Latest Word on No Embassy Income Letters Allowed Now

[SailingHome]

1 minute ago, geoffbezoz said:

What a great pity and a disservice to it's nationals that the UK Bangkok embassy would not do that.

And the USA. What? The official letter annually of benefits amount coming and the end of year summary are FAKE? Come on.

[Martyp]

7 minutes ago, SailingHome said:

And the USA. What? The official letter annually of benefits amount coming and the end of year summary are FAKE? Come on.

When I first arrived here I got an income affidavit from the US Consulate in Bangkok. You filled in a form stating your yearly income. (Pick a number . . . any number). The notary would notarize it. They never looked at a bank state, pension letter, . . . nothing. I don’t know what other countries do but the US Consulate did not check that the income you claimed was true. They obviously didn’t want to implement a procedure so they stopped issuing the affidavits.

[Martyp]

56 minutes ago, SailingHome said:

Tried that. Wasted days and money getting it deposited here (stuck in bed.) Wells Fargo will transfer in 24 hours. So much better.

 

So... 3 mo of deposits to here and 6 mo of transfers to here from USA. 9mo. I am hectically wrapped about incline please, yes?

I was a Wells Fargo customer for 35 years. I loved banking with them in California. Be careful with them in Thailand though. They have great fraud detection. When I tried to make my first wire transfer to Thailand they froze all my accounts. That would normally be OK. The problem was that they wouldn’t unfreeze them unless I returned to the USA and showed then two forms of ID. While in Thailand I gave them my verbal password which they acknowledged was correct but they still wouldn’t release my accounts. I flew back to California to fix this. Later I got them to reimburse me for the expenses. At least two years ago they didn’t have a way to validate my identity remotely from overseas. I switched to Bank of America.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

24 minutes ago, SailingHome said:

And the USA. What? The official letter annually of benefits amount coming and the end of year summary are FAKE? Come on.

 

You need to either deposit funds in a Thai bank or show proof of the monthly foreign transfers, as others here have advised.

 

Your and anyone else's Social Security statements pretty much will mean nothing as far as satisfying Thai Immigration as primary documentation of income.

 

And for whatever method you use for monthly foreign transfers into a Thai bank account, make sure the receiving Thai bank is recognizing and coding them as FOREIGN transfers... Otherwise, it's going to cause you problems. Generally speaking, traditional international (SWIFT) wire transfers coming into Thailand should not have any problem about that.

 

Edited July 24, 2019 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[JJ Madcow]

1 hour ago, wgdanson said:

Did the Danish go back to issuing them?

 

No, Danish embassy dont issue them any more.

 

But if you on a social pension from Denmark, Then the social pension office send a document to the Danish Embassy Bangkok. (secure E-Mail.)
That the Danish embassy stamp and write "Document confirmed genuine" on.

I use it this month at Si Racha Immigration for my Rietenment Extension.

Have talk to few other Danish people around Thailand that have use it is well.

 

Kindly.

[wgdanson]

39 minutes ago, geoffbezoz said:

What a great pity and a disservice to it's nationals that the UK Bangkok embassy would not do that.

And up the State Pension to be £1700 a month!.

[Jingthing]

50 minutes ago, SailingHome said:

Coool. So I just give up being a USA citizen and benefits and become a Dane? That is actually tempting

 

Why would they take you? 

[onera1961]

36 minutes ago, Martyp said:

When I first arrived here I got an income affidavit from the US Consulate in Bangkok. You filled in a form stating your yearly income. (Pick a number . . . any number). The notary would notarize it. They never looked at a bank state, pension letter, . . . nothing. I don’t know what other countries do but the US Consulate did not check that the income you claimed was true. They obviously didn’t want to implement a procedure so they stopped issuing the affidavits.

