Allies play hard to get on U.S. proposal to protect oil shipping lanes

[PhonThong]

17 hours ago, from the home of CC said:

As said earlier the trust is gone,  imo any other president would of gotten some support. And any other president wouldn't have engineered the U.S. into this situation in the first place..

Glad you feel that way. It's not U.S. ships the Iranians are seizing. I for one feel the U.S. Navy should stay out of it. Not the United States job to insure safe seas for the rest of the world.

[Opl]

1 hour ago, candide said:

The Israelis are too smart to be involved in much more than lip service, the British will not make the same mistake as before and are already deep in $#!£ with Brexit, and the French will never participate. So it will likely be Saudi Arabia, UAE, plus the Polish and Hungarian navy.

""Based on mutual cooperation between Saudi Arabia and the United States of America, and their desire to enhance everything that could preserve the security of the region and its stability... King Salman gave his approval to host American forces," a ministry spokesman was quoted by Saudi state news agency SPA as saying."

This new deployment provides the U.S. military with another location in the region to counter a possible threat from Iran.

[usviphotography]

17 hours ago, from the home of CC said:

As said earlier the trust is gone,  imo any other president would of gotten some support. And any other president wouldn't have engineered the U.S. into this situation in the first place..

And that is the beauty of Trump. Any other President, we'd be at war right now. But Trump has managed to triangulate the entire Necon-EU-USA Alliance to the point where the old rules no longer apply. Trump doesn't want a war with Iran and could care less whether Europe supports the Neocon's scheme to "police" the straights. Same with Trump's supporters. They voted for him to get out of the Mid East entirely. The people in America that want this police action in the straights hate Trump. They are the Bill Kristol's and the Mitt Romney's of the Republican Party. And he's managed to get these people who hate him in America to fight with a bunch of people that hate him in Europe over an issue he himself doesn't care about in the slightest, all the while weakening an obsolete military alliance which Trump would just as soon see fall apart anyway. Very Stable Genius. 

[PhonThong]

4 hours ago, marcusarelus said:

A coalition of 35 allies fought on the American side.  

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coalition_of_the_Gulf_War

They were led by the United States but fought on each others side. They   fought Iraq in the Gulf War from 1990–1991.

[watcharacters]

5 minutes ago, PhonThong said:

Glad you feel that way. It's not U.S. ships the Iranians are seizing. I for one feel the U.S. Navy should stay out of it. Not the United States job to insure safe seas for the rest of the world.

 

Not a good idea to have the USA act as the guardian for the rest of the world.

 

Let each country take care of itself.

[bristolboy]

44 minutes ago, usviphotography said:

And that is the beauty of Trump. Any other President, we'd be at war right now. But Trump has managed to triangulate the entire Necon-EU-USA Alliance to the point where the old rules no longer apply. Trump doesn't want a war with Iran and could care less whether Europe supports the Neocon's scheme to "police" the straights. Same with Trump's supporters. They voted for him to get out of the Mid East entirely. The people in America that want this police action in the straights hate Trump. They are the Bill Kristol's and the Mitt Romney's of the Republican Party. And he's managed to get these people who hate him in America to fight with a bunch of people that hate him in Europe over an issue he himself doesn't care about in the slightest, all the while weakening an obsolete military alliance which Trump would just as soon see fall apart anyway. Very Stable Genius. 

Any other sensible president, wouldn't have put himself in a position where going to war was a possibility. Why exactly did he send a flotilla to the Persian Gulf and put it in harm's way if he doesn't want a war with Iran? Does this very stable genius thinks he can predict what Iran will do? I guess to be a supporter of Trump it's probably necessary to suspend your common sense.

[jany123]

1 hour ago, PhonThong said:

Glad you feel that way. It's not U.S. ships the Iranians are seizing. I for one feel the U.S. Navy should stay out of it. Not the United States job to insure safe seas for the rest of the world.

However, It might be (correctly) argued that the United States has a responsibility to protect third parties from negative responses that their ill conceived, and internationally condemned actions created in the first place.... 

 

Y’all own it because yall broke it... so y’all should fix it (pay for it)... then y’all should go home

[spidermike007]

2 hours ago, billd766 said:

So tell us all why Iran is acting like this?

 

Obviously it has nothing to do with Trump pulling out of a fairly stable deal, sending a carrier group into shallow waters, sending B52s to the gulf area, sending extra troops as well, declaring sanctions on Iran and ANY country that has dealings with Iran.

