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Fighting for justice: Dutch engineer with cancer interviewed by Thai media


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17 minutes ago, Rocket Hawks said:

My god, you are complaining about 300 baht every 3 months????? That’s an insane deal for treating prostate cancer. He should be so lucky. Try $30k usd per treatment in the US.

 

Wake up folks, if you are not a Thai citizen, you should not be able to pay the same low rates that Thais do. You are lucky enough that they let you live here. 

 

Some people are so cheap. It’s embarrassing. No wonder the Thai gov wants to kick us out 

 

If everyone had this attitude Thai hospitals would soon end up as bad as those in the US. 

Do you really think he is getting $30k of treatment for 300 Baht?

 

 

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10 minutes ago, Thaidream said:

Medical care is a human right- until all countries realise this- places like the US and Thailand will continue to treat people differently.  Thailand could easily allow long stay foreigners to purchase into the Thai Medical System via Thai Social Security then there would be no ability by the Hospitals to try and capitalize on such inequality.

 

No Hospital should ever be allowed to profit off the illness of another nor should any  Pharmasecutical Company.  Also, throw in Insurance which exists only to profit from a person's misery.

I have sampled both government and private hospitals in Thailand. The government one gave me a hip replacement that was not needed so effectively crippled me. The private hospital was much better but way more expensive. So which one was it my right to have?

If there is no profit, why would anyone do it. Would you become a doctor and only work for food and accommodation?

If you invented a new drug that cost a million pounds to develop with no certainty that it would work at all, would you be happy just to get your money back? 

 

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7 minutes ago, chang1 said:

have sampled both government and private hospitals in Thailand. The government one gave me a hip replacement that was not needed so effectively crippled me. The private hospital was much better but way more expensive. So which one was it my right to have?

If there is no profit, why would anyone do it. Would you become a doctor and only work for food and accommodation?

If you invented a new drug that cost a million pounds to develop with no certainty that it would work at all, would you be happy just to get your money back? 

There is such a thing as Non Profit- meaning one can charge for the expense of running the hospital and the staff are paid reasonable wages.  The Hospital and or provider  files their taxes as a non profit institution.

 

People who go into medicine take an Oath to do no harm and that includes not pricing the average person out of the market for healthcare.  There are way too many involved in medicine that see it as a get rich scheme and do not really care about the ill.

 

As far as drug companies- most receive grants from the Government for research and development or  are completely funded by a Government Pharmaceutical Organization.

The problem is that Big Pharma not only wanbts the grants but wants to chage extortionmate prices for live saving medicines.

 

Thro in the fact that there is an unholy alliance bewteen Big Pharma; For Profit Hospitals and Insurance and the only loser is the patient.

 

 

 

Medical care is a basic human right.  Too many people have been brainwashed by the For Profit medical industryinto believing that it is a privledge.  It is not- it is a right= All people have the right to live.

 

Until Governments Worldwide stop the insanity of allowing for profit medicine and the loose regulation of Big Pharma patients will die from lack of funds and proper treatment.  xountries like the UK; Japan; and most of the EU have had non profit and universal healthcare for decades.  It works

 

 

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19 minutes ago, Thaidream said:

There is such a thing as Non Profit- meaning one can charge for the expense of running the hospital and the staff are paid reasonable wages.  The Hospital and or provider  files their taxes as a non profit institution.

 

People who go into medicine take an Oath to do no harm and that includes not pricing the average person out of the market for healthcare.  There are way too many involved in medicine that see it as a get rich scheme and do not really care about the ill.

 

As far as drug companies- most receive grants from the Government for research and development or  are completely funded by a Government Pharmaceutical Organization.

The problem is that Big Pharma not only wanbts the grants but wants to chage extortionmate prices for live saving medicines.

 

Thro in the fact that there is an unholy alliance bewteen Big Pharma; For Profit Hospitals and Insurance and the only loser is the patient.

 

 

 

Medical care is a basic human right.  Too many people have been brainwashed by the For Profit medical industryinto believing that it is a privledge.  It is not- it is a right= All people have the right to live.

 

Until Governments Worldwide stop the insanity of allowing for profit medicine and the loose regulation of Big Pharma patients will die from lack of funds and proper treatment.  xountries like the UK; Japan; and most of the EU have had non profit and universal healthcare for decades.  It works

 

 

It is the doctor that takes the oath and not the hospital and it is the hospital that has set the fees and not the doctor. There is a big difference between the two. Private hospitals are a business the same as any other business which can set their own fees but the government hospitals are a different thing and the fees are set by the government, but you will always find a difference in the fees for locals and tourists even at government hospitals because those hospitals are subsidized by the government for the local people. Australia is the same, it has one set of fees for locals and another set of fees for the tourists because the locals pay into the medicare scheme through their taxes and the tourist do not.

