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4 minutes ago, robblok said:

I was talking about the scales of 100 to 200$  they are completely useless. I have done extensive research and obviously you did not. You have no idea how these things are made.

 

You should read more about the topic before you attack me. I might have a certain posting style but I do know what I am talking about.

 

A Dexa scan is a real scan that really works. These other machines are different all they do is send an electric current through the body (nothing more then that). Then depending on what the reading is look that reading up in a tabel based on your age and height (otherwise you would never have to imput that). These tables are filled with date that was gotten from doing Dexa scans on average people (not athletes). So what these machines do is not really checking what YOUR body fat is but what it it is on for other people who had a Dexa scan and make a reading from it. 

 

Look at it like this they do a dexa scan of 10 people who weigh 92 kg and are 180 cm and have a certain body fat. They then look what the scales with the current would give and then assume your the same as those people. That is all ok if your Joe average but not if your an athlete or just different from the norm. 

 

The only thing that is different for the real expensive ones is that they have a better table as its based on more currents through different parts of the body. 

 

I am just frustrated with those scales as they are a scam for athletes and people who are not average. 

 

Dexa scan that is gold standard.. so is the bod pod or hydrostatic measuring. The rest is just guessing. Sorry to burst the bubble of people.

 

Just look at my readings for instance how at the same body weight during a week it gives different bodyfat percentages. This was a 200$ scales. My bodyfat is a lot lower given that i got visible abs. 

 

Its sometimes a bit frustrating to explain things to people who have less experience.

 

https://muscleevo.net/body-fat-scales/

 

just ask @WaveHunter

weights.JPG

I responded on purpose, because I anticipated you'd react exactly as I forecast. Sorry about that. 

 

Start at your third paragraph - it's a far better response approach. And thank you for your really informative explanation - I shall of course absorb the detail, and perhaps test it out.

 

BTW - as an observation, your test results -even if incorrect - are in a similar ball-court, so for a person like me who is an average person, the results could be meaningful, measured on a month by month basis.

 

Something I could work on by following your weight-training advice.  

 

take it easy,

steve.

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12 hours ago, dontoearth said:

    The better scales do not use look up tables anymore.  Here is how they work:

     "such scales work with the help of sensors underneath your feet that use bioelectrical impedance. When you step on the scale, a small electrical current runs up through your leg and across your pelvis, measuring the amount of resistance from body fat."

      The big ones in some health clubs have additional hand sensors measuring the upper body.  AGAIN, no tables.  They are tested against DEXA scans and produce the same results 99.9% of the time now.  The DEXA is considered the medical gold standard for body fat measurement at this time.  

       The truly bad news is that many of us myself included have internal fat wrapped around heart and lungs.  Taking off weight is possible but it is a slow steady process to get this internal weight  which is a harder more dangerous fat to dissolve.  Doctors now refer to this problem as people being TOFI (thin on the outside, fat on the inside).   Since most doctors won't invest in a good 2 or 3 thousand US dollar scale for the office to measure and map body fat like the Tanita Body Composition Scale they just measure you like a sack of potatoes.  And they find out about the internal fat from the autopsy after your stroke or heart attack kills you.  This seems to account for people that die from these two killers that are in the normal weight and BMI category from medical measurements.  Before discovering this doctors just did the shoulder shrug and no one knows why speech.  

        I showed my doctor a print out from a Tanita Body Composition scale and he was amazed.  Said it would be helpful for the clinic and he thought they should order one.  A year later he is still doing the sack of potatoes scale.  They got new digital sack of potato scales that use wifi to fill in his medical charts on his ipad instantly.  Faster results that are not any better at all!  I haven't heard of any more talk of getting decent scales for the clinic.   

        Lastly, I have seen a few body builders get very vexed by the new more accurate body fat scales because the gain/loose cycles they used for muscle gain have packed fat around the body organs and their caliper measurements can't account for that.  The digital body map will show it to them.  Other than being angry and in denial I haven't heard any of them talk about a different strategy for their exercise and diet programs. 

        For me to get a decent body fat rating from this scale, I had to return to my weight from my early 30's along with doing the most rigorous workout program I could sustain with the help of a daily trainer, I  am now 62.  It was difficult but rewarding to have this extra measurement to help me.  I don't have any access to such a tool now.  I miss it.  It took several years for me to get a 19% body fat rating.  My body was slowly changing internally even tho.' all normal measurements were giving no new news!  The early body fat ratings were in the 30's even tho.' I looked and felt great and other measurements showed tremendous progress. 

