Lastest from Richard Barrow on TM30

[NCC1701A]

"This blog post is basically a wrap-up of everything I have learned so far after attending two chamber of commerce meetings, asking questions to senior Immigration officers, and speaking at the Foreign Correspondents Club of Thailand."

 

http://www.richardbarrow.com/2019/08/everything-i-know-about-the-tm30-form-after-attending-chamber-of-commerce-meetings-and-speaking-at-the-fcct/

[jackdd]

Many things in this article are just wrong, too many for me to correct them all now, so i only correct the biggest mistake:

Quote

The TM30 form is the obligation of the landlord to fill out, not the tenant.

This is wrong, if you stay at a house or condo and have a rental contract in your name you will be considered the possessor and you also have the obligation to submit the TM30

Edited August 18, 2019 by jackdd

[Catkiwi]

How does anyone know if you have travelled out of the province for the weekend? I would be filling out and going through the TM30 submission rigmarole most weekends, travelling inter-province to play golf....I guess I am not alone in this situation and I also guess that the majority will just not bother. 

 

Edited August 18, 2019 by Catkiwi
punctuation

[rumak]

6 minutes ago, jackdd said:

Many things in this article are just wrong, too many for me to correct them all now, so i only correct the biggest mistake:

Quote

The TM30 form is the obligation of the landlord to fill out, not the tenant.

This is wrong, if you stay at a house or condo and have a rental contract in your name you will be considered the possessor and you also have the obligation to submit the TM30

Edited just now by jackdd

I will give MY take on this based on my experience as a Landlord in Chiangmai.   I do believe that many other provinces would treat it the same way..(but of that I of course am not sure.... Here is how we do it:

WHEN A PERSON wants to rent from us we tell them what CM immig told us.  We as owners should do the first one when the tenant moves in.  After that the tenant must go WITH THEIR PASSPORT and initial tm30 receipt to the immig office to report that they have just returned.  Up till now CM only requires that after returning from out of the country .  NOTE:  the more people that go there and start complaining the quicker they might require more stringent reporting ! 

Five years of doing this (since they started enforcing the tm30) and we nor a tenant has ever had a problem.  If someone told us the we as owners had to do it every time we would not rent to them.

The big problem for renters is really when they rent somewhere that is not within a short drive to the immig office ( CM is a very large province, for example)   

The ongoing and never resolved argument about who is responsible is made VOID when the tenant and landlord agree beforehand how it will be handled.   Just like many immig things, it is open to interpretation, not black and white as the debaters insist.  Like I said,  I was told by CM how to do it and we have not had any problems following it that way.

[rumak]

10 minutes ago, Catkiwi said:

How does anyone know if you have travelled out of the province for the weekend? I would be filling out and going through the TM30 submission rigmarole most weekends, travelling inter-province to play golf....I guess I am not alone in this situation and I also guess that the majority will just not bother.

I don't know how many provinces require strict adherence or whether they are like CM where so far it is only required after leaving the country ( and going to report a few days later so far has been fine for most people).      Like i posted above, if you know that what your local office wants, then plan from that.

Edited August 18, 2019 by rumak

[Salerno]

10 minutes ago, Catkiwi said:

How does anyone know if you have travelled out of the province for the weekend?

They don't ... unless you stay somewhere that lodges a TM30.

 

Which is why the hysteria on here is so ridiculous.

[jackdd]

11 minutes ago, rumak said:

I do believe that many other provinces would treat it the same way..(but of that I of course am not sure.... Here is how we do it:

That's a CM speciality, actually a good one to make it easier, but afaik CM is the only province doing it this way

 

11 minutes ago, rumak said:

We as owners should do the first one when the tenant moves in.

There is no need for the owner to do the first, this can be done by the tenant.

Important is that Chiang Mai requires one initial TM30 with the supporting documents, after you have done this the foreigner staying at this address can to it by himself in the way you described. (Submitting a TM30 + documents every time is of course still possible to do, so if somebody lives far away from the immigration office to do it the regular way by mail might be easier)

Edited August 18, 2019 by jackdd

[rumak]

4 minutes ago, jackdd said:

That's a CM speciality, actually a good one to make it easier, but afaik CM is the only province doing it this way

 

There is no need for the owner to do the first, this can be done by the tenant.

Important is that they require one initial TM30 with the supporting documents, after you have done this the foreigner staying at this address can to it by himself in the way you described. (Submitting a TM30 + documents is of course still possible to do, so if somebody lives far away from the immigration office to do it the regular way by mail might be easier)

We do it first to INSURE that it is done properly .  I find that tenants usually don't understand as well as we do how to get it done easily so better we do for OUR peace of mind  ????