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5 hours ago, Bob12345 said:

In another thread about hospital pricing everyone is complaining about them making a profit off the most vulnerable people in their worst situation.

 

Now someone stands up against being unlawfully ripped off and again its not good.

 

What do you want? Just complaining in every situation and never doing anything besides complaining?

And in several other threads hospitals are reported to be stuck with patients who run up large bills, they don't have insurance and they don't know anyone, including family, who is willing to help out.

 

Then the TV champions of justice suggest the patient do a runner. And as I've said before, those of us who actually pay our bills end up paying more to make up for the losses created by those who can't be bothered with insurance and whose family and friends apparently know them too well to offer help.

 

One guy in several threads has announced that he want his independence so he doesn't want to buy insurance. Of course if this independent hero ever gets seriously ill or has an accident and is unable to pay the hospital, that's OK because that person is bravely defending his independence.

 

The sense of exceptionalism and entitlement among the cabal of justice seeking farangs who have nothing in common other than their farangness isn't based on a thirst for justice. 

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millions of thais have less money than falang. double pricing supports the poor. every thai accepts this. that guy should be more careful. if he continues to make problems they just cancel his visa and deport him. they must not give any reason.

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I do support what he is doing in as much as it should remind the rest of us to be careful. As far as the Thai attitude towards the foreigner is concerned I don't think it will make any difference.

Do hospitals display their charges?

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28 minutes ago, Russell17au said:

t is the doctor that takes the oath and not the hospital and it is the hospital that has set the fees and not the doctor. There is a big difference between the two. Private hospitals are a business the same as any other business which can set their own fees but the government hospitals are a different thing and the fees are set by the government, but you will always find a difference in the fees for locals and tourists even at government hospitals because those hospitals are subsidized by the government for the local people. Australia is the same, it has one set of fees for locals and another set of fees for the tourists because the locals pay into the medicare scheme through their taxes and the tourist do not.

Doctors take the Oath but Medical institutions are providing a place for doctors to practice and should be subject to the Oath.

 

HOwever, the solution is simple- Tax For profit Hospitals at the highest rate possible and exempt Non Profit Hospitals.

 

The solution in Thailand is to allow anyone with a one year Visa/Extension to  pay into the Thai Social Security Scheme.  In Austrlia, I am certain that long stay individuals have residence status which allows them into Aussie Hospitals with no double pricing.

 

 

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33 minutes ago, Thaidream said:

Doctors take the Oath but Medical institutions are providing a place for doctors to practice and should be subject to the Oath.

 

HOwever, the solution is simple- Tax For profit Hospitals at the highest rate possible and exempt Non Profit Hospitals.

 

The solution in Thailand is to allow anyone with a one year Visa/Extension to  pay into the Thai Social Security Scheme.  In Austrlia, I am certain that long stay individuals have residence status which allows them into Aussie Hospitals with no double pricing.

 

 

You are wrong because doctors have their own clinics and do not have to attend hospitals. The private hospitals are taxed the same as all the other businesses. There is a big thing that you are forgetting and that is the private hospital must find the money and pay for all the equipement that it uses and the government hospitals equipement is paid for by the government. If you want the private hospitals to close because they are not allowed to make money to be able to purchase the new equipement then the whole medical treatment system will collapse because if you close the private hospitals the government will not have enough money to build and operate the new hospitals that would be needed to have sufficient hospitals for the public to use.

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10 minutes ago, Russell17au said:

ou are wrong because doctors have their own clinics and do not have to attend hospitals. The private hospitals are taxed the same as all the other businesses. There is a big thing that you are forgetting and that is the private hospital must find the money and pay for all the equipement that it uses and the government hospitals equipement is paid for by the government. If you want the private hospitals to close because they are not allowed to make money to be able to purchase the new equipement then the whole medical treatment system will collapse because if you close the private hospitals the government will not have enough money to build and operate the new hospitals that would be needed to have sufficient hospitals for the public to use.

That's what the private hospitals want you to believe- the real truth is that  not for profit hospitals will operate on  a pricing level way below private hospitals and  to compete they will have to lower their prices  .

 

As far as equipment goes- that is also overpriced and with a not for profit system that equipment  is also lower.

 

The bottom line is that  if the only real purchaser is not for profit hospitals and  private hospitals that compete- the rrest of the  industry to include meds; equiptment and private insurance will have to lower their prices simply because no one will buy at the current levels. They either go lower or go out of business.