US consulates never checked any documents. They only issued a sworn statements under penalty of perjury. That document is meaningless even in he US because First Amendment already protects lying and a prosecutor has to prove that by lying it has harmed the plaintiff in someway. Most US prosecutors will not touch such a case unless it involves other criminal activities subsequent to obtaining your the sworn statement. If you can get a sworn statement  saying that you're a time travelling werewolf, nobody can prosecute you.

Edited July 24, 2019 by onera1961

[ThaiBunny]

36 minutes ago, Martyp said:

I don’t know what other countries do but the US Consulate did not check that the income you claimed was true

All they certified was that you had made a statement saying that it was true

[ThaiBunny]

50 minutes ago, SailingHome said:

And the USA. What? The official letter annually of benefits amount coming and the end of year summary are FAKE? Come on.

Don't you understand that it's possible to download the letter from MySSA and using very simple tools change the amount to be whatever you want it to be. Similarly you can edit a digital copy of any document and make it say something else

[BertM]

1 hour ago, BoBoTheClown said:

I hate it when people mention 12 months of transfers. The Police Order isn't 12 months old yet.

 

So sorry for you that you hate what some people write. The IO officer I spoke with at my office told me 12 mths. No leniency. Just trying to warn the OP. It would be a shame for him to wait until December only get denied. The order I believe went into effect last December. Enjoy...

[SailingHome]

Thanks all. I think I have it sorted. Chat more in NOV.

 

[tutsiwarrior]

any news regarding the combination method (income + bank deposit) for retirement extensions? the old rules have not been affected by the recent changes as someone indicated earlier on another thread (does not apply to extensions based on marriage)...

 

 

 

Edited July 24, 2019 by tutsiwarrior

[perconrad]

18 hours ago, ThaiBunny said:

The Danes presumably have some way of independently verifying that the pension statements being presented are not forgeries

Your pension company or the government have to send the pension statements directly to the Danish Embassy in Bangkok and the statements shall be in the English language. They charge thb 1.000 pr statement or 5.000 if the statement is in danish.

[Curt1591]

21 hours ago, ubonjoe said:

If you can get proof of income from your embassy it will be accepted.

If not you have to show the 40k baht or 65 baht needed for your extension going into a Thai bank from abroad every month.

Discussing the situation, with both Thai Immigration officers, and US Embassy staff, according to both, Immigration wants documented evidence of income, whether from Thai Bank, or from from the embassies. The US embassy will not notarise such documentation.

I would like to here from someone who has succeeded with the extension, or application, with a simple letter stating that the income is there.

[ubonjoe]

46 minutes ago, Curt1591 said:

I would like to here from someone who has succeeded with the extension, or application, with a simple letter stating that the income is there.

Immigration will not accept any letter you can have without a stamp from a embassy on it.

This from the police order.

Immigration will only accept proof that you have been transferring your income into the country from abroad from a Thai bank,

[OJAS]

20 hours ago, geoffbezoz said:

What a great pity and a disservice to it's nationals that the UK Bangkok embassy would not do that.

 

20 hours ago, ThaiBunny said:

The Danes presumably have some way of independently verifying that the pension statements being presented are not forgeries

As should easily also have the British Embassy IMHO if only they were prepared to set their minds to the task in hand. In this connection, all that they would need to do IMHO would be to establish a secure intra-governmental online link with HMRC into which they could enter our NI number to verify that the figures contained in P60 end-of-tax-year certificates provided by our occupational pension providers and submitted by us as evidence tallied with those supplied by our pension providers to HMRC as part of their annual payroll monitoring.

 

Likewise, in the case of those of us in receipt of the State Pension, it should equally be possible for a similar secure intra-governmental online link with the IPC to be established, into which the Embassy could enter our NI number to verify that we were still in receipt of our perpetually-frozen State Pension at the rate stated in the original letter which we had received from the IPC (way back in the mists of time in all probability) and also submitted by us as evidence.

 

Any potential objections to the Embassy using our NI number for these purposes arising from the General Data Protection Regulation could easily, I would have thought, be overcome by requiring our signature on a suitably-worded consent form.

