Establishing bank deposits from foreign sources

[rexall]

This concerns me personally. It has been discussed in related threads but it may be worth having its own topic so that we can track experiences from various Imm offices.

Today on another forum, someone said in part:

 ...a friend of mine just extended his retirement visa [Khon Kaen]. Not sure if there is more to the story but he told me that his 12 month bank statement showed one month to have two international deposits and the next month none. A timing issue based on one deposit arriving to fast, on the 30th of the month instead of the usual 2nd of the month. Immigration told him no extension, go to Lao and get a 90 day visa and come back and start over getting a new retirement visa.

I believe this contradicts a report  I have heard about a similar incident  in at least one other Imm office (Chiang Mai maybe?) where the I/O was only concerned that the monthly deposits totaled at least B800K, and not how many deposits that involved or how often they were made.  Have I got that right? Anyone else remember the post I am referring to?

It seems that some Imm offices or I/O's want to see a single monthly deposit of at least B65K arriving on the same date every month. Personally, that screws me up big time even though I can more than satisfy B800K in deposits over the course of a year.

--
 

Just as a point of logic (which obviously doesn't matter),  retirement age can be as young as 50, a decade or more before someone will receive government retirement benefits such as Social Security. Possible-but-unlikely that someone that age is receiving a regular pension check from having worked at a company. So, obviously, imported money is going to come from savings, investments, businesses or other offshore income.
 

The income affidavit we used to get from the U.S. Embassy says quote-unquote:
 

"I also affirm that I receive a monthly income of  $_____________ from sources in the United States . . ."

That wording was acceptable to Imm for decades with no mention of "pensions" or any specific sources. Note also the word sources, plural, suggesting that the money need not be from any one source, or any particular type of source, or at any particular time of the month.
 

But again, that is probably too logical.

The more important question being, how are the various Imm offices and I/O's interpreting the policy? 

Also, am I just being an "armchair lawyer"? Does or does not the actual policy specify that the deposits have to arrive monthly on an specific date and be from any particular source other than "offshore?

[BritManToo]

It's pointless, as it purely depends on how hungry the IO dealing with you (or his boss) is for a bribe (through an agent).

[DrJack54]

It has to be monthly. Report or 2 where io have been flexible when deposit arrive start or end of month missing by day or 2. 

What various offices do is up to them. Even various imm officers.

As for word pension that is just term used. You just need show monthly deposit and demonstrate it was transfer for o/s. Having said that there was report where io wanted to see "pension statement". Whatever that is. 

 

[ubonjoe]

As far as one transfer showing in the same month it may depend upon how many you have done.

I have my SSA payments direct deposited to my Bangkok Bank account via their New York branch. I had two transfers showing in August of last year with one coming in on the 31st due to the 3rd of September being labor day last year. Just had my extension application accepted yesterday with no questions asked about it. But I had 12 months of bank statements showing all the others coming from the 1st to the 3rd of the month. My bank book showed over 2 year of transfers going into my account as well.

I was asked to show the proof of the source of my income also. Showed them the SSA statement for 2018 and the letter informing me of my payments for this year I got in December.

[rexall]

I realize is pretty witless to "armchair lawyer," but for the sake of discussion, what if someone is age 50 and deposits B65K from his savings every month (because he would prefer not to make one big B800K deposit and doesn't what to maintina that much in Thailand at one time)?

[rexall]

I used an agent one time 20 years ago when I was a young sprout in between visas.  I wouldn't even know how to go about it now.  If anyone has time, I would be grateful if you could PM me any details and how to hook up with agents. I imagine the discussing it in too much detail publicly and exchanging info on the forum is against the rules.

[BritManToo]

2 minutes ago, rexall said:

I used an agent one time 20 years ago when I was a young sprout in between visas.  I wouldn't even know how to go about it now.  If anyone has time, I would be grateful if you could PM me any details and how to hook up with agents. I imagine the discussing it in too much detail publicly and exchanging info on the forum is against the rules.

