I will try and clarify. Cutting calories works in the short term. Weight is lost. But as soon as the dieter ends the diet, the weight WILL BE put back on if there are no nutrition life changes. There have been many diet studies to evidence this.

 

Just returning to what you've eaten before leads to weight gain, because the body has adjusted to the new level of calorie consumption by slowing down the metabolic rate - because the body is protecting you from starvation and an early death. So  - with a lower metabolic rate - you have to eat less to just maintain the new weight.

 

Just read up on it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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32 minutes ago, eezergood said:

Lowest weight required will very much depend on your base line strenght.... we are all different in that 20kg arm curls maybe tough for me yet very easy for another & vice versa. I would say that if you can lift the weight for a high number (12-15) or reps with ease then this is too light. You should feel the muscle burn from rep 8-10 ish this would then be a decent baseline start.

 

As for the very first few sessions, GO LIGHT & EASY, you will feel sore but there is no need to risk injury. 

I've read a sample from the book you mentioned. First of all I will perfect the squat position to ensure I'm doing it right before even lifting weights. I'm not as supple nowadays. I'll move on from there - thanks for the advice - very useful. 

 

BTW I crossed on your response to Eezergood, which I agree with, and I hope he agrees it's worth researching more on the CICO diet failures. Trouble is, there are so many different approaches towards nutritional health that it's easy to be misled by a latest fad diet and wonderful gut-filling recipes that panders to being the best thing since sliced bread.   Well, anything is better than sliced bread, isn't it?

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46 minutes ago, stephenterry said:

I've read a sample from the book you mentioned. First of all I will perfect the squat position to ensure I'm doing it right before even lifting weights. I'm not as supple nowadays. I'll move on from there - thanks for the advice - very useful. 

 

BTW I crossed on your response to Eezergood, which I agree with, and I hope he agrees it's worth researching more on the CICO diet failures. Trouble is, there are so many different approaches towards nutritional health that it's easy to be misled by a latest fad diet and wonderful gut-filling recipes that panders to being the best thing since sliced bread.   Well, anything is better than sliced bread, isn't it?

Yes, technique is everything when it comes to lifting weights if you want to avoid possible injury.  While Rippetoe's book is amazing (and his YouTube videos are even more helpful BTW), it would be a wise thing to start out with a good trainer/coach. 

 

It's hard to self-visualize your body position even with a mirror so much better to have someone else watching you who understands the body mechanics of resistance training, and can correct your technique.  There's a very fast learning curve when you do it this way, so after a few weeks, you can safely go solo.

 

Just remember that weight training can be very unforgiving if you make mistakes, particularly if you are older, and especially with the Squat and Deadlift which can really screw up your lower back if done incorrectly.  But with proper technique, it can be very safe and rewarding.

 

As for nutrition, yes choices can be bewildering if you let all the health gurus overwhelm you but good nutrition is really simple if you let your own body guide you. 

 

It's important to be educated in science based fact as opposed to guru-type pseudoscience , but people usually underestimate the body's own ability to know what's good or bad for it. 

 

When you are eating "healthy" the body's metabolic machinery is in optimal balance.  When you eat poorly, it is not.  Your body tells you these things in no uncertain terms.

 

If you eat something bad for you, your body lets you know in no uncertain terms (i.e.: gastro-intestinal distress).  Conversely, if you eat well, it lets you know that too (i.e.: waking up in the morning with a clear head and no need for a cup of coffee to get started).

 

So, IMO, you don't need "new flavor of the month" wacky weight-loss diets, you don't need to watch health gurus on YouTube, you don't need to be counting calories, or following any other confusing, convoluted ideas. 

 

Just learning to listen to your body is the best nutritional strategy of all IMHO; it will tell you whether you're doing things right or not.  At least that's how I see it, and it works pretty good for me 🙂

 

Edited by WaveHunter
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1 hour ago, stephenterry said:

I've read a sample from the book you mentioned. First of all I will perfect the squat position to ensure I'm doing it right before even lifting weights. I'm not as supple nowadays. I'll move on from there - thanks for the advice - very useful. 