 

In fact, I emailed Sara Peth at the Embassy nearly a couple of months ago enquiring as to whether the Embassy had given any consideration to the possibility of establishing secure intra-governmental links with HMRC and the IPC in reaching their decision to pull their income confirmation service. Needless to say – and probably not surprisingly – I am still awaiting her reply.

 

Edited July 25, 2019 by OJAS

[geoffbezoz]

10 minutes ago, OJAS said:

 

As should easily also have the British Embassy IMHO if only they were prepared to set their minds to the task in hand. In this connection, all that they would need to do IMHO would be to establish a secure intra-governmental online link with HMRC into which they could enter our NI number to verify that the figures contained in P60 end-of-tax-year certificates provided by our occupational pension providers and submitted by us as evidence tallied with those supplied by our pension providers to HMRC as part of their annual payroll monitoring.

 

Likewise, in the case of those of us in receipt of the State Pension, it should equally be possible for a similar secure intra-governmental online link with the IPC to be established, into which the Embassy could enter our NI number to verify that we were still in receipt of our perpetually-frozen State Pension at the rate stated in the original letter which we had received from the IPC (way back in the mists of time in all probability) and also submitted by us as evidence.

 

Any potential objections to the Embassy using our NI number for these purposes arising from the General Data Protection Regulation could easily, I would have thought, be overcome by requiring our signature on a suitably-worded consent form.

 

In fact, I emailed Sara Peth at the Embassy nearly a couple of months ago enquiring as to whether the Embassy had given any consideration to the possibility of establishing secure intra-governmental links with HMRC and the IPC in reaching their decision to pull their income confirmation service. Needless to say – and probably not surprisingly – I am still awaiting her reply.

 

Yes I am also waiting for a reply from many weeks ago too that I sent in a similar vein.  I pointed out why is it that they are refusing to verify pensions that are recorded by HMRC due to them quoting the data protection act yet on the other hand the government sells DVLA data of driving license holders to third parties ?

[Thaidream]

19 hours ago, ThaiBunny said:

Don't you understand that it's possible to download the letter from MySSA and using very simple tools change the amount to be whatever you want it to be. Similarly you can edit a digital copy of any document and make it say something else

That is why there is primary, secondary and tertiary evidence that is presented to veerify income.   The Primary evidence is a letter from the pension provider with the company seal and amounts.  The secondary evidence is a direct deposit in the same amount as on the primary letter either thru a US Bank with the same exact amount or a Thai Bank.  Tertiary evidence is how the money is dispensed- normall ATM receipts showing the exact location where the funds are dispersed and on the receipt it shows the last 4 digits of the ATM card. In addition, the ATM cards are presented.

 

I would also add that when an affadavit is sworn at a US Embassy- and the Oath is given  it is a Federal (not a State) offense to lie under the United States Code.  This is the same code that is used to prosecute perjury in a court room; falsifying documents and lying to the FBI or US Congress.  These are proeceduted.

 

The US Embassy could eas0ily provide an income affadavit by asking people to show the 'proof'. Since they are all native speakers of English reading a pension letter backed by secondary and tertiary evidence would be easy .  Then with the Oath- it established a penalty for lying and forgery.  There is an FBI office in the US Embassy that could easily verify, if needed, and investigate any issues.

 

IMO- if the Us Embassy would follow the above procedure and explain it to Thai Immigration- these letters would be accepted.  The Us Embassy simply refuses to do it and there is no excuse for not wanting to assist US citrizens.  In fact,  by discontinuing the letter - the US Embassy has lost income and many Amerians in Thailand have been terribly inconvienced and  harmed financially. In addition- insteady helping the US Banking industry retain  deposits- they are assisting the Thai banking industry gain money.  IMO-  stopping the letters is and was a Lose-Lose scenario  for both the citizen and the US Government.