Ask your local immigration officer for a recommendation.

[mtls2005]

From a translation of the Police Order...

 

"Evidence showing income, such as pension or interest received or dividend received"

 

 

 

the keyword is "income", the source of which could, but is not limited to the three examples given. It could be other sources (IRA/Roth, annuity, capital gains, rent received, subsidy, lottery/gambling winnings, inheritance, to name just a few), but perhaps not a result of illegal activities.

 

 

 

Can't address the "timing" issue. Seen some IO quotes about requiring "consistency", but who knows what that really means or how it could be interpreted.

 

A pattern of early in the month qualifying foreign transfers, with one last day of the month, seems reasonable, especially if it is due to some holiday/timing issue.

 

To be safe, maybe better to deposit it in the home country, then make a transfer?

 

 

[Bangkok Basha]

My experience at Chaeng Wattana last week is instructive for two reasons. They disallowed three transactions in July 2019 made using TransferWise, because they showed up on my statement as "SMT" (Interbank Transfer) because TransferWise started using Kasikorn Bank as their intermediary bank in Thailand. Even after I got a letter from Kasikorn Bank stating that the transfers they received in my name were indeed international ones, the agents at Immigration refused to accept them. I also had only one transaction in August, 2018 for THB 32,000, and they absolutely required 12 consecutive months. That in spite of the fact that I had transferred over 900,000 in the 12 months total- no averaging. I was denied an extension, and as my previous extension had expired over the weekend, I was told that I was now on overstay and should leave the country immediately and come back on a visa exempt entry, which I did. The only option for me was to transfer 800,000 and re-apply, but since that would require 2-3 months ''seasoning", I decided to say <deleted>> it and just return to the U.S. and apply for a new retirement visa there. It's actually much simpler in terms of paperwork. 

[Joe Mcseismic]

Why not do your transfers in the middle of each month? Far safer if early or, late.

[Henryford]

Your post just confirms my feeling that the 65k monthly method is just too unreliable for a visa. The IO could refuse for any of a number of reasons by which time it is too late to do anything else (except for an illegal agent). The whole issue around "proving" it comes from abroad is another massive minefield. I have concluded to ONLY rely on the 800k bank method.

[lagavulin1]

21 hours ago, mtls2005 said:

From a translation of the Police Order...

 

"Evidence showing income, such as pension or interest received or dividend received"

 

 

 

the keyword is "income", the source of which could, but is not limited to the three examples given. It could be other sources (IRA/Roth, annuity, capital gains, rent received, subsidy, lottery/gambling winnings, inheritance, to name just a few), but perhaps not a result of illegal activities.

 

 

 

Can't address the "timing" issue. Seen some IO quotes about requiring "consistency", but who knows what that really means or how it could be interpreted.

 

A pattern of early in the month qualifying foreign transfers, with one last day of the month, seems reasonable, especially if it is due to some holiday/timing issue.

 

To be safe, maybe better to deposit it in the home country, then make a transfer?

 

 

I'm screwed because DWP in UK pay Four weekly on different days. Previously it was just an extra but with Sterling collapsing inward I need it. 

[ubonjoe]

13 minutes ago, lagavulin1 said:

I'm screwed because DWP in UK pay Four weekly on different days. Previously it was just an extra but with Sterling collapsing inward I need it. 

The police order does not state anything about the transfers having to be done on the same day or near it every month. It just states it has to be 12 months of transfers.

Not sure where that misleading info came from. Perhaps one post of what an immigration officer told someone that has been repeated over and and over again.

[lagavulin1]

1 minute ago, ubonjoe said:

The police order does not state anything about the transfers having to be done on the same day or near it every month. It just states it has to be 12 months of transfers.

Not sure where that misleading info came from. Perhaps one post of what an immigration officer told someone that has been repeated over and and over again.

Thanks Joe. I have a spreadsheet (yes I'm that sort of Guy????) I intend to show it at my next 90 to get their opinion. 