As for other provinces... Maybe someone can start a thread and ask ?  Hell, whats one more TM30 thread  lol

CM used to be the WORST place to deal with.  Not bad nowadays.  And when returning to report no forms or anything (except new arrival card no) .   Maybe a 5 minute procedure

Edited August 18, 2019 by rumak

[wobalt]

If you travel a lot, It seems to become more convenient for a 60/90 day Visaholder to stay in hotels, rather than staying at your own condo or house


Gesendet von iPad mit Thaivisa Connect

[samtam]

Another issue that is very unclear is the notion that you only complete a TM.30 if you return from visiting another province, (or returning from abroad).

This is not so. I live and own my condo in Bangkok. During its 4+ months of renovation I am staying at a serviced apartment, which filed a TM.30 when I checked in. When I return to my renovated apartment, I will have to complete a TM.30, although I have not left Thailand, or Bangkok, or the district in Bangkok. (My condo address is still my permanent address, so I do not complete a TM.28.)

[Kadilo]

1 hour ago, Catkiwi said:

How does anyone know if you have travelled out of the province for the weekend? I would be filling out and going through the TM30 submission rigmarole most weekends, travelling inter-province to play golf....I guess I am not alone in this situation and I also guess that the majority will just not bother. 

 

Because where you stay will submit one so it will be shown on record that you failed to report your return. 

 

Its happened to me but fortunately I returned to the office within 24 hours so the records tied up. 

Edited August 18, 2019 by Kadilo

[ubonjoe]

Some inflammatory posts and replies to them have been removed.

[samtam]

And by the by, kudos to Richard Barrow and the FCCT and the panelists, including the senior Immigration staff who attended. The answers were not wholly satisfactory, but at least the Police General has said they "will look into the issues" that were raised. I am not hopeful of any speedy changes to make life more convenient for all parties concerned, including the bureaucracy at Immigration, and indeed, he said as much.

[theoldgit]

Post in breach of forum rules removed, together with a response.

[KBS999]

Ive had a retirement visa for 5 years. I didn't come here for any of this, TM30, 90 days, money in the bank. Its all too much. So many other places to go with out all this nonsense. Leaving in 8 days. YIPPEE 

[Salerno]

Thanks for creating an(other) account to tell us all  

[My 2 cents]

14 minutes ago, samtam said:

And by the by, kudos to Richard Barrow and the FCCT and the panelists, including the senior Immigration staff who attended. The answers were not wholly satisfactory, but at least the Police General has said they "will look into the issues" that were raised. I am not hopeful of any speedy changes to make life more convenient for all parties concerned, including the bureaucracy at Immigration, and indeed, he said as much.

I have read the blog from Richard Barrow and now might feel even more confused.

 

At one hand there is the "law" and on the other hand there are "opinions how to interpret this law" and it seems that the persons at "senior Immigration Staff"  where speaking on their own offices behalf and not nation wide.

 

It feels a kind of silly but it seems that the only "law" they want to enforce is about TM30 ( art 38 ) and the TM47 ( art 37 ) and somehow everybody has to carry the burden but Immigration office's

 

A lot of info, to find in a lot of different topics,  forums and then some internet places, but somehow they all mix up the "law" applicable.

 

for me; i will do my best to comply, but i do travel a lot (different provinces) and not always sleep in a hotel... most of the places i attend are schools where i lecture or temples where i give classes or shows... and so far they provided me with accommodation for sleepover.

 

I do have an "fixed" adres with yellow Tabien Baan, Pink ID card, DL with my thai ID nr on it and some paperwork that allow's me to travel around.

I do have a TE 20 year visa but don't have / need a work permit to do what i do.

 

I will patiently wait how things will unfold and will comply to the best of my knowledge and within the limits of what is human possible 

My friends suggest that we could file each time per registered mail but that would lean towards malicious compliance if everybody would do so.
( how much paperwork would it create if every foreigner would drop his whereabouts per post onto each Immigration Officers desk ?)

[Traubert]

2 hours ago, Salerno said:

They don't ... unless you stay somewhere that lodges a TM30.

 

Which is why the hysteria on here is so ridiculous.

I pointed that out before and the level of hysteria went from off the scale to interstellar.

 

I should have invested in a hypertension pharma manufacturer first. ????

[Orton Rd]

2 hours ago, jackdd said:

Many things in this article are just wrong, too many for me to correct them all now, so i only correct the biggest mistake:

This is wrong, if you stay at a house or condo and have a rental contract in your name you will be considered the possessor and you also have the obligation to submit the TM30

Barrow's immigration office stamps a warning on the 90 day receipts that within 24 hours of returning to the kingdom the FOREIGNER has to report, I know as I get the same.

[samtam]

4 minutes ago, My 2 cents said:

My friends suggest that we could file each time per registered mail but that would lean towards malicious compliance if everybody would do so.
( how much paperwork would it create if every foreigner would drop his whereabouts per post onto each Immigration Officers desk ?)