 

So why in any gods name would you expect Iran to roll over and say sorry.

 

IMHO to de-escalate the problems perhaps the USA and especially the POTUS (who is the prime creator of the mess) should pull out of the region completely and lift the sanctions immediately.

 

No question the US is playing with fire. A war with Iran could cripple the US and bring horror to the economy. The degree of terror they could wreak on US soil could make 9/11 look like an intro. They just do not see it. And a lot of Trump's devotees do not seem to see it either. Iran is far more powerful an adversary than Iraq was, and how well did we do there? Does the US ever learn anything? Is the US capable of learning, with regard to it's rather hapless and bizarre foreign policy. Does it even have a foreign policy under Trump, with a dismantled State Department? 

 

He will not be re-elected. That is fairly certain. And he will probably spend many years in prison, after the SDNY gets finished with him. And the world will rejoice, that a hateful, criminal, racist bully was finally brought down. 

[jany123]

2 hours ago, Morty T said:

The EU (Germany in particular) needs US troops to protect them from the evil Russians. However the EU (Germany in particular) purchase over 80% of their oil and LNG from Russia. Now Trump points this out and he is the threat. Can't have it both ways, the US as we are constantly told is not the world's policeman, that is of course when its needed to be. Trump is correct, they (allies) can protect their own ships, the US shouldn't.

Not really... the US wants to maintain economic dominance of the region, whilst Germany wants to improve economic ties with their neighbors. The troops are little more than symbolic, and related to existing treaties, with an ever increasing percentage of Germans (above 40%) wanting the US troops and its regional influence gone, so they can get on with business without foreign interference.... American interference... so they don’t really want it both ways, that’s just the trumps spin.

 

similarly, the US wants economic dominance in Asia... ergo a trade war with China.

 

similarly, the US wants economic dominance in Latin America... ergo the latest about giving a truck full of money to Guido in Venezuela, which would fund a civil war.

 

similarly... well... it’s all about the Benjamins... and the schoolyard bully who steals lunch money from weaker players.

[marcusarelus]

1 hour ago, bristolboy said:

He'll get re-elected? Really that's such a sure thing? Because the electorate won't care enough about getting dragged into another conflict in the Mideast? Why do you think Trump didn't attack Iranian missile sites after the US drone was shot down? In fact, why do you think he thanked Iran for shooting down the drone and not a plane filled with Americans? He dreads going to war. He knows what it means politically. Americans remember all too well the Iraq War and the promises that it would be over quickly. Trump is in a pickle and the Europeans aren't going to bail him out.

Why do you keep saying the Europeans can bail out anyone?  The USA does not and has not needed Europe since before WWI.  Europe needs America.  Without USA NATO falls apart because they have not spent a fraction of their GDP on defense as was necessary - Russia will march in.  Americans remember all too well the 400,000 American deaths spent defending Europe the last time.   

[marcusarelus]

18 minutes ago, spidermike007 said:

He will not be (re-}elected. That is fairly certain.

Didn't you say that last time or have I confused you with another spidermike?  

[allen303]

4 hours ago, Opl said:

"In the May 2018 cable published by the Mail on Sunday, U.K. Ambassador Kim Darroch called Trump’s decision to abandon the international accord “an act of diplomatic vandalism, seemingly for ideological and personality reasons” because the pact “was Obama’s deal.”

He alleged the White House had no strategy for what would come after its withdrawal and “no sort of plan for reaching out to partners and allies.”

You are right about it being (Obama’s deal). Instead of Obama doing an executive agreement on Iran, he should have sent to congress as a treat. If passed by a two thirds majority it would have been a binding agreement, in a way. However, Obama chose to not send it to congress.  So, it was easy for Trump to end.

 

The reason Obama did not send to congress was because as they say, it stood about as much chance as a snowball in hell of passing.

Even if ratified by congress Trump could still have pulled out but it would have made thing much harder. Possibly another challenge in court.

 

 

In 1978 Jimmy Carter pulled out of the 1954 Mutual Defense Treaty with Taiwan without congress consent. He was challenged in court and the D.C. Circuit said Carter could decide whether to move forward with the treaty or not.

 

 

So bottom line it was an Obama agreement. Trump decided to make several copies and put in the congressional private bathrooms to help with the budget.