 

BTW I crossed on your response to Eezergood, which I agree with, and I hope he agrees it's worth researching more on the CICO diet failures. Trouble is, there are so many different approaches towards nutritional health that it's easy to be misled by a latest fad diet and wonderful gut-filling recipes that panders to being the best thing since sliced bread.   Well, anything is better than sliced bread, isn't it?

Great way to start - squats are not (even though the instagram community would let us believe otherwise) the bee all and end all, so dont stress that. If you want to see a near perfect bio mechanical squat watch an infant pick up a ball from the floor. 

 

Do some research for sure, and DEFINITELY ask questions - Rob is a frequent poster and a great source also 

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1 hour ago, WaveHunter said:

With all due respect, CICO diets are not the ideal way to lose weight.  YES, you have to be burning more calories than you consume, but it is not a good dieting strategy to cut calories in order for this to happen.  The body itself has much more efficient mechanisms to make this happen.

 

CICO diets in general have a miserable track record for long term success.  The current epidemic in obesity and Diabetes type 2 is proof of that!  There are two reasons that CICO diets are not effective in the long-term: 

 

Reason #1:  CICO does not address the underlying nutritional cause of obesity.  The underlying cause is almost always poor food selection; specifically too many carbs, and even more specifically, junky carbs (i.e.: processed foods with lots of sugar in them such as high fructose corn syrup.)  Much better results will come form simply eliminating unnecessary carbs. 

 

If you are eating healthy (not overwhelming the body with unnecessary carbs), the body has mechanisms to control your appetite (leptin response), and to promote fat burning (insulin response).  Too many junky carbs blunts these responses; it's as simple as that.

 

So, the first step in reducing excess body fat should be to re-evaluate your nutritional lifestyle, and make changes to reduce unnecessary carbohydrates (not calories).  If you do that, the body will handle the rest.

 

Reason #2:  Almost everybody starts out on a CICO diet with good intentions but they are impatient for results and tend to cut calories too severely.  This is a fact!  This only results in a slowdown in resting metabolic rate.  So, even though they have reduced caloric intake, they will not lose body fat since they body's caloric demands are now lessened. 

 

In fact, it's entirely possible (and likely) to gain body fat from CICO dieting because most people will give up out of frustration after several days or a week, start eating as they did before, and in their lowered metabolic state will end up GAINING more body fat than they had before the dieting attempt, even though they are only eating the same calories as they did before the diet!

 

This is the classic path of CICO dieting, and it has been proven in countless of studies.  It is a pattern of yo-yo weight loss and gain as the dieter repeatedly tries one CICO type diet after another, and the long term result is that they get fatter and fatter over time.

 

To effectively lose excess body fat, you need to focus on cutting carbohydrates, not calories.  In a broader sense, you need to take a good look at your nutritional lifestyle, and improve it. 

 

Cut down on processed, junky foods high in carbohydrates, and the body will handle the rest.  The body is an amazing machine, capable of maintaining (and adjusting to) proper body fat levels if you are eating proper foods, and very bad at doing this if you are not.  It's really that simple.

Sorry i cannot respond more (work is busy today) please look closely at what I said 

 

CICO is the only way to START - i will (try anyway) to elaborate my thoughts further & thanks to you all for the responses without the flame wars. Very refreshing

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45 minutes ago, eezergood said:

Great way to start - squats are not (even though the instagram community would let us believe otherwise) the bee all and end all, so dont stress that. If you want to see a near perfect bio mechanical squat watch an infant pick up a ball from the floor. 

 

Do some research for sure, and DEFINITELY ask questions - Rob is a frequent poster and a great source also 

I might be a good source of information but I never really know if I am doing things 100 mechanically correct. I have not had any injuries so i probably do. Though if I go real heavy with squats i notice that my technique changes (lower back gets more stress).