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4 minutes ago, Thaidream said:

That's what the private hospitals want you to believe- the real truth is that  not for profit hospitals will operate on  a pricing level way below private hospitals and  to compete they will have to lower their prices  .

 

As far as equipment goes- that is also overpriced and with a not for profit system that equipment  is also lower.

 

The bottom line is that  if the only real purchaser is not for profit hospitals and  private hospitals that compete- the rrest of the  industry to include meds; equiptment and private insurance will have to lower their prices simply because no one will buy at the current levels. They either go lower or go out of business.

They go out of business then there is no equipement for any of the hospitals including the government hospitals, so it ends up a bloody big mess with many people not being able to access hospitals. The equipement manufacturers charge a higher price for the equipement so that they can supply the government hospitals at a below cost price because it is the price that the private hospitals pay subsidizes the price of the equipement for the government hospitals plus they would not be able to research and design new and better equipement for all the hospitals. This is not as simple as you make it out to be. As for the private health insurance, well that is a different thing, but they are an insurance company and all insurance companies are only interested in saving money for themselves.

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1 hour ago, Thaidream said:

That's what the private hospitals want you to believe- the real truth is that  not for profit hospitals will operate on  a pricing level way below private hospitals and  to compete they will have to lower their prices  .

 

As far as equipment goes- that is also overpriced and with a not for profit system that equipment  is also lower.

 

The bottom line is that  if the only real purchaser is not for profit hospitals and  private hospitals that compete- the rrest of the  industry to include meds; equiptment and private insurance will have to lower their prices simply because no one will buy at the current levels. They either go lower or go out of business.

Why would anyone build a hospital if it could never make a profit? 

Why would any company design and manufacture medical equipment if they cannot make a profit?

People are greedy, money is a great incentive to do things. Telling people they get the same no matter how hard they work will just lead to lower productivity and standards.

I got a hip replacement at a bargain price but it was not needed. Just because health care is cheap does not mean it is adequate. Driving away the best people into other industries will just drive down standards. 

"They either go lower or go out of business." Or they move into another profitable business leaving healthcare to those that can cut the most corners and risk the consequences.

Competition is the best way to get better value for money. If due to this publicly the hospital looses many patients to another local hospital, it will be forced to improve. Where as if he did not make a fuss or just accepted the refund it would be encouraged to over charge even more.

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7 hours ago, chang1 said:

Being English I can understand that just getting a refund is not enough. He is trying to stop this happening to others in his position which we should all be thankful for. 300 Baht is probably a large sum to a goat herder. Even if the amount is trivial he is also fighting for his self respect. It surprises me how many people retire in Thailand and take on the Thais attitude about not caring or doing anything about being ripped off. To me it  is a very selfish attitude - "why should I fight for someone else, 300  Baht is nothing to me?". Maybe if more people did some whinging and then actually followed through with actions, things would improve, especially for those less fortunate.

Good luck to him, he is more of a man than all those saying why bother.

Bravo - well said!

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6 hours ago, chang1 said:

If everyone had this attitude Thai hospitals would soon end up as bad as those in the US. 

Do you really think he is getting $30k of treatment for 300 Baht?

 

 

He is getting charged 300 baht for a "visit"  - a Thai would pay 50baht - that is what the fuss is about - plus the 15% for who knows what (VAT?) 

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4 hours ago, Thaidream said:

 

Medical treatment is not included in the Bill of Human Rights and there is no mention of finance in the Hippocratic Oath.

 

However often you repeat this stuff, its just not true.

 

Call Bill Gates, he runs a fund that's meant to change the world.

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6 hours ago, Thaidream said:

There is such a thing as Non Profit- meaning one can charge for the expense of running the hospital and the staff are paid reasonable wages.  The Hospital and or provider  files their taxes as a non profit institution.

 

People who go into medicine take an Oath to do no harm and that includes not pricing the average person out of the market for healthcare.  There are way too many involved in medicine that see it as a get rich scheme and do not really care about the ill.

 

As far as drug companies- most receive grants from the Government for research and development or  are completely funded by a Government Pharmaceutical Organization.

The problem is that Big Pharma not only wanbts the grants but wants to chage extortionmate prices for live saving medicines.

 

Thro in the fact that there is an unholy alliance bewteen Big Pharma; For Profit Hospitals and Insurance and the only loser is the patient.

 

 

 

Medical care is a basic human right.  Too many people have been brainwashed by the For Profit medical industryinto believing that it is a privledge.  It is not- it is a right= All people have the right to live.