[Opl]

4 hours ago, bristolboy said:

I wonder how long it's going to be until American troops in Iraq start to be targeted.

interesting analysis .. back in 2013

"By reducing Iraq’s power and by allowing the Shia to become the dominant political force in Iraq, the US removed the main country balancing Iran, and helped bring to power a government that has at least some sympathies and links to Iran. So, Iran is by far the main strategic beneficiary of the Iraq War, which made it even more difficult for the US and its allies to deal with the country.» We should also bear in mind that it is not that hard to push a whole country into a foolish war.» J

[Baerboxer]

21 hours ago, MeePeeMai said:

It won't take long.  As soon as one of their ships or tankers hits a mine or is snagged by the Iranian R.G. then they will quickly change their tune.  

 

Those countries in NATO who honor their commitment to NATO will likely back the US more quickly than those who don't. The latter think they're entitled to American protection free.

[mikebike]

9 hours ago, Cryingdick said:

Let the "allies" play coy. America isn't threatened by Iran we have a presence and very few tankers in the area. We have oil at home the "allies" can defend their own vessels.  

Sounds perfect... why is the admin seemingly so focused on not going it alone and practically begging for consensus then?

[candide]

33 minutes ago, Baerboxer said:

 

Those countries in NATO who honor their commitment to NATO will likely back the US more quickly than those who don't. The latter think they're entitled to American protection free.

The Polish and Hungarian navies are already in the starting blocks. ????

[marcusarelus]

33 minutes ago, mikebike said:

Sounds perfect... why is the admin seemingly so focused on not going it alone and practically begging for consensus then?

They aren't.  What news have you been watching?  

[PhonThong]

3 hours ago, jany123 said:

Not really... the US wants to maintain economic dominance of the region, whilst Germany wants to improve economic ties with their neighbors. The troops are little more than symbolic, and related to existing treaties, with an ever increasing percentage of Germans (above 40%) wanting the US troops and its regional influence gone, so they can get on with business without foreign interference.... American interference... so they don’t really want it both ways, that’s just the trumps spin.

 

similarly, the US wants economic dominance in Asia... ergo a trade war with China.

 

similarly, the US wants economic dominance in Latin America... ergo the latest about giving a truck full of money to Guido in Venezuela, which would fund a civil war.

 

similarly... well... it’s all about the Benjamins... and the schoolyard bully who steals lunch money from weaker players.

Then why doesn't Germany, that has 1000's of U.S. troops stationed there. Demand that they leave? Pretty sure you don't know what you are talking about.

[PhonThong]

3 hours ago, jany123 said:

However, It might be (correctly) argued that the United States has a responsibility to protect third parties from negative responses that their ill conceived, and internationally condemned actions created in the first place.... 

 

Y’all own it because yall broke it... so y’all should fix it (pay for it)... then y’all should go home

Really? The U.S. didn't seize any Iranian Oil tanker.

[jany123]

6 minutes ago, PhonThong said:

Then why doesn't Germany, that has 1000's of U.S. troops stationed there. Demand that they leave? Pretty sure you don't know what you are talking about.

Because it is bound by existing treaties.... damn... that was easy!

[jany123]

6 minutes ago, PhonThong said:

Really? The U.S. didn't seize any Iranian Oil tanker.

I’m pretty sure i saw a poster make a comment that covers this, not too long ago.... ah... here we go

 

9 minutes ago, PhonThong said:

 Pretty sure you don't know what you are talking about.

Because....  if you think that the US is trying to induce allies to join them in a quasi military action against Iran, since the Grace was seized, then your definitely in denial.

[bristolboy]

4 hours ago, marcusarelus said:

Why do you keep saying the Europeans can bail out anyone?  The USA does not and has not needed Europe since before WWI.  Europe needs America.  Without USA NATO falls apart because they have not spent a fraction of their GDP on defense as was necessary - Russia will march in.  Americans remember all too well the 400,000 American deaths spent defending Europe the last time.   

Here's what I wrote: "Trump is in a pickle and the Europeans aren't going to bail him out."

Where did I say anything about the USA needing the Europeans. Or do you believe that Trump and the USA are one and the same thing? It's a kind of confusion his followers are prone to. As is he.

[bristolboy]

2 hours ago, marcusarelus said:

They aren't.  What news have you been watching?  

Do you understand that the USA is trying to enlist other nations to help patrol the Gulf? I think a better question is what news have you been not watching or not reading?

 U.S. officials will speak to members of the Washington diplomatic corps on Friday about a new initiative to promote freedom of navigation and maritime security around the Strait of Hormuz, the State Department said on Wednesday.