 

I just believe in a program that is build around compound lifts it has always served me well and made my best gains on it. 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, eezergood said:

Sorry i cannot respond more (work is busy today) please look closely at what I said 

 

CICO is the only way to START - i will (try anyway) to elaborate my thoughts further & thanks to you all for the responses without the flame wars. Very refreshing

Yes, please elaborate when you get the time.  I think I do understand what you are saying, but as I said, I agree that weight loss requires less calories in than out BUT cutting dietary calories is not the way to accomplish this, as illogical as that might sound.

 

It might sound like a minor point when I say "cut carbs, not calories" but there's actually a critical distinction between these two approaches. 

 

The standard approach to CICO weight control considers all calories alike.  This is clearly not the case.  There is a huge difference between calories derived from carbs compared with those derived from proteins and fats.  Carbs create a strong insulin response compared to that of fats and proteins, and insulin response is what determines whether food is used for energy or stored as excess body fat .  It also determines whether stored body fat can be accessed to meet the fuel needs of yhe body.  Thus, carb control, not calories are what is important if the goal is to lose excess body fat.

 

What's more, carb restriction actually INCREASES resting metabolic rate (burns more calories), whereas caloric restriction DECREASES it (burns less calories.  See this study:  Effects of a low carbohydrate diet on energy expenditure during weight loss maintenance.

 

So, I'll agree with you that modifying diet is the way to START, but disagree that CICO dietary dogma is valid.  Science has proved that it is not.  Science has however proved that carb control is a more valid way to control excess body fat.

Edited by WaveHunter
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1 hour ago, WaveHunter said:

Yes, please elaborate when you get the time.  I think I do understand what you are saying, but as I said, I agree that weight loss requires less calories in than out BUT cutting dietary calories is not the way to accomplish this, as illogical as that might sound.

 

It might sound like a minor point when I say "cut carbs, not calories" but there's actually a critical distinction between these two approaches. 

 

The standard approach to CICO weight control considers all calories alike.  This is clearly not the case.  There is a huge difference between calories derived from carbs compared with those derived from proteins and fats.  Carbs create a strong insulin response compared to that of fats and proteins, and insulin response is what determines whether food is used for energy or stored as excess body fat .  It also determines whether stored body fat can be accessed to meet the fuel needs of yhe body.  Thus, carb control, not calories are what is important if the goal is to lose excess body fat.

 

What's more, carb restriction actually INCREASES resting metabolic rate (burns more calories), whereas caloric restriction DECREASES it (burns less calories.  See this study:  Effects of a low carbohydrate diet on energy expenditure during weight loss maintenance.

 

So, I'll agree with you that modifying diet is the way to START, but disagree that CICO dietary dogma is valid.  Science has proved that it is not.  Science has however proved that carb control is a more valid way to control excess body fat.

CICO is great to start then later you focus on the quality of food. I have learned that you start little and change a bit more and more. You can't go crap diet to full blown super good diet. Same goes for training you start slow learn and improve.

 

Same now with my cardio im going faster now doing it a bit longer and will keep doing so. If I had rushed into it started faster and longer (i could physically) i would have stopped already. Sometimes you have to ease into things.

 

For all the studies you find I have found studies that say it does not matter much especially those in metabolic chambers. So I really don't believe much in that myth. Besides of course that if you remove carbs and ad proteins but keep the calories the same you will burn more as proteins have a higher thermic effect. Not if you replace it with fat as it has lower thermic effect as protein.  (but a good study should take that into account)

 

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I don't deny that the "CICO" style diet may work for some people but for the vast majority of obese people weight-loss diets based on the CICO concept fail miserably. 

 

If this were not so then there would not be an obesity epidemic today, and we would not be overwhelmed by a deluge of new CICO-style weight loss diets that come and go on an almost daily basis. It should be obvious that CICO diets have a miserable long-term success rate. 

