Question for those who use an agent for 12 month extension.

[giddyup]

1 minute ago, watcharacters said:

 

I've asked on this forum in the past if anyone knows what becomes of the tens of millions of copies immigration and banks have of our personal information.    Nobody knows it seems.

 

I've also asked through the Mrs of banks and the IOs if they  know and it's the same blank look.

 

Where is that warehouse?   555

Area 51.

[tgeezer]

2 minutes ago, giddyup said:

Unless a new broom decided to clean up the whole rotten mess and included the clients as being complicit in the fraud. Highly unlikely I know.

Was that not the avowed intention of the most recent Immigration Chief? Was he not removed, even temporarily thrown out of the police? 

 

 

[simon43]

5 minutes ago, wreckingcountry said:

And when has that happened ? I know who’s deluded


Sent from my iPhone using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

You must be new here ????

 

Many examples!

 

Here's just one link (if mods allow this):

 

https://www.thethailandlife.com/illegal-thai-visa

[giddyup]

1 minute ago, tgeezer said:

Was that not the avowed intention of the most recent Immigration Chief? Was he not removed, even temporarily thrown out of the police? 

 

 

Not to say it can't happen again, but it makes little difference either way to me. My beef is with immigration turning the screws on those that are actually doing the right thing.

[Tanoshi]

29 minutes ago, cheshiremusicman said:

Let's get this straight once and for all. Does the 800k have to be in the bank 2 or 3 months 'PRIOR' to your application for an extension on the ground of retirement, I understood it was 2 months before and three months after correct or not?

 

19 minutes ago, giddyup said:

2 months for your first application, 3 months subsequently.  Also 3 months after.

Police order 35/2561 issued Jan 2019, taking effect from March 1st 2019, states;

 

"At least 2 months prior to filing date and at least 3 months after being granted permission, the alien must have fund deposit in a Thai bank in Thailand of no less than THB 800,000. The alien can then withdraw the fund 3 month after being granted permission and the remaining balance must be no less than THB 400,000"

 

There is now no first and subsequent differing application periods as with the old original order.

[giddyup]

2 minutes ago, Tanoshi said:

 

Police order 35/2561 issued Jan 2019, taking effect from March 1st 2019, states;

 

"At least 2 months prior to filing date and at least 3 months after being granted permission, the alien must have fund deposit in a Thai bank in Thailand of no less than THB 800,000. The alien can then withdraw the fund 3 month after being granted permission and the remaining balance must be no less than THB 400,000"

 

There is now no first and subsequent differing application periods as with the old original order.

I stand corrected.

[Tanoshi]

22 hours ago, giddyup said:

Not sure there is any online facility for showing the 800K in the bank after 90 days. I have to physically show the updated bank book.

Or a bank statement if your registered for online banking.

 

How an agent can prove 800K in the bank for any number of clients over a 12 month period is very easy, but to describe how on the forum would probably breach rules, suggesting forgery of documents.

[giddyup]

3 minutes ago, Tanoshi said:

Or a bank statement if your registered for online banking.

 

How an agent can prove 800K in the bank for any number of clients over a 12 month period is very easy, but to describe how on the forum would probably breach rules, suggesting forgery of documents.

That bank statement still has to be physically presented, along with passport copies, to Immigration 90 days after the extension has been granted AFAIK. Your use of the word forgery suggests something illegal, which many on here choose to deny.

Edited July 25, 2019 by giddyup

[tgeezer]

4 minutes ago, giddyup said:

Not to say it can't happen again, but it makes little difference either way to me. My beef is with immigration turning the screws on those that are actually doing the right thing.

I agree absolutely, we comply with all the rules yet we have to do  more and more to prove our integrity while those who simply pay up live a care free retirement.  Theoretically the agents workload has increased, what used to be a simple requirement of showing the means to support yourself as a retiree, we now need to do 90 day reports, TM30, and potentially, show medical insurance and even since there is a form for it, report visits to other provinces. 

Everyone of these conditions can be seen to have practical value by some in Immigration but only some to all in immigration.  

If the Immigration Act is to be the excuse for much of what goes on then those in charge of implementing it should learn about the IT equipment Immigration possesses and have their officers use it. 

[Caldera]

25 minutes ago, giddyup said:

Not to say it can't happen again, but it makes little difference either way to me. My beef is with immigration turning the screws on those that are actually doing the right thing.

The problem is that they don't personally benefit from you "doing the right thing". Their interests simply aren't aligned with yours. In numbers, you're worth 0 baht to them, while an agent's customer is worth whatever the agreed kickback is (10,000+ baht, year after year).

 

You'd think that they should care about what's best for their country, being public servants after all, but they've proven time and again that they just don't care.

[Tanoshi]

2 minutes ago, giddyup said:

That bank statement still has to be physically presented, along with passport copies, to Immigration 90 days after the extension has been granted AFAIK. Your use of the word forgery suggests something illegal, which many on here choose to deny.

On the older order where the 800K merely had to be presented on the day of application, the agents deposited 800K in the clients bank account for one day in order to get a statement, then withdrawn.