[Anotify]

Most people would have a simple answer to a simple question by just going to their embassy's web site. 

Being from US i know they don't issue letters any more. Good luck. 

[ThaiWai]

On 7/24/2019 at 11:09 AM, SailingHome said:

I am USA citizen

Then start getting informed. Sign up for step alerts https://step.state.gov/

Then the Embassy Twitter feed. @ACSBKK

 

 

 

[DoktorC]

2 hours ago, Thaidream said:

That is why there is primary, secondary and tertiary evidence that is presented to veerify income.   The Primary evidence is a letter from the pension provider with the company seal and amounts.  The secondary evidence is a direct deposit in the same amount as on the primary letter either thru a US Bank with the same exact amount or a Thai Bank.  Tertiary evidence is how the money is dispensed- normall ATM receipts showing the exact location where the funds are dispersed and on the receipt it shows the last 4 digits of the ATM card. In addition, the ATM cards are presented.

 

I would also add that when an affadavit is sworn at a US Embassy- and the Oath is given  it is a Federal (not a State) offense to lie under the United States Code.  This is the same code that is used to prosecute perjury in a court room; falsifying documents and lying to the FBI or US Congress.  These are proeceduted.

 

The US Embassy could eas0ily provide an income affadavit by asking people to show the 'proof'. Since they are all native speakers of English reading a pension letter backed by secondary and tertiary evidence would be easy .  Then with the Oath- it established a penalty for lying and forgery.  There is an FBI office in the US Embassy that could easily verify, if needed, and investigate any issues.

 

IMO- if the Us Embassy would follow the above procedure and explain it to Thai Immigration- these letters would be accepted.  The Us Embassy simply refuses to do it and there is no excuse for not wanting to assist US citrizens.  In fact,  by discontinuing the letter - the US Embassy has lost income and many Amerians in Thailand have been terribly inconvienced and  harmed financially. In addition- insteady helping the US Banking industry retain  deposits- they are assisting the Thai banking industry gain money.  IMO-  stopping the letters is and was a Lose-Lose scenario  for both the citizen and the US Government.

That sounds very, very complicated.  I think it's easier to just transfer 65,000B from my US bank (which still gets my pension deposits) every month to my Thai bank.  I do it over the phone and all taken care of every month.  I still need to verify that the deposit is properly coded (pom mak keegiat) by my thai bank.  If not, I will just deposit the 800,000B.  But rather do that than go to Bangkok and deal with the embassy and give them $50 for nothing or try to provide 1,2,and 3 lines of evidence.  Just because the embassy staff may speak English does not mean they understand anything.

 

I just don't view the loss of income "verification" letters from the US Embassy was a disaster since Thai Immigration did not really change the rules.  I don't agree with you that Americans in Thailand have been inconvenienced or suffered financial harm.  Nor do I believe that the US Embassy is a serious money-making enterprise for the US Government.  Enough with the hyperbole.  

[mikebell]

On 7/24/2019 at 11:34 AM, ubonjoe said:

It is the embassies not doing them not immigration not accepting them.

This is the last paragraph of the police order allowing proof of income by transferring funds into bank.

 

Someone contributed to this or a similar thread, that they had written to the British Embassy saying some UK citizens could easily produce an Income Tax end of year Certificate showing the required annual amount.  He wrote to BKK Embassy but did not receive a reply.  If lots of Brits wrote in would that persuade those at the Embassy to do their job and assist us?

'P60

Your P60 shows the tax you’ve paid on your salary in the tax year (6 April to 5 April).'

 

[ubonjoe]

7 minutes ago, mikebell said:

If lots of Brits wrote in would that persuade those at the Embassy to do their job and assist us?

But would the embassy be able to certify it. That appears to be the problem that the embassy cannot contact anybody to confirm it is true and correct.

During all the discussions late last year about income proof from embassies that was discussed many times for all 3 embassies in various topics about the income letters, affidavits and stat declarations.