 

One fifth of the world's oil supply transits through this area and navigating freely through the strait is critical for the stability of the international economy.

 

"A multinational effort is needed to address this global challenge and ensure the safe passage of vessels," the State Department said in a statement, adding the briefing would be conducted by Defence and State Department personnel and would be closed to the news media.

https://news.thaivisa.com/article/37778/us-officials-to-brief-diplomats-on-maritime-security-initiative-for-gulf

 

[marcusarelus]

9 minutes ago, bristolboy said:

Here's what I wrote: "Trump is in a pickle and the Europeans aren't going to bail him out."

Where did I say anything about the USA needing the Europeans. Or do you believe that Trump and the USA are one and the same thing? It's a kind of confusion his followers are prone to. As is he.

You wrote, "Trump is in a pickle and the Europeans aren't going to bail him out"  That implies Trump needs Europeans.  Trump and the USA are one thing in that he is the President and Commander in Chief.  I'm not a Trump follower.  I don't like the guy.  But like most Americans the feel the alternatives are worse.  Trump did not win the last election his opponent lost it.  Same going to happen this time.  America does not want Slave Reparations, rampant feminism, working people paying people not to work and other socialism programs.  Nor do they want creepy old men grabbing women (not Trump the other old guy) and trying to say it's OK.   

[marcusarelus]

3 minutes ago, bristolboy said:

Do you understand that the USA is trying to enlist other nations to help patrol the Gulf? I think a better question is what news have you been not watching or not reading?

 U.S. officials will speak to members of the Washington diplomatic corps on Friday about a new initiative to promote freedom of navigation and maritime security around the Strait of Hormuz, the State Department said on Wednesday.

 

One fifth of the world's oil supply transits through this area and navigating freely through the strait is critical for the stability of the international economy.

 

"A multinational effort is needed to address this global challenge and ensure the safe passage of vessels," the State Department said in a statement, adding the briefing would be conducted by Defence and State Department personnel and would be closed to the news media.

https://news.thaivisa.com/article/37778/us-officials-to-brief-diplomats-on-maritime-security-initiative-for-gulf

 

Another poster wrote, "admin seemingly so focused on not going it alone and practically begging for consensus then?"

 

I wrote, "The USA is not practically begging for a consensus." 

[bristolboy]

4 minutes ago, marcusarelus said:

You wrote, "Trump is in a pickle and the Europeans aren't going to bail him out"  That implies Trump needs Europeans.  Trump and the USA are one thing in that he is the President and Commander in Chief.  I'm not a Trump follower.  I don't like the guy.  But like most Americans the feel the alternatives are worse.  

Another "I don't like Trump but..." One day I'm going to run across one of those I believe.

 

Politically Trump needs them. Right now the US only has the assistance of the UK. And that ain't much. The US navy really doesn't have the right kind of naval craft  there to do the job right. And the more help he gets the more legitimate his effort looks. Can't imagine most are going to cooperate. Not going to bail trump out of the mess he created. 

[EVENKEEL]

2 minutes ago, bristolboy said:

Another "I don't like Trump but..." One day I'm going to run across one of those I believe.

 

Politically Trump needs them. Right now the US only has the assistance of the UK. And that ain't much. The US navy really doesn't have the right kind of naval craft  there to do the job right. And the more help he gets the more legitimate his effort looks. Can't imagine most are going to cooperate. Not going to bail trump out of the mess he created. 

What type of Ships do we need that we don't have?

[bristolboy]

2 minutes ago, EVENKEEL said:

What type of Ships do we need that we don't have?

If it had enough there, why would it be asking other countries to contribute theirs?

[EVENKEEL]

2 minutes ago, bristolboy said:

If it had enough there, why would it be asking other countries to contribute theirs?

Because it's in everyone's best interest to keep shipping lanes open. 

[bristolboy]

So the US doesn't enough ships to keep shipping lanes open. And it needs those of other nations.

U.S. Forming New Persian Gulf Plan, Enlisting Other Countries to Keep Watch

An emerging U.S. plan for deterring attacks on tankers that Washington blames on Iran calls for ships from Arab, Asian and other foreign nations to stand watch in the Persian Gulf and the Gulf of Oman while maritime patrol planes fly overhead, U.S. officials said.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-forming-new-persian-gulf-plan-enlisting-other-countries-to-keep-watch-11561656030