 

Until Governments Worldwide stop the insanity of allowing for profit medicine and the loose regulation of Big Pharma patients will die from lack of funds and proper treatment.  xountries like the UK; Japan; and most of the EU have had non profit and universal healthcare for decades.  It works

 

 

"xountries like the UK; Japan; and most of the EU have had non profit and universal healthcare for decades.  It works"

 

Indeed it does (at least for the moment in the UK, and it has done for years - I don't know about anywhere else)

 

But, without getting political, there are certain parties/organisations/companies that would like to see the NHS dismantled/put into private hands - and all the profit that goes with it - for obvious reasons!

 

The topic is "Fighting For Justice", and one might well see the same headlines in the Uk. or the other countries that have been mentioned unless someone (?) puts a brake on this "medicine for profit" scenario.

 

Thailand boasts of its  standard of medical care but at  what price? When someone goes into a hospital with  a minor abrasion and gets charged 19,000 baht for ONE stitch, and doesn't complain because the insurance will pay for it, then the problem can only get worse. 

 

Consequently, I applaud this Dutch guy and his stand - 500 baht for a visit may well escalate to 5000 baht for a visit if left unchecked. I personally know of one "farang" lady that was charged 4000 baht for a doctor to just say "Hello!" (OK - it was in a private hospital) before he would even make an examination! And after an overnight stay, and various "tests" there was no positive diagnosis, and as she was feeling better the following morning, she checked out (with a few overpriced painkillers) and the problem resolved itself the same day - no doubt if she'd stayed in, there would have been further "tests" at exorbitant prices and therein lies another problem  - if this hospital (Chain) can charge such high prices on the back of Insurance claims, then the cost of Insurance rockets.so that it is beyond the ability of many people to afford it.

 

For example, the annual cost of Health Insurance for a 70+ year old ex pat in Thailand can be in excess of 100,000 baht per annum - completely out of the reach of many people, and when you factor in the "pre existing conditions" clauses, completely worthless in many cases.

 

The answer (IMHO) is to have (private) hospitals reined in regarding their blatant overcharges as in the case in question, and a body set up to constantly monitor the situation - not just pay up a bit of "compo" when they are found out, but substantial fines passed out when necessary , and the income from such fines passed down to the Government Hospitals, that in my experience are doing a sterling job with limited resources. 

 

 

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20 hours ago, khunJeroen said:

This is so weird. Regardless of his condition why would you even care they charge 300 THB per 3 months visit or even if it was 3000? Maybe if its 30K he may have a point. Guess no insurance either.

 

 

 

it's a matter of principle,the people should also reject the "special" pricing for foreigners.this system sucks

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21 hours ago, Rocket Hawks said:

My god, you are complaining about 300 baht every 3 months????? That’s an insane deal for treating prostate cancer. He should be so lucky. Try $30k usd per treatment in the US.

 

Wake up folks, if you are not a Thai citizen, you should not be able to pay the same low rates that Thais do. You are lucky enough that they let you live here. 

 

Some people are so cheap. It’s embarrassing. No wonder the Thai gov wants to kick us out 

 

Look at the initial post.

 

His bill has an extra 300 baht (circled) the Thai writing states the 300 baht fee is because he is a foreigner. 

Do hospitals in America do that? Charge an average days salary as an extra for not being American?

 

I think your comprension of the issue is embarrassing, but i don't think they will kick you out of the country for it.

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20 hours ago, pattayahenry said:

millions of thais have less money than falang. double pricing supports the poor. every thai accepts this. that guy should be more careful. if he continues to make problems they just cancel his visa and deport him. they must not give any reason.

Based on your analogy prices should be based on what you can afford, an interesting and flawed way of looking at it i suggest. 

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23 hours ago, chang1 said:

I don't see the connection between overcharging and the need for insurance.

If you cannot afford the insurance then you certainly can't afford the hospital bill if you get seriously I'll or injured. So why take the risk of staying?

In the UK, everyone gets charged the same in private hospitals which, as in Thailand are commercial enterprises. NHS hospitals are paid for out of our taxes so some foreigners are charged the full cost of treatment.

I presume he was either treated in a private hospital or should be charged as a Thai due to his status.

Hauhin hospital is a government hospital so why foreigners expect to pay the bills same as Thai. Even in EU and US cann't do that for foreigners. 

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18 hours ago, Traubert said:

Medical treatment is not included in the Bill of Human Rights and there is no mention of finance in the Hippocratic Oath.

 

However often you repeat this stuff, its just not true.

 

Call Bill Gates, he runs a fund that's meant to change the world.

Then apparently you do not believe medical care is a human right?  However- most Western countries do as they provide medical care at no or little cost to their citizens and residents.

 

Uhe univeresal statement of rights  and most constitutions indicate people have a right to life.  How can they live if medical care is beyond their ability to pay?

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