(That was one method and reported on TVF as the method used)

The IO overlooked any pre seasoning period, using his discretionary powers and a contribution to the annual Police Gala.

 

Now with the new rules dictating varying periods of varying amounts being in an account for a full 12 months it presents a new challenge to the agents.

With this new challenge came an increase in the agents fee. The IO could still use his discretionary powers to overlook any seasoning periods, but this could prove difficult to explain to a senior IO if audited and questioned.

 

The method to which I mentioned, which I discovered purely accidently, and an alternative for an agent to use exactly the same method, would be to provide bank statements for the complete 12 month period with a maintained balance of 400K or 800K as required.

 

Of course it's illegal, but agents services would be rarely required if the process could be completed legally.

[giddyup]

6 minutes ago, Caldera said:

The problem is that they don't personally benefit from you "doing the right thing". Their interests simply aren't aligned with yours. In numbers, you're worth 0 baht to them, while an agent's customer is worth whatever the agreed kickback is (10,000+ baht, year after year).

 

You'd think that they should care about what's best for their country, being public servants after all, but they've proven time and again that they just don't care.

Let them get their kickbacks, after all, it's supply and demand, but why make life even more difficult for those that comply? I just can't see the reasoning behind it. If I was a conspiracy theorist I could imagine there is some bitterness/resentment by immigration officials that 1900 baht is the most that they can extract from those that comply, and that's government revenue, not tea money.

[Caldera]

1 minute ago, giddyup said:

Let them get their kickbacks, after all, it's supply and demand, but why make life even more difficult for those that comply?

Because the result will be that more people will want or have to use the agents. More kickbacks.

[The Theory]

Update your bank book biweekly for 3 months. Then monthly update.

Edited July 25, 2019 by The Theory

[tgeezer]

29 minutes ago, Caldera said:

The problem is that they don't personally benefit from you "doing the right thing". Their interests simply aren't aligned with yours. In numbers, you're worth 0 baht to them, while an agent's customer is worth whatever the agreed kickback is (10,000+ baht, year after year).

 

You'd think that they should care about what's best for their country, being public servants after all, but they've proven time and again that they just don't care.

The need incentivising if they are going to provide a pleasant experience, if we were permitted to be ‘nice’ to them things would improve or better still if they were given an incentive, this probably was originally the case and may be still but not enough. 

When the 90 day reports were introduced CW opened a section dedicated to that and divorced from reality.    The service if that is what it is to be called, was free but it must have needed a budget, fines were the answer and probably the reason that a report to Immigration was not a 90 day report. TM 30 seems to have been introduced in the same way. 

 

As I understood it at the time the three months seasoning was introduced in order to make borrowing the money more costly. For ‘legal’ applicants who had the money and budgeted for it it meant an increase in the amount by three months! 

The latest manifestation seems to include a provision for self insurance to cover medical costs of Bt 400000.  Two and three months seasoning and twelve months self insurance. Anyone whose budget was about Bt 1000,000 now needs to have about Bt1,500,000. The medical insurance element can not be defaulted on so agents costs will increase meaning for those using agents fees could rise, for the rest a pain in the ass. 

Edited July 25, 2019 by tgeezer

[Tanoshi]

4 minutes ago, tgeezer said:

The latest manifestation seems to include a provision for self insurance to cover medical costs of Bt 400000.  Two and three months seasoning and twelve months self insurance. Anyone whose budget was about Bt 1000,000 now needs to have about Bt1,500,000. The medical insurance element can not be defaulted on so agents costs will increase meaning or those using agents fees could rise. 

The medical Insurance requirement to which you refer, was a proposal to attach is a condition to obtaining the Non Imm O-A long stay Visa, which can only be obtained from a Thai Embassy/Consulate in a Country where you have citizenship or residential status.

As yet it hasn't been applied and has no bearing or relationship to obtaining extensions from local Immigration offices from within Thailand.

[simon43]

Using an agent because you don't have the 800 or 400 k money?

 

Sooner or later the poopoo will surely hit the fan...

 

 

(.. and I'm not gloating - I too don't have the funds, but I'm being realistic about things and making a dignified exit from Thailand)

[giddyup]

19 minutes ago, The Theory said:

Update your bank book biweekly for 3 months. Then monthly update.

What does that mean?

[murraynz]

6 hours ago, simon43 said:

It's beyond me why this forum allows discussion of the use of agents to circumvent the 800/400k requirements.  It's plain illegal, no ifs or buts.  These discussions should be closed, just as prostitution discussions are closed...

take note---many of us that use agents , are doing nothing illegal...we have 800,000thb in bank , which remains there-untouched... we use an agent to eliminate the ever changing opinions of immigration people.who make you rules, to suit themselves...

[gunderhill]

23 hours ago, poohy said:

Her answer the money in bank is not applicable to agents customers you will not be asked however if you are ring her she will clear

how "convenient" so  its  all  just  about  corruption  then!

