marcusarelus Posted July 20, 2019 Share Posted July 20, 2019 1 hour ago, sirineou said: The point was made that trump did not support NATO , so why NATO be so ready to support trump. trump was not president when the allies came to the aid of the US during the gulf war. Nor was he President when America came to aid the Allies during WWI. Treaties are not made with Presidents they are made with countries. Trump supported Nato but not freeloaders not paying their fair share. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bristolboy Posted July 20, 2019 Share Posted July 20, 2019 Just now, marcusarelus said: Nor was he President when America came to aid the Allies during WWI. Treaties are not made with Presidents they are made with countries. Trump supported Nato but not freeloaders not paying their fair share. First off he refused to commit the USA to defending Nato nations if Russia attacked. But it's actually irrelevant. That fact is that Nato members are not committed to bailing Trump out of the mess he's made for himself. It's not about defending Europe. They know that the USA is ultimately responsible for the present situation much like George Bush was ultimately responsible for the Iraq War. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marcusarelus Posted July 20, 2019 Share Posted July 20, 2019 At some point in the near future treaty or no treaty Iran was going to get a nuclear weapon. That's not going to happen. Can fight them now or later. Up to you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bristolboy Posted July 20, 2019 Share Posted July 20, 2019 4 minutes ago, marcusarelus said: At some point in the near future treaty or no treaty Iran was going to get a nuclear weapon. That's not going to happen. Can fight them now or later. Up to you. Really? So you're a visitor from the future? Anyway, good to see that you're no longer defending your contention that Nato members are somehow obliged to bail Trump out of this situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Basil B Posted July 20, 2019 Share Posted July 20, 2019 I suppose most countries are wary of an American lead operation as America has it's own agenda. Also Iran has a sizable and well equipped navy including mine laying subs... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Opl Posted July 20, 2019 Share Posted July 20, 2019 7 minutes ago, marcusarelus said: At some point in the near future treaty or no treaty Iran was going to get a nuclear weapon. That's not going to happen. Can fight them now or later. Up to you. Trump tries to destroy every time what has been put in place by promising to do much better. And there is not much going on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bristolboy Posted July 20, 2019 Share Posted July 20, 2019 1 minute ago, Opl said: Trump tries to destroy every time what has been put in place by promising to do much better. And there is not much going on. I wonder how long it's going to be until American troops in Iraq start to be targeted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mavideol Posted July 20, 2019 Share Posted July 20, 2019 17 hours ago, snoop1130 said: Nobody wants to be on that confrontational course and part of a U.S. push against Iran.” Trump criticized all US allies/friends, he ALONE decided to step aside from the nuclear deal to despite Obama and now he wants allies/friends support, is he kidding or dumb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimmyyy Posted July 20, 2019 Share Posted July 20, 2019 The US does not need oil from the middle east we have our own sources, so who really needs help when Iran acts like this, sure as hell not the USA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimmyyy Posted July 20, 2019 Share Posted July 20, 2019 7 minutes ago, bristolboy said: I wonder how long it's going to be until American troops in Iraq start to be targeted. Never stopped be targeted, only difference is now the Iraqi Army goes out and finds who is launching the motors are Balad and Taji and puts and end to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mavideol Posted July 20, 2019 Share Posted July 20, 2019 2 hours ago, bristolboy said: And I pointed out to you the example of Iraq. Did most of nato allies come to the aid of the US then? and why should them had done that.... Nato alliance is to assist any of it's members if they were in trouble was Iraq a member? US is a member was it in trouble or being invaded, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bristolboy Posted July 20, 2019 Share Posted July 20, 2019 3 minutes ago, jimmyyy said: The US does not need oil from the middle east we have our own sources, so who really needs help when Iran acts like this, sure as hell not the USA. The US is still a net importer of oil And even if it weren't oil prices would shoot up if the Straits of Hormuz became a no go zone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mavideol Posted July 20, 2019 Share Posted July 20, 2019 17 hours ago, snoop1130 said: “The Americans want to create an ‘alliance of the willing’ who confront future attacks,” MAGA he will be alone, """you made your bed now lie in it""" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marcusarelus Posted July 20, 2019 Share Posted July 20, 2019 20 minutes ago, bristolboy said: Really? So you're a visitor from the future? Anyway, good to see that you're no longer defending your contention that Nato members are somehow obliged to bail Trump out of this situation. Iran will be dealt with by a coalition of the willing to include Britain, USA, Saudi Arabia, Israel and France who will sanction Iran until something breaks. Or the USA, Israel and Saudi Arabia and Britain go it alone. No need to bail out Trump. USA has not needed bailing out since 1776. Vietnam or North Korea or Iraq were never a threat to the USA homeland. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bristolboy Posted July 20, 2019 Share Posted July 20, 2019 4 minutes ago, jimmyyy said: Never stopped be targeted, only difference is now the Iraqi Army goes out and finds who is launching the motors are Balad and Taji and puts and end to it. Not if the Iranian backed militias are behind it. https://af.reuters.com/article/worldNews/idAFKCN1SL0FW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bristolboy Posted July 20, 2019 Share Posted July 20, 2019 Just now, marcusarelus said: Iran will be dealt with by a coalition of the willing to include Britain, USA, Saudi Arabia, Israel and France who will sanction Iran until something breaks. Or the USA, Israel and Saudi Arabia and Britain go it alone. No need to bail out Trump. USA has not needed bailing out since 1776. Vietnam or North Korea or Iraq was never a threat to the USA homeland. And you think that's not going to have political consequences at home. Trump promised not to start any more wars. This would not be popular in the USA. Americans are no longer so foolish as to believe that Mideast Wars are going to be short and sweet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morty T Posted July 20, 2019 Share Posted July 20, 2019 3 hours ago, spidermike007 said: Trump has gone out of his way to disavow our allies, criticize them at every opportunity, pay them no respect whatsoever, and talk on and on and on about what they owe the US, why they are not playing fair, and why they are not good friends of the US. Now, he asks for help. What on earth does this man, who does not have a common sense bone in his body, and is the worst negotiator around, expect from them at this point? Yes, sir. Whatever you say sir! Not going to happen. He has spend two years attempting to destroy alliances that took 50-100 years to build. I suggest he ask his dictator friends for help. He has spent so much effort befriending them, maybe Russia or North Korea can help the US, and prove just how deep those alliances are. The EU (Germany in particular) needs US troops to protect them from the evil Russians. However the EU (Germany in particular) purchase over 80% of their oil and LNG from Russia. Now Trump points this out and he is the threat. Can't have it both ways, the US as we are constantly told is not the world's policeman, that is of course when its needed to be. Trump is correct, they (allies) can protect their own ships, the US shouldn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimmyyy Posted July 20, 2019 Share Posted July 20, 2019 15 minutes ago, bristolboy said: The US is still a net importer of oil And even if it weren't oil prices would shoot up if the Straits of Hormuz became a no go zone. Wrong, the USA is now a net EXPORTER of oil. https://www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-becomes-net-exporter-of-oil-fuels-for-first-time-in-decades-1544128404 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jany123 Posted July 20, 2019 Share Posted July 20, 2019 17 hours ago, snoop1130 said: The United States does not want to go it alone. The Divided States should have considered this prospect before going it alone in unilaterally trashing an agreement, in opposition to their allies, that created this current problem. clean it up Don, and make restitution to all that you have harmed. His next book might be titled “ the art of the broken deal”... its no wonder leading phycologists are so concerned about the trump being in charge of anything other than ordering a tray full of hamburders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimmyyy Posted July 20, 2019 Share Posted July 20, 2019 Once again, we don't need the oil, the deal was very bad for all. All is did was to flush a terrorist funding nation with cash. We are better off now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bristolboy Posted July 20, 2019 Share Posted July 20, 2019 10 minutes ago, jimmyyy said: Wrong, the USA is now a net EXPORTER of oil. https://www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-becomes-net-exporter-of-oil-fuels-for-first-time-in-decades-1544128404 Did you read just under the headline? Fracking boom briefly propels U.S. to symbolic milestone of ‘energy independence’ And it doesn't address the question of greatly higher prices. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sujo Posted July 20, 2019 Share Posted July 20, 2019 The US doesnt like to go it alone. it requested Aus send troops to Vietnam and the Gulf war in 2003. But for the spoils of war, they do like to then go it alone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billd766 Posted July 20, 2019 Share Posted July 20, 2019 26 minutes ago, jimmyyy said: The US does not need oil from the middle east we have our own sources, so who really needs help when Iran acts like this, sure as hell not the USA. So tell us all why Iran is acting like this? Obviously it has nothing to do with Trump pulling out of a fairly stable deal, sending a carrier group into shallow waters, sending B52s to the gulf area, sending extra troops as well, declaring sanctions on Iran and ANY country that has dealings with Iran. So why in any gods name would you expect Iran to roll over and say sorry. IMHO to de-escalate the problems perhaps the USA and especially the POTUS (who is the prime creator of the mess) should pull out of the region completely and lift the sanctions immediately. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jany123 Posted July 20, 2019 Share Posted July 20, 2019 13 minutes ago, jimmyyy said: Wrong, the USA is now a net EXPORTER of oil. https://www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-becomes-net-exporter-of-oil-fuels-for-first-time-in-decades-1544128404 Is? Are we sure? I suppose if you shut down other oil exporters, sooner or later you’ll be the only one left... but I digress https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=37772# Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bristolboy Posted July 20, 2019 Share Posted July 20, 2019 11 minutes ago, billd766 said: So tell us all why Iran is acting like this? Obviously it has nothing to do with Trump pulling out of a fairly stable deal, sending a carrier group into shallow waters, sending B52s to the gulf area, sending extra troops as well, declaring sanctions on Iran and ANY country that has dealings with Iran. So why in any gods name would you expect Iran to roll over and say sorry. IMHO to de-escalate the problems perhaps the USA and especially the POTUS (who is the prime creator of the mess) should pull out of the region completely and lift the sanctions immediately. Just recently there was an article in Politico that showed Trump had already drastically reduced his demands. Now they're just about Iran's nuclear program. Before it wasn't just about nuclear weapons, but about missiles and Iran's involvement in military action elsewhere in the region. So Trump is already retreating. He can't be too thrilled about this situation. Some are so shocked and awed by the USA's impressive armed forces that they forget that Iran has leverage over Trump, too. I think there's a good chance we'll end up with another of Trump's retreats like the replacement for NAFTA: a few small changes but basically the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Opl Posted July 20, 2019 Share Posted July 20, 2019 22 minutes ago, bristolboy said: Just recently there was an article in Politico that showed Trump had already drastically reduced his demands. Now they're just about Iran's nuclear program. Before it wasn't just about nuclear weapons, but about missiles and Iran's involvement in military action elsewhere in the region. So Trump is already retreating. He can't be too thrilled about this situation. Some are so shocked and awed by the USA's impressive armed forces that they forget that Iran has leverage over Trump, too. I think there's a good chance we'll end up with another of Trump's retreats like the replacement for NAFTA: a few small changes but basically the same. Yes, basically the same - but "Trump" rebranded, which is enough to make things "great again"… Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marcusarelus Posted July 20, 2019 Share Posted July 20, 2019 1 hour ago, bristolboy said: And you think that's not going to have political consequences at home. Trump promised not to start any more wars. This would not be popular in the USA. Americans are no longer so foolish as to believe that Mideast Wars are going to be short and sweet. I thought we were talking about allies cooperating in an action about Iran? Nothing Trump does at home or anywhere else will be popular at home or on Thai Visa. Still he'll get elected again and that won't be popular either so they will try another way to remove him from office as elections don't seem to work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bristolboy Posted July 20, 2019 Share Posted July 20, 2019 2 minutes ago, marcusarelus said: I thought we were talking about allies cooperating in an action about Iran? Nothing Trump does at home or anywhere else will be popular at home or on Thai Visa. Still he'll get elected again and that won't be popular either so they will try another way to remove him from office as elections don't seem to work. He'll get re-elected? Really that's such a sure thing? Because the electorate won't care enough about getting dragged into another conflict in the Mideast? Why do you think Trump didn't attack Iranian missile sites after the US drone was shot down? In fact, why do you think he thanked Iran for shooting down the drone and not a plane filled with Americans? He dreads going to war. He knows what it means politically. Americans remember all too well the Iraq War and the promises that it would be over quickly. Trump is in a pickle and the Europeans aren't going to bail him out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
candide Posted July 20, 2019 Share Posted July 20, 2019 1 hour ago, marcusarelus said: Iran will be dealt with by a coalition of the willing to include Britain, USA, Saudi Arabia, Israel and France who will sanction Iran until something breaks. Or the USA, Israel and Saudi Arabia and Britain go it alone. No need to bail out Trump. USA has not needed bailing out since 1776. Vietnam or North Korea or Iraq were never a threat to the USA homeland. The Israelis are too smart to be involved in much more than lip service, the British will not make the same mistake as before and are already deep in $#!£ with Brexit, and the French will never participate. So it will likely be Saudi Arabia, UAE, plus the Polish and Hungarian navy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
candide Posted July 20, 2019 Share Posted July 20, 2019 19 hours ago, snoop1130 said: “They (the United States) also don’t want to bear the financial burden.” As usual Trump want others to pay for his stupid initiative. The other countries are not suckers. It seems there is a recurring pattern: Mexico will pay for the wall, other countries will finance the peace plan, etc... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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