 

If you are obese and continually fail to lose weight on CICO, maybe you really need to come to terms with the REAL underlying causes, and not just blindly repeatedly follow outdated, unfounded nutritional dogma which is all that CICO really is.

 

Diets based on calorie counting are simply not sustainable in the long-run if you have not addressed the underlying issues of obesity first.

 

Anybody's who's experienced frustrated attempts to lose fat on a CICO diet knows this.  One diet follows another, and the CICO dieter yo-yo's down a few pounds and then back up again, and in the long run just gets fatter and fatter over time.

 

The underlying causes of the obesity epidemic today, as I see it, are 1) excessive consumption of "concentrated" carbohydrates found in processed foods, 2) eating food from the moment you get out of bed in the morning to the moment you go to sleep (food grazing), and 2) an overly sedentary lifestyle.

 

Addressing these issues is the real solution to optimal metabolic health (and maintaining ideal body weight).  Unlike calorie counting CICO diets, it is sustainable in the long-term because it is a lifestyle, not just a short term diet.

 

I firmly believe you should not ever have to go on crazy weight loss diets to maintain proper body weight.  Your body has the capability to do that on its' own IF YOU ARE EATING HEALTHY, and eating healthy really means not overindulging in processed foods which have unnaturally high levels of carbs! 

 

The body has built-in metabolic mechanisms such as leptin and insulin response that do a great job at control the amount of calories we consume IF those mechanisms are functioning properly. 

 

Excessive carbohydrate consumption seriously screws with these mechanisms and THAT is the real cause of obesity.  It is these mechanisms that should control the quantity of calories you consume, not your will power!

 

And the thing is...it's not even that hard to do!  It's tough in the beginning like breaking any bad habit is, but the results come so fast and so profoundly that those health improvements become highly motivating. 

 

So, all I am saying is that, for those who have repeatedly tried CICO and failed, maybe you should try another approach.  What do you have to lose except your own body fat?

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With a BMI of 23.1 I am not really fat, just have this 3-4 kg cannon ball belly I need to down size. I am already fairly active, so clearly my diet have been wrong.

Bread have my single biggest source of carbs and it will be dearly missed, but keto diet seem like the way forward.

 

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1 hour ago, ExpatOilWorker said:

With a BMI of 23.1 I am not really fat, just have this 3-4 kg cannon ball belly I need to down size. I am already fairly active, so clearly my diet have been wrong.

Bread have my single biggest source of carbs and it will be dearly missed, but keto diet seem like the way forward.

Bread is a big weakness for me to; I love fresh baked bread.  If you can eliminate it, and other unnecessary carbs, I think you'll be surprised how quickly you lose that belly fat. 

 

As for going on a keto "diet", I'd encourage you to think more about becoming "keto-adapted".  There's a significant difference.  Google for more information.

 

Personally I don't have much faith in any sort of short term "diets".  Becoming keto-adapted is not dieting.  It's a way to train your body to better use fats (both stored body fat and dietary fat) as an efficient fuel source.

 

When you are truly keto-adapted, your body is fully capable of maintaining ideal body weight without the need to be dieting or counting calories...and you can eat all kinds of foods (including bread) as long as you stay keto-adapted.  It's a pretty nice feeling to be free of of the ups and downs of weight loss dieting and calorie counting 🙂

 

Edited by WaveHunter
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14 hours ago, ExpatOilWorker said:

With a BMI of 23.1 I am not really fat, just have this 3-4 kg cannon ball belly I need to down size. I am already fairly active, so clearly my diet have been wrong.

Bread have my single biggest source of carbs and it will be dearly missed, but keto diet seem like the way forward.

 

 

 

You are what they call a skinny fat person. My BMI is much higher then yours but with visible abs. Yes its probably your diet that makes it hard for you.

 

You might consider lifting some weights too not doing only cardio. 

 

I was fat but never a cannon ball belly (looks a lot like an insulin problem then cutting carbs is the way to go). When i was fat i was still active and lifting weights.. but my diet sucked. You cannot out train a bad diet. 

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