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Meeting with immigration about TM30 and the latest news about the petition

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13 minutes ago, KhaoYai said:

Power-of-Attorney-Form for TM30.pdf 300.27 kB · 1 download

For the first registration it all depends on the requirements of your local office. Some appear to just want it done and require very little. I'm registered online now but when I originally went to my local office nearly a year ago, I was firstly told that the registered owner would have to attend but later they agreed to accept a signed copy of her tabien baan and ID card.

 

There is also a power of attorney form specific to TM30 that the official housemaster can sign and let you use - I've attached it to this post.

 

 

I found this Power of Attorney form the other day ... I now have it completed...what do I do with it? Today I was going to go Immigration and ask..can you give me a 'heads up' please

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44 minutes ago, JAS21 said:

I found this Power of Attorney form the other day ... I now have it completed...what do I do with it? Today I was going to go Immigration and ask..can you give me a 'heads up' please

A power of attorney from your landlord is not required at the majority of immigration offices to do the TM30 form submittal.

I can only recall Phuket immigration asking for one.

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Posted (edited)
9 hours ago, JAS21 said:

I found this Power of Attorney form the other day ... I now have it completed...what do I do with it? Today I was going to go Immigration and ask..can you give me a 'heads up' please

Take it with you when you make the first registration - it may be useful if you have any problems. However, going on recent reports, it seems that most offices just want TM30 doing and are not being as pedantic over the housemaster's being present etc. etc.

 

In general I have found that Thai authotities (not only immigration) do not quite understand what a power of attorney conveys. On a couple of occasions I've has a POA rejected. The PEA for example wouldn't accept a POA when I wanted to uprgade my electricity supply and like immigration, initially insisted on the 'housemaster' being present to sign the required forms.  Likewise they don't understand the powers bestowed upon the holder of a Usufruct agreement - I can build on the land I hold under usufruct but they want the housemaster present if I want an electricity supply connecting to that building!

 

The same goes for yellow tabien baan's - Pak Chong Amphur will not issue me with one unless the registered owner is physically present when I apply.

 

I could not believe the change in attitude at Korat Immigration - after initially giving me a hard time in trying to register TM30 they ended up completing the online version for me.  I guess its just something we have to accept and it will continue until each office is given clear written instructions on the process and told to stick to them.

 

The registered owner of my property lives in Surin - 260km away (3 - 3.5 hours) so its not exactly convenient for them to be present when I need something official doing.

Edited by KhaoYai

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On 8/12/2019 at 1:14 PM, schlemmi said:

Please give us a translation of the housemasterdefinition in the people registration act.

 

In the case of a rented residence and based on the definition of House Master in section 4 of the Immigration Act

“ House Master ” means any person who is the chief possessor of the residence in the capacity of tenant.

 

Tenant = chief possessor = House Master

 

Let us please stop this bickering between you and other posters about the definition of the house master or other persons (owner, possessor) mentioned in section 38 of the Immigration Act as being responsible for notifying the arrival of a foreigner to immigration.

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10 hours ago, ubonjoe said:

A power of attorney from your landlord is not required at the majority of immigration offices to do the TM30 form submittal.

I can only recall Phuket immigration asking for one.

I have submitted the TM30 myself twice without anything from the landlord. This was at Chonburi Immigration. 

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11 hours ago, Maestro said:

In the case of a rented residence and based on the definition of House Master in section 4 of the Immigration Act

“ House Master ” means any person who is the chief possessor of the residence in the capacity of tenant.

 

Tenant = chief possessor = House Master

 

Let us please stop this bickering between you and other posters about the definition of the house master or other persons (owner, possessor) mentioned in section 38 of the Immigration Act as being responsible for notifying the arrival of a foreigner to immigration.

I was googling to see if I could find if this is a Thai specific thing, or whether the laws have parity with those from the West. The best explanation I found was in this article on Zimbabwean law, which sounds quite similar in the distinction made between ownership and possession. If immigration continue to stubbornly insist on TM30s for all travel, but manage to create a user friendly and reliable app and a more reasonable timeframe for reporting, this is at least easier for people to comply with than hassling the landlord each time you return. I'd be curious if any legal minds on the forum know whether this is common legal practice in law in the major Western countries.

 

"Although the terms “ownership” and “possession” may be closely related, they are not synonyms. They, however, both relate to property, be it movable or immovable, tangible or intangible.
To start with, ownership is just that, ownership. On the other hand, possession is the state of being in actual physical control of something.
Often, ownership and possession are crocheted together where the owner and the possessor are one and the same.
It is common cause that a thing can be owned by one person and yet be possessed by another.
A good example is what happens in a lease agreement. The property is owned by the landlord but is possessed by the tenant. If you send your car to the mechanic for service, the mechanic becomes the possessor but you remain the owner."

https://www.sundaymail.co.zw/property-ownership-possession-and-the-law

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I was googling to see if I could find if this is a Thai specific thing, or whether the laws have parity with those from the West. The best explanation I found was in this article on Zimbabwean law, which sounds quite similar in the distinction made between ownership and possession. If immigration continue to stubbornly insist on TM30s for all travel, but manage to create a user friendly and reliable app and a more reasonable timeframe for reporting, this is at least easier for people to comply with than hassling the landlord each time you return. I'd be curious if any legal minds on the forum know whether this is common legal practice in law in the major Western countries.
 