At the moment we (without User IDs and passwords) have no alternative, (to avoid a visit in person to CW in my case). It's not malicious compliance, but just compliance. The IMM officers at the FCCT complained of long hours and being overworked, failing to see the irony of a problem in their own making, and failing to see the obvious solution at their disposal, (adding sufficient staff to cope with their enforcement of a 40 year old dormant law). Indeed, they did not answer any of these related issues, but trotted out the falsehood that it's "easy" to register online, despite strong evidence to the contrary, of which they must be aware. None of their responses to questions actually answered what was being asked. The only faint glimmer of hope is that if they were not aware of the problems of the enforcement of this law in particular, (but as we know, not many others in the kingdom, such as, for example driving laws etc), they have acknowledged that now they are. They did not offer any means of addressing the issues, which would after all beneficially affect their own operation, and fulfill their well-intentioned desire to protect the security of the Thai state, for both Thais and foreigners. Unfortunately I do not expect any changes to be implemented.

 

[Neeranam]

1 hour ago, KBS999 said:

Ive had a retirement visa for 5 years. I didn't come here for any of this, TM30, 90 days, money in the bank. Its all too much. So many other places to go with out all this nonsense. Leaving in 8 days. YIPPEE 

Yes, when I reid I'll be so busy, I won't have time to spend 10 min at immigration 4 times a year,  and the odd TM 30. 

 

And getting my pension sent to a local bank,  what an inconvenience !!

[berybert]

7 minutes ago, Neeranam said:

Yes, when I reid I'll be so busy, I won't have time to spend 10 min at immigration 4 times a year,  and the odd TM 30. 

 

And getting my pension sent to a local bank,  what an inconvenience !!

10 minutes at immigration ? Takes me over an hour to get there, best part of 2 hours doing a TM30 and over half a day to do my extension of stay. Then an hour to get home. 

Enjoy your 10 minutes.

[JohnnyBKK]

For me it's simple, if I don't get my password for the TM30 I will not do it neither the 90 days report as it can't be done without TM30. I will not spend a whole day at the immigration to file those documents. 

[rumak]

3 hours ago, KBS999 said:

Ive had a retirement visa for 5 years. I didn't come here for any of this, TM30, 90 days, money in the bank. Its all too much. So many other places to go with out all this nonsense. Leaving in 8 days. YIPPEE 

where to ?

[evadgib]

5 hours ago, rumak said:

Just like many immig things, it is open to interpretation, not black and white as the debaters insist.  Like I said,  I was told by CM how to do it and we have not had any problems following it that way.

This would be a whole lot easier if one person (the Home Secretary for example in UK in reverse) made a decision and disseminated it to all offices around the Kingdom instead of the current system of delegating to 'a bloke with a whistle in the car park'!

[KiChakayan]

Just gone, one more time, through this abject mess, and the only conclusion I can draw is that our duty would be to spread the word that Thailand is such a safe country that the whereabouts of every foreigner must be monitored every 24hours to ensure the safety of the population. Possibly we should request from our embassies to issue a security warning to that effect.

[jackdd]

1 hour ago, JohnnyBKK said:

For me it's simple, if I don't get my password for the TM30 I will not do it neither the 90 days report as it can't be done without TM30. I will not spend a whole day at the immigration to file those documents. 

You will be the one paying the fines, the IO won't mind.

 

13 minutes ago, evadgib said:

This would be a whole lot easier if one person (the Home Secretary for example in UK in reverse) made a decision and disseminated it to all offices around the Kingdom instead of the current system of delegating to 'a bloke with a whistle in the car park'!

This is published already, if you don't want to risk a fine just follow the written law.

This means every time you stay or come back to stay somewhere where you are the owner, housemaster or possessor you have to file a TM30 for yourself.

Afaik all changes to the application of the law which are done by the different immigration offices make following the law easier.

[JohnnyBKK]

1 minute ago, jackdd said:

You will be the one paying the fines, the IO won't mind.

 

This is published already, if you don't want to risk a fine just follow the written law.

This means every time you stay or come back to stay somewhere where you are the owner, housemaster or possessor you have to file a TM30 for yourself.

Afaik all changes to the application of the law which are done by the different immigration offices make following the law easier.

I don't care paying fines, what I care about is my precious time. As long as I'm not banned for not filing the tm30 and 90 days report it's fine. They are asking for too many documents that are impossible to get without a visit to the immigration.

[KiChakayan]

3 hours ago, Neeranam said:

And getting my pension sent to a local bank,  what an inconvenience !!

None so far, but what if they started hitting you with income tax? Which they could do if they applied Thai law, as they do now for the TM30.

Edited August 18, 2019 by KiChakayan

[JohnnyBKK]

9 minutes ago, KiChakayan said:

None so far, but what if they started hitting you with income tax? Which they could do if they applied Thai law, as they do now for the TM30.

People come to Thailand to be hassle free, if things are like back in our countries, it's better to stay in our own countries.