Paul. 

[WeekendRaider]

always use SWIFT.  pay the bank fees for 65K monthly or do the 800K lump sum.  or wait for Soc Security which goes directly into a BBL account w/o an ATM.  

[Fairynuff]

As with everything else visa related the “rules” or whatever we call them mean nothing at all. Any IO can choose to interpret them as they see fit and therefore deny a totally legitimate application.

as long as each individual IO has discretion this will go on. Discretion should be removed and a single rule should be applied across the board. Of course this is just me living in fantasyland!

Edited August 9, 2019 by Fairynuff

[chilly07]

Just done mine at Jomtien. 6mths of TransferWise via BB accepted all over 40k. Irregular transfers due to UK state pension at 4 weeks plus pension statements from providers. V reputable agent told me if I failed I could transfer to retirement without any problems.

[mtls2005]

1 hour ago, lagavulin1 said:

I have a spreadsheet (yes I'm that sort of Guy????)

 

An overabundance of self-generated documentation, which is unsolicited, rarely works to one's advantage, if the dozen or so posts involving this practice are to be believed.

 

You're much better off sticking to simplicity and basics...certified bank letter detailing qualifying foreign transfers, maybe copies of the bank-book which lists all the qualifying foreign transfers, maybe a same-day certified bank letter attesting to your sole ownership of the account and the curent balance.

 

And as back-up, maybe have any documentation supporting the source of the "income".

 

 

 

 

[treetops]

5 hours ago, WeekendRaider said:

always use SWIFT.  pay the bank fees for 65K monthly <snip>

It's already been pointed out in other threads that your home bank may use a correspondent bank (either at home or in Thailand) with the end result your deposits are coded as domestic transfers and no good for the 65K monthly route.

[rickudon]

I decided back in January, having weighed up the issues of ensuring monthly transfers, and proving they come from abroad, along with the cost of SWIFT, that the income method was just too unreliable and not that cheap. My cheapest way has been the fee free ATM card for the last 10 years. Also i do not spend all 12 months a year in Thailand and having to send money when your not there is insane.

 

As a result, i am now opting for the 400,000/800,000 in the bank method, just is more clear cut and can no longer get decent interest rates on savings in the UK anyway. I still have a UK credit rating and was able to borrow the money very cheaply (i didn't want to tie up all my on demand cash). Also, with the crazy exchange rates and Brexit my income may be insufficient by the end of October for all i know.

 

So my advice would be to go this route if you can find a way to do so. Just need another 120,000 baht and i will be there (about another 3 big counter withdrawals for me).

[smedly]

15 hours ago, treetops said:

It's already been pointed out in other threads that your home bank may use a correspondent bank (either at home or in Thailand) with the end result your deposits are coded as domestic transfers and no good for the 65K monthly route.

correct

 

Nationwide in UK use HSBC in Thailand for swift transfers

 

 

[jacko45k]

15 hours ago, treetops said:

It's already been pointed out in other threads that your home bank may use a correspondent bank (either at home or in Thailand) with the end result your deposits are coded as domestic transfers and no good for the 65K monthly route.

A corresponding bank in Thailand might be one problem, but one in your home country should not be if you specify to transfer in your home currency. If your Thai bank converts it surely it gets the foreign transfer tag?

[adam1948]

 I'm probably one of a few hundred thousand Expats who have retired to Thailand, got married to a wonderful Thai Lady and have built a home for our family of four ... Since I(we) have invested at least 1,000,000 baht or more in our home and plan to live the rest of our lives here why not make it easy on us by allowing us to use our property value(1,000,000 Baht) to satisfy the monetary portion of "Marriage O" visa extension

many of us are property owners, why not use the property as the collateral and allow us to use the cash for daily living expenses,

[sumrit]

1 hour ago, adam1948 said:

 I'm probably one of a few hundred thousand Expats who have retired to Thailand, got married to a wonderful Thai Lady and have built a home for our family of four ... Since I(we) have invested at least 1,000,000 baht or more in our home and plan to live the rest of our lives here why not make it easy on us by allowing us to use our property value(1,000,000 Baht) to satisfy the monetary portion of "Marriage O" visa extension

many of us are property owners, why not use the property as the collateral and allow us to use the cash for daily living expenses,

Nice idea but WE are not property owners, our wives are. We may have supplied the finance originally but that was just a gift. There's nothing in our own names that says we own anything.