        I have not read the product manuals for the smaller body fat scales available at amazon but don't think any of them use 'look-up tables' anymore.

 

I think you are mistaken.  Most if not all modern consumer body fat scales are essentially just measuring hydration level and use lookup tables to interpolate that level to a statistical database for the population according to age for indices like body fat %, lean mass, skeletal muscle, visceral muscle, BMI, etc.  That's why there is so much variation from one day to the next.

 

Your own experience (I had to return to my weight from my early 30's) kind of confirms the use of lookup tables, don't you think?

 

I guess scales are a good for confirming a trend of weight loss/gain and fat loss/gain over time, but I personally would not rely on them for an actual and precise body fat percentage, nor is there really any feed to.  A look at your naked body in a full-length mirror will really tell you everything you need to know in the most brutal and honest way IMO.

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2 minutes ago, stephenterry said:

I responded on purpose, because I anticipated you'd react exactly as I forecast. Sorry about that. 

 

Start at your third paragraph - it's a far better response approach. And thank you for your really informative explanation - I shall of course absorb the detail, and perhaps test it out.

 

BTW - as an observation, your test results -even if incorrect - are in a similar ball-court, so for a person like me who is an average person, the results could be meaningful, measured on a month by month basis.

 

Something I could work on by following your weight-training advice.  

 

take it easy,

steve.

Steve,

 

If it worked like that that the incorrect date kept being incorrect by a certain amount it would not be a problem. But that is not the case. Do you see how I have 2 different body fats in a week at the same weight ? or how I have a lower bodyfat at a higher weight. I could live with the same inconsistency. 

 

I lost 7 kg but the scales only show a 2% drop in fat percentage... it just does not work. I know my body quite well and a 7kg loss should be 7% down.. if I lost muscle I would know from not being able to lift what i lifted before. 

 

I am not even sure they are good for an average person, did you even read the link i provided. I just get frustrated when people think they know something and portrait it as the truth while its been proven to be totally wrong. 

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Posted (edited)
5 minutes ago, robblok said:

Steve,

 

If it worked like that that the incorrect date kept being incorrect by a certain amount it would not be a problem. But that is not the case. Do you see how I have 2 different body fats in a week at the same weight ? or how I have a lower bodyfat at a higher weight. I could live with the same inconsistency. 

 

I lost 7 kg but the scales only show a 2% drop in fat percentage... it just does not work. I know my body quite well and a 7kg loss should be 7% down.. if I lost muscle I would know from not being able to lift what i lifted before. 

 

I am not even sure they are good for an average person, did you even read the link i provided. I just get frustrated when people think they know something and portrait it as the truth while its been proven to be totally wrong. 

I agree, when a scale reports your BF% as 10% on one day, and then 14% the next day (or vice-versa), isn't that enough to tell you that they don't work?  I wish they were telling the truth though.  If so, all I need to do to lose 4% of my body fat is go on a long, sweaty run or bike ride.  It sure is a quick way to lose 4% body fat, and I don't even have to go on a diet to do it LOL!

Edited by WaveHunter

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3 minutes ago, robblok said:

Steve,

 

If it worked like that that the incorrect date kept being incorrect by a certain amount it would not be a problem. But that is not the case. Do you see how I have 2 different body fats in a week at the same weight ? or how I have a lower bodyfat at a higher weight. I could live with the same inconsistency. 

 

I lost 7 kg but the scales only show a 2% drop in fat percentage... it just does not work. I know my body quite well and a 7kg loss should be 7% down.. if I lost muscle I would know from not being able to lift what i lifted before. 

 

I am not even sure they are good for an average person, did you even read the link i provided. I just get frustrated when people think they know something and portrait it as the truth while its been proven to be totally wrong. 

Oh well. I have downloaded the Flat Belly cheat sheet from your link. Is that worthwhile following?

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2 minutes ago, stephenterry said:

Oh well. I have downloaded the Flat Belly cheat sheet from your link. Is that worthwhile following?

Steve,

 

I havent downloaded it, what works best IMHO is the mirror and a tape measure and scales. If the tape measure shows your belly gets smaller you know your losing fat. 

 

I am sorry for my sometimes aggressive style of posting. But this is one of the things that really gets to me. I am now busy trying to get rid of the last little bit of fat and then we are talking about small differences. 

 

So I have looked everywhere spend money for nothing just so I could track progress. Once you get at a certain level its important to know where your going but its so hard to know that your often guessing. That is just frustrating. I thought at some point I had it solved with a scale like that only finding out that it does not work.