"Although the terms “ownership” and “possession” may be closely related, they are not synonyms. They, however, both relate to property, be it movable or immovable, tangible or intangible.
To start with, ownership is just that, ownership. On the other hand, possession is the state of being in actual physical control of something.
Often, ownership and possession are crocheted together where the owner and the possessor are one and the same.
It is common cause that a thing can be owned by one person and yet be possessed by another.
A good example is what happens in a lease agreement. The property is owned by the landlord but is possessed by the tenant. If you send your car to the mechanic for service, the mechanic becomes the possessor but you remain the owner."

https://www.sundaymail.co.zw/property-ownership-possession-and-the-law

What if you don’t have a lease agreement because you are married to the Landlord and you wife don’t know you are stay overnight in her property?


Sent from my iPad using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

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2 minutes ago, wobalt said:

What if you don’t have a lease agreement because you are married to the Landlord and you wife don’t know you are stay overnight in her property?

I can't imagine why anyone would ever bother filing in such circumstances. This would be a bit like reporting to the police station and voluntarily turning yourself in for speeding, when you hadn't been caught doing it. 

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I can't imagine why anyone would ever bother filing in such circumstances. This would be a bit like reporting to the police station and voluntarily turning yourself in for speeding, when you hadn't been caught doing it. 

Agree , especially when you leave early in the morning to BKK where you possibly stay in a hotel,which reports you.


Sent from my iPad using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

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Posted (edited)
12 minutes ago, wobalt said:

Agree , especially when you leave early in the morning to BKK where you possibly stay in a hotel,which reports you.

Right, the TM30 deals with arriving in a place but not departing - one of it's glaring loopholes. Any would-be terrorist could show up in the country and check in to a Bangkok hotel for a night or two, before setting out to an unregistered safe house where they can assemble bombs all day long. If this sounds like an absurd exanple, it's the one used by immigration themselves in their video explaining the need for the TM30 reports. 

Edited by lamyai3
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19 hours ago, lamyai3 said:

...I'd be curious if any legal minds on the forum know whether this is common legal practice in law in the major Western countries...

 

What is commonly legal practice in any other country is completely irrelevant to this topic and any such information being posted would be off topic and subject to removal by a moderator.

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The TM30 is pure rubbish. It is not linking reports it is simply registering them. There is no link investigation process unless you are on police radar and they may use TM30 to track last known whereabouts. The only time you get caught is when you do not have one and you are applying for some kind of extension. Reporting back after a weekend in another province is pure rubbish and cannot be tracked. 

 

 

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On 8/13/2019 at 6:27 PM, Maestro said:

 

In the case of a rented residence and based on the definition of House Master in section 4 of the Immigration Act

“ House Master ” means any person who is the chief possessor of the residence in the capacity of tenant.

 

Tenant = chief possessor = House Master

 

Let us please stop this bickering between you and other posters about the definition of the house master or other persons (owner, possessor) mentioned in section 38 of the Immigration Act as being responsible for notifying the arrival of a foreigner to immigration.

House master is the one registered as house master in the tabiaan ban and no one else.

 

 

That's why the airport system doesn't kick anyone out of the tm30 register if he's registered in the housebook.

 

There are many cross references to this in thai law.

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Posted (edited)

Owner = เจ้าของ

Possessor= เจ้าของ

 

Note the similarity ? Thai language has no simple way of distinguishing between the two. It follows that an English translation will also not make any distinction.

Edited by roamer

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On 8/8/2019 at 3:08 PM, pookiki said:

I applaud your efforts.  However, I think Thai Immigration Official must clearly recognize that there are different categories addressed in your conversation.

 

One example is visitors arriving in Phuket, marrying a Thai, and then disappearing. I fail to see how these kind of nefarious individuals fit it with long-term expats.  These people are simply ignoring the law and are overstayers.

 

Second example - migrant workers. I seriously doubt the Thai Immigration is maintaining a TM30 database for migrant workers in the same way as for other long-term expats or persons who are on work permits who aren't migrant workers.  The vast majority of properly documented migrant workers use agents for most, if not all, of their interactions with Thai Immigration.  For this group of people, the TM30 is simply not an issue.

 

Third example - leaving the country for long-term expats and foreigners on work permits who aren't migrant workers. If the information on the TM6 and on the subsequent TM47 was the same as previously reported, then there should be no need to file another TM30.  The TM30 should only be required if there is a permanent change in address.

 

Fourth example - internal travel within Thailand.  If a Thai hotel reports a TM30 for a long-term expat or a foreigner on a work permit, it should be disregarded in its entirety as it does not note a permanent change in address.

 

There is a difference between 'good guys' and 'bad guys' and its really quite easy to differentiate!

Correct. The problem is that to Thais, we are ALL just foreigners. No other designation matters. They do not care that long-term foreigners, like those on Non Immigrant Visas, have already been vetted. They only care that we are foreigners.

 

The hilarious part of this whole thing is that the Thais themselves habitually break laws and so many get involved in crimes. Yet, they are not being tracked as vigorously.

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