[from the home of CC]

2 hours ago, tropo said:

It's not a "line of thinking" at all. It's a fact that disturbs the I-do-everything-legally crowd. They have been eagerly waiting to see the people who use agents deported, so they can say "I told you so", for a very long time now.

 So you're not part of the I do everything legal crowd? You believe that because corruption is in Thailand that gives people the 'right' to break the laws they see fit? And who decides which laws are morally okay to break because this legal system of immigration is corrupted. Personally, I don't believe all officials in Thailand are corrupt. But what I do believe is eventually all that scammed the system will be caught out,  and people better hope it's when they're doing the go fund me dance in their death bed so it won't matter.

[ICELANDMAN]

You have right all the point.

We all understand that this situation that becomes ever more frustrating to use an agent or not is a secondary issue. But what is the reason? What I observe is that not only do we expatriates ask us for more and more documents and new rules that change on time but also for tourists new regulations are imposed, what is the government ultimately trying to do? Why all these changes in the last year? Is it just an international political issue? The result is to reduce expatriates as well as tourists and everything is worse for the host country. Does the fact of ever closer union with China lead us to this situation? Voluntarily damaging Thailand economically at first sight seems absurd but for what reason?
And we have to observe this report very carefully next time before decide if stay or go way this madness country.

 

[jacko45k]

On 7/24/2019 at 1:12 PM, giddyup said:

All he had to do was look at my bankbook and see 800K hasn't moved in 9 years, but apparently that's not good enough. I guess you are saying if you use an agent the 90 day report showing funds is waived.

The requirement is not having 800k in the bank for the last 9 years, but 2 months prior and 3 months after the extension.

Depends what you require of the agent....immigration may not ask to see the money post application when obtained using an agent. You appear not to have used an agent so why do you care?

[simon43]

51 minutes ago, murraynz said:

take note---many of us that use agents , are doing nothing illegal...we have 800,000thb in bank , which remains there-untouched... we use an agent to eliminate the ever changing opinions of immigration people.who make you rules, to suit themselves...

Huh?  Note my post "...use of agents to circumvent the 800/400k requirements."  I said nothing about using agents for those who have the funds and are perhaps to busy to do the extension process themselves. 

 

My post was in simple English and clearly directed at those who don't have sufficient funds (or are unable to prove such funds).

[KiChakayan]

On 7/24/2019 at 1:50 PM, giddyup said:

There is no doubt the whole system is corrupt. The people who are honest and play by the rules are penalised.

Not the whole system, geographically speaking in some places, namely Buriram, there are no agents. As a consequence for legit people such as myself, the level of pain remains acceptable. But in the current context this could well change.

[Old Croc]

My take.

Like the OP I have kept the 800k in the bank untouched for about 9 years.

(I regarded it as the price of admission to live in this country, with the bonus that I get my money back when I walk out the gate!)

If I was asked to front up again in 3 months to prove it's still there, I would also be pissed. It's a form of harassment and unnecessary. Fortunately, Phuket Office checks this requirement at the next extension.

 

There are strict Police Rules (conditions) for the grant of extensions that the applicant generally must meet. However, the IO has a discretionary power to grant an application even if the conditions have not been met. (I know of someone who stuffed up the 3 month in the bank before application, but was given leniency). It is not illegal for the Officer to use this discretionary power. (It cannot be compared to the illegal practice, which was once commonplace, of sending a passport over the border to renew someone's stay) 

In using this discretion to grant applications which patently don't meet the criteria, and to take large fees for it, is corrupt and probably against internal rules of professional behavior, but technically is not illegal because of this discretionary power.

It's fairly common knowledge that corruption is a large part of the economic cycle in this country. In government agencies it is well organized, proceeds are shared among the players, and the money flows upwards all the way to the top. 

Immigration is part of that system, despite most of their cliental being foreigners, many of whom naively expect the same standards of behavior as their home country to apply here. 

(News flash - your country is also corrupt, just in a less transparent way!)  

 

[jacko45k]

5 minutes ago, Old Croc said:

but technically is not illegal because of this discretionary power.

I suspect taking monetary payment above the 1900 baht to do so, and not declaring it for tax purposes is illegal.

Edited July 25, 2019 by jacko45k

[ThaiBunny]

Just now, jacko45k said:

I suspect taking monetary payment above the 1900 bhat and not declaring it for tax purposes is illegal.

Pass the smelling salts

[moonseeker]

Done my 3 months money in account this morning. Incl. 90 day reporting total 5 min. 

No number needed this morning for showing bankbook at 1 yr ext. counter. Fixed deposit, updated this morning. Needed... The reminder they give you at extension day, signed once more. Main page bankbook, updated page amount, main page passport, ext. page. The friendly lady took all, handed back the bankbook and told me. All finished. Thank you. 

Easy, fast, efficient. Jomtien must be one of the best offices. MS>

 

[Old Croc]

1 minute ago, jacko45k said:

I suspect taking monetary payment above the 1900 bhat and not declaring it for tax purposes is illegal.

An internal matter, not related to the grant of the extension.

 

 

The tax department in your country or Thailand's version?

What do you know about what a tax payer declares or not?