[Tanoshi]

On ‎8‎/‎9‎/‎2019 at 12:18 PM, mtls2005 said:

You're much better off sticking to simplicity and basics...certified bank letter detailing qualifying foreign transfers, maybe copies of the bank-book which lists all the qualifying foreign transfers, maybe a same-day certified bank letter attesting to your sole ownership of the account and the curent balance.

 

And as back-up, maybe have any documentation supporting the source of the "income".

One of the issues I've witnessed was monthly overseas transfers of between 67-69,000 baht verified by Thai bank statements and bank letter confirming the sole account holders details.

 

They requested supported documentation as the source of income, which was provided in the form of a Pension statement letter.

However when they calculated his monthly pension payments and converted to baht, his monthly pension fell short of the required 65,000 baht per month due to the current exchange rate.

He has sufficient funds in his home bank (an accumulation of pension payments over the years) to make up the current shortfall in the exchange rate in order to meet the 65K per month transfers.

 

The new requirement states proof of overseas transfers to a Thai bank of 65K per month, not a Pension letter (unless an Embassy Income letter). His extension was refused on the basis of his Pension letter.

[Tanoshi]

4 hours ago, jacko45k said:

A corresponding bank in Thailand might be one problem, but one in your home country should not be if you specify to transfer in your home currency. If your Thai bank converts it surely it gets the foreign transfer tag?

With Bangkok Bank yes, but not with all other banks who don't notify the local branches, when forwarding from their HQ, hence it's coded as a local domestic transfer.

KK is an example, where you then have to request a 'credit receipt' from their HQ as proof of the International transfer.

[jacko45k]

2 minutes ago, Tanoshi said:

With Bangkok Bank yes, but not with all other banks who don't notify the local branches, when forwarding from their HQ, hence it's coded as a local domestic transfer.

KK is an example, where you then have to request a 'credit receipt' from their HQ as proof of the International transfer.

As I stated.....

[Tanoshi]

21 minutes ago, jacko45k said:

As I stated.....

It's converted at the HQ, who are the only branch with a SWIFT code, before being transferred in baht to your local branch.

It's not solely the method of transfer used, but the various processes of transfers by the HQ to local branches that have to be taken into consideration.

[rexall]

On 8/10/2019 at 10:56 AM, adam1948 said:

 I'm probably one of a few hundred thousand Expats who have retired to Thailand, got married to a wonderful Thai Lady and have built a home for our family of four ... Since I(we) have invested at least 1,000,000 baht or more in our home and plan to live the rest of our lives here why not make it easy on us by allowing us to use our property value(1,000,000 Baht) to satisfy the monetary portion of "Marriage O" visa extension

many of us are property owners, why not use the property as the collateral and allow us to use the cash for daily living expenses,

You could (or at least you used to be able to) if it was a condo.  But as greasy, slimy foreigner are not allowed to own property in Thailand, you obviously could not use it as "collateral."  Technically, any money your wife might give you would not be useful unless the funds originated offshore.

[rexall]

Regarding the comments about TransferWise deposits being marked as international deposits.  Many of us with a BBL account have been calling TW just after we initiate a transfer and requesting that TW manually route it through BBL.  TW have been quite clear that they can make the request but cannot guarantee the results. However, after deposits began showing up in July as SWIFT and people began requesting manual routing, I have not heard of one that did not get noted as International Transfer.  Perhaps some have, and there isn't a huge sample in any case, but the preliminary results seem positive.

Edited August 11, 2019 by rexall