[mikebell]

4 minutes ago, ubonjoe said:

But would the embassy be able to certify it. That appears to be the problem that the embassy cannot contact anybody to confirm it is true and correct.

During all the discussions late last year about income proof from embassies that was discussed many times for all 3 embassies in various topics about the income letters, affidavits and stat declarations.

Thanks for your speedy response, Joe.

Just sent the following email:

Thai Immigration will accept an Embassy letter for a long term visa. Why will the Embassy not issue such a letter on production of our P60 end of year certificate? Surely you would want to assist British Nationals living here, particularly elderly ones; if they were forced to return they would plunder the Social Services?

[Captain 776]

Nope.

Not from U S Consulate anymore.

[marcusarelus]

4 minutes ago, Captain 776 said:

Nope.

Not from U S Consulate anymore.

Or the Brits or the Aussies.  I guess we know who don't care about their citizens anymore.  

[DJ54]

On 7/24/2019 at 11:09 AM, SailingHome said:

I am USA citizen

Income document from US would’ve all expired by now. They were

only valid 6 months from end of December 2018. 

[UKresonant]

If you legalised your pension details in the UK and stamped by the Thai Embassy, would they still reject it? Bank statement are on the official list, and an agent (in London) suggested a pension letter should be do-able.

But then the gold fish syndrome would not make it viable, if they wanted it restated every year. 

Oh to have a 10 year, 180day per entry, multi Visa available, with an income requirement of 710kbaht ☺ 

[Thaidream]

4 hours ago, DoktorC said:

just don't view the loss of income "verification" letters from the US Embassy was a disaster since Thai Immigration did not really change the rules.  I don't agree with you that Americans in Thailand have been inconvenienced or suffered financial harm.  Nor do I believe that the US Embassy is a serious money-making enterprise for the US Government.  Enough with the hyperbole.

I never said they were a disaster- I indicated the Embassy could easily do it.  Instead,

an applicant has to either place 800K in a Thai Bank for 5 months and leave 400K in the bank for the whole year.

 

This requirement causes issues  involving foreign reporting for the  IRS plus the fact that instead of having the money in a US Bank it is now in a Thai Bank.

 

As far as the 65K per month- one has to transfer the funds each month when I can easily prove my income each month by Primary, Secondary or Tertiary evidence- I don't expect the Thai Immigration to view this evidence- but I would expect the US Embassy staff to understand what a Social Secuiryt Letter says; a military pension letter says and a Veterans Disability to say.  In addition- all 3 are certifiable/verified if need be by secure Computer link direct to  each agencies website.

 

Instead- I now have to pay each month a fee to transfer the funds to a Thai bank; then make sure they are listed as an international transfer on the bank book and present all this evidence at the end of the extension to Immigration.  

 

This is the 21st Century - I get all my funds via ATM- why would I need to do a bank transfer each time I need money or keep  800K locked up for 5 months when the whole purpose of the financial requirement is to be used each month for living expenses.

 

What adds more security to the situation is that the Embassy Letter is  signed under penalty of perjury.

 This means that the citizen who lies has committed  a felony.

 

It is not an exagerration that the change that came about as a result of the US Embassy stopping the income letters has created  a larger burden on the applicant.

 

The US Embassy  has a responsbility to assist it's citizens .  In fact, the Us Embassy in Columbia does exactly what the US Embassy in Thailand refuses to do.  It is also interesting that the Embassy in Columbia uses the term 'certify' in its announcement and the evidence that they need to provide  an income letter is  a letter from Social Security; Other Government entitities and even private  pension funds.  Neiter they or their counterpart in the  Columbian Immigration Office seem to have any issues with  working together.

 

The  USA; UK and Austrlian governments  are the largest English speaking communities in Thailand and I would imagine represent  the majority of retirees in Thailand. Every other Embassy in Thailand still issues the Embassy Letter .