 

If I had found out about the availability of the Dexa scan before (just found out a week ago you can do it in BKK) I would have done it to have a good measuring point. I still might do it just so I have it on record for the future. 

 

I know I am not Joe average and have different goals (just to keep me busy its a hobby). But even for normal people the scales don't really work good. The best things is a combination of your weight.. and just taking measurements with a tape measure. 

 

For me its not even about the number being correct but knowing if things change or not and in what direction. I could care less if I am 10% or 20%, but I want to know if what I am losing is fat or muscle or just water. 

 

Just trying to prevent people to spend money on something that does deliver as promised. 

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1 minute ago, WaveHunter said:

I agree, when a scale reports your BF% as 10% on one day, and then 14% the next day, isn't that enough to know they don't work?  I wish they were telling the truth though.  If so, all I need to do to be at 10% is go on a long, sweaty run or bike ride.  It sure is a quick way to lose 4% body fat, and I don't even have to go on a diet to do it LOL!

Yeah, seems like Nutrition advice from book-writing gurus - a complete minefield of conflicting -and often inaccurate/incomplete - information. 

 

I won't delve into detail here, but eating peanuts  - or not - is blessed with advisors jumping on one bandwagon instead of unravelling the complex rationale of 'the pros and cons'.

 

One clue - don't eat any peanut product if you have an allergic reaction to them, even just by being in the same vicinity - for the very sound reason that they could kill you... 

 

But there's a hell lot more to consider, and not all is bad. 

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Posted (edited)
5 minutes ago, stephenterry said:

Yeah, seems like Nutrition advice from book-writing gurus - a complete minefield of conflicting -and often inaccurate/incomplete - information. 

 

I won't delve into detail here, but eating peanuts  - or not - is blessed with advisors jumping on one bandwagon instead of unravelling the complex rationale of 'the pros and cons'.

 

One clue - don't eat any peanut product if you have an allergic reaction to them, even just by being in the same vicinity - for the very sound reason that they could kill you... 

 

But there's a hell lot more to consider, and not all is bad. 

I love peanuts! 🙂 However, I've been on commercial flights where they are banned just because one single passenger has an allergy to them.  They even made an announcement that not only would none be served on that flight, but that if anyone had any onboard, they should not open the packaging, so what you say must be true.

 

Edited by WaveHunter

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Posted (edited)

With regard to the BMI being obsolete. Have read that as long as two times your waist measurement is less than your height, you are not considered over-weight.

Edited by Joe Mcseismic

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7 minutes ago, stephenterry said:

Yeah, seems like Nutrition advice from book-writing gurus - a complete minefield of conflicting -and often inaccurate/incomplete - information. 

 

I won't delve into detail here, but eating peanuts  - or not - is blessed with advisors jumping on one bandwagon instead of unravelling the complex rationale of 'the pros and cons'.

 

One clue - don't eat any peanut product if you have an allergic reaction to them, even just by being in the same vicinity - for the very sound reason that they could kill you... 

 

But there's a hell lot more to consider, and not all is bad. 

Yes its a big minefield and what works for one might not work for an other. I have found what works for me. But I actually learn new things all the time. I am not worried about revising my opinions about things.

 

For a long time I thought that I would not need cardio because I was huffing and puffing enough with my lifting raising my heart rate quite well. But recently I have read more and it was said that steady state cardio has a far better effect on the heart and arteries so I started doing cardio in the morning. I now don't hate it anymore and just do it and as an added benefit it seems to help me burn extra fat. (i still lift weights of course)

 

There is so much conflicting advice about so many things out there that it is just scary. Even among the people i respect and listen too (read or watch) they differ on things. So its hard to know what is truly the truth. I think a lot has to do with who you are and at what levels you are too. 

 

Anyway sometimes I get carried away a bit

 

My appologies at @dontoearth   

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Posted (edited)
8 minutes ago, Joe Mcseismic said:

With regard to the BMI being obsolete. Have read that as long as two times your waist measurement is less than your height, you are not considered over-weight.

80 cm on the belly button .. im 180 cm tall.. so im saved. Unless some parts of my legs get cut off.

Edited by robblok

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Posted (edited)
30 minutes ago, Joe Mcseismic said:

With regard to the BMI being obsolete. Have read that as long as two times your waist measurement is less than your height, you are not considered over-weight.

As a rough guideline it's probably appropriate to tell you if you need to lose body fat or not...but an honest look in the mirror should tell you that in no uncertain terms.

Edited by WaveHunter

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9 hours ago, robblok said:

Yes its a big minefield and what works for one might not work for an other. I have found what works for me. But I actually learn new things all the time. I am not worried about revising my opinions about things.

 

For a long time I thought that I would not need cardio because I was huffing and puffing enough with my lifting raising my heart rate quite well. But recently I have read more and it was said that steady state cardio has a far better effect on the heart and arteries so I started doing cardio in the morning. I now don't hate it anymore and just do it and as an added benefit it seems to help me burn extra fat. (i still lift weights of course)

 

There is so much conflicting advice about so many things out there that it is just scary. Even among the people i respect and listen too (read or watch) they differ on things. So its hard to know what is truly the truth. I think a lot has to do with who you are and at what levels you are too. 

 

Anyway sometimes I get carried away a bit

 

My appologies at @dontoearth   

    No problem!  I specifically discussed the body problem of high internal fat called visceral fat.  It is a real hidden medical problem for those that use the look in the mirror approach or calipers to judge body fat. Rippling abs in the mirror would tell you nothing about your visceral fat measurements.  I also discussed a very expensive scale available for use at Olympic Health Club in Bangkok.  The Tanita Body Composition Analyzer from which I took measurements monthly (and no more) to get an accurate picture of my program to knock down visceral fat.  My family has been prone to heart disease among normal weight relatives.  

    I downloaded and read the entire product manual to find out about their testing comparison to DEXA.  I am like that intense and like to read original documentation not ask someone that really has no idea.  And I said I had no idea about the smaller scales available on places like amazon.  I can only suspect that they will get better and better since technology improves and becomes cheaper at very rapid rates these days.  I have never downloaded or read one of their product manuals.  I just know that the expensive Tanita Body Composition Analyzer does not use tables.  

    I would recommend anyone with my background get on the Tanita Body Composition Analyzer scale and give it a whirl.  It might be to their liking or necessary for others.  I have no access now to this level of measurement and wish I did.

    I am not following or commenting on the forum like I did when I was in bangkok.  I have found a few gems as I return to it lately.  I don't miss the bickering.

 

    

    

 

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6 minutes ago, dontoearth said:

    No problem!  I specifically discussed the body problem of high internal fat called visceral fat.  It is a real hidden medical problem for those that use the look in the mirror approach or calipers to judge body fat. Rippling abs in the mirror would tell you nothing about your visceral fat measurements.  I also discussed a very expensive scale available for use at Olympic Health Club in Bangkok.  The Tanita Body Composition Analyzer from which I took measurements monthly (and no more) to get an accurate picture of my program to knock down visceral fat.  My family has been prone to heart disease among normal weight relatives.  

    I downloaded and read the entire product manual to find out about their testing comparison to DEXA.  I am like that intense and like to read original documentation not ask someone that really has no idea.  And I said I had no idea about the smaller scales available on places like amazon.  I can only suspect that they will get better and better since technology improves and becomes cheaper at very rapid rates these days.  I have never downloaded or read one of their product manuals.  I just know that the expensive Tanita Body Composition Analyzer does not use tables.  

    I would recommend anyone with my background get on the Tanita Body Composition Analyzer scale and give it a whirl.  It might be to their liking or necessary for others.  I have no access now to this level of measurement and wish I did.

    I am not following or commenting on the forum like I did when I was in bangkok.  I have found a few gems as I return to it lately.  I don't miss the bickering.

 

It makes no sense to have rippling abs and a lot of visceral fat fat gets burned equally around the body usually the last at the belly. So really if your lean you would not have a problem with visceral fat. 

 

If you input your age and weight then it does use tables, if you don't then it really does its job. Because why would you have to input that date if it was not to look the result of the electrical current up against a table that was filled with results from dexa scans. (I don't know if you have to fill in age and height on the expensive models).

 

The bickering is something you can learn from too without debate there never is any progress.

 

Anyway I hope you get access to it again so you can use it if it helps you that is great. I now might go to a dexa scan but the price is still a bit high plus i would have wanted to do it before i lost all the weight.. now there is only a few kg to go at most and I am not sure its worth it. 

 

But one thing is for sure its important to track progress otherwise you never know if what your doing is right or wrong. Like when your stalling.. are you stalling because your holding water.. or are you really not losing weight or are you getting more muscle.. real frustrating if you dont know. Because you cant implement changes without knowing. 

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Just stop eating for 16 hours a day and you can eat just about anything. I like meat so I eat it along with most other foods.

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