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UK plans to end EU freedom of movement immediately in no-deal Brexit


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30 minutes ago, stevenl said:

Previous payments in have no bearing at all on entitlements. Don't like it, change the system.

As far as I know no individual can change the scheme but I know for a fact that we'd all be interested to know how you yourself would go about changing it.

 

However I personally don't need to change the system. If I lived overseas and needed treatment I'd simply do what others do and take up residence in the UK again.

 

The objective of insurance means that you get paid out when you require it as long as you've paid enough premiums. If the insurer refuses to pay out a court would likely order a refund of all premiums paid. Whatever way they try to twist it National Insurance is an insurance scheme.

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1 hour ago, aright said:

By lying about your personal circumstances which I agree is not illegal, more a life style choice. Do you do the same with your taxes?

No that's the preserve of the rich. I can remember my local MP who was the major shareholder and heir to the Guinness fortune, bragging in my local pub that he had only paid £10 income tax in the previous year.

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14 minutes ago, DannyCarlton said:

No that's the preserve of the rich. I can remember my local MP who was the major shareholder and heir to the Guinness fortune, bragging in my local pub that he had only paid £10 income tax in the previous year.

I'm not sure how telling me about someone else's attitude to the payment of taxes justifies you  lying about your personal circumstances. Because someone drives down a road 20mph over the speed limit and gets away with it does that justify you doing it?

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43 minutes ago, yogi100 said:

As far as I know no individual can change the scheme but I know for a fact that we'd all be interested to know how you yourself would go about changing it.

 

However I personally don't need to change the system. If I lived overseas and needed treatment I'd simply do what others do and take up residence in the UK again.

 

The objective of insurance means that you get paid out when you require it as long as you've paid enough premiums. If the insurer refuses to pay out a court would likely order a refund of all premiums paid. Whatever way they try to twist it National Insurance is an insurance scheme.

Yes, it is insurance for the members. Not living in the UK, not a member, no insurance.

 

Same as your household insurance. Stop paying, no cover.

 

"The objective of insurance means that you get paid out when you require it as long as you've paid enough premiums."

Correct would be '"The objective of insurance means that you get paid out when you require it as long as you've paid your premiums."'. Only certain forms of life insurance operate on different premises.

 

Yes, seems unfair. I am not happy about this myself, since also for me the system is the same. It is even worse, the rules changed while I was living abroad already: I was covered due to past payments, but when the system was changed it was 'only if you're paying in now'. For older people and people with pre-existing conditions a real pain since they were covered, and suddenly no more coverage with problems getting health insurance elsewhere.

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25 minutes ago, aright said:

I'm not sure how telling me about someone else's attitude to the payment of taxes justifies you  lying about your personal circumstances. Because someone drives down a road 20mph over the speed limit and gets away with it does that justify you doing it?

Oh we don't want to get into trouble do we.

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6 hours ago, yogi100 said:

If a Briton has paid his national insurance premiums into the system all his working life how is he cheating it if he needs and receives health treatment.

 

It's cheating the system to deny it to him while allowing foreigners who've never contributed a penny to get it. Those who permit such a disgraceful state of affairs are the real culprits when it cones to 'cheating any system'!

 

 

 If access and entitlement to the NHS was based upon NICs then British children, British students and other British citizens who, for one reason or another, have not paid any NICs would not be entitled to use the service!

 

But, of course, they are. This is because access to the NHS is based upon residency, not NICs. Taxes pay for most of the NHS, not NICs, most of which covers state pensions.

 

Any British citizen who is ordinarily resident in the UK is entitled to the full range of NHS services.

 

Any British citizen who has been living abroad and is returning to the UK to resume or take up residence is entitled to the full range of NHS services the moment the arrive.

 

EU/EEA nationals who are coming to the UK for more than 6 months are, at the moment, entitled to the full range of NHS services due to a reciprocal agreement which means British nationals resident in EU/EEA countries are entitled to use the state health service there.

 

Non EU/EEA nationals who are coming to the UK for more than 6 months, including the spouses or partners of British citizens, have to pay an immigration health surcharge of £400 per annum, rounded up to the next 6 months, as part of the visa or leave to remain application. This means that they can use the full range of NHS services once here.

 

Those entering the UK for less than 6 months, including EU/EEA nationals are not classed as ordinarily resident and so, apart from initial treatment at an A&E department and a couple of other treatments to safeguard public health, are supposed to pay 150% of the cost of their treatment.

 

If they don't pay it's usually because hospitals and other health care providers can't be bothered to charge them. But if they are charged and don't pay this will be on record and any future attempt to enter the UK will be refused until they do pay.

 

Of course, sensible people have health insurance when visiting another country. For EU/EEA nationals this would be a European Health Insurance Card, whereby the cost of any treatment they may receive whilst in the UK is covered by their home country.

 

 

 

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@yogi100, @<deleted> dasterdly, et al,

 

Nostalgic essays notwithstanding, the fact is that most British workers are less willing to be seasonal, migrant workers on the land than they used to be.

 

Not because they are lazy, but because they want more secure, permanent, better paid employment close to home.

 

Of course, migrant farm labour is nothing new; from Irish workers as far back as the 14th century to workers from Eastern Europe and the Soviet Union in the second half of the 20th under the Seasonal Agricultural Workers Scheme (SAWS) which was introduced in 1945 as British and Irish workers left the land for more permanent work elsewhere. SAWS was abolished in 2013 due to the increased availability of EU workers.

 

Yes, families from the big cities did travel en masse to do fruit picking, hop picking etc. as their summer 'holiday' but this wasn't stopped by child labour laws, which date back to the 19th century, but mainly by cheap foreign travel when the attractions of a beach holiday in Spain outweighed those of picking hops in Kent!

 

I have previously provided a link to page after page of job adverts for agricultural workers, most paying well above minimum wage.  

 

It's the same in the building trade. I visit construction sites, big and small, as part of my work. Yes, there are eastern European workers on most sites; but lots of British ones as well. Search for 'Building Labouring Jobs' and you will get page after page of results. Even more if you search for a specific trade!

 

None of which are paying starvation wages either! I'm currently in West Yorkshire and my search brought up vacancies here: £12+ per hour or £100+ a day is not unusual for a labourer, £18+ per hour or £150+ per day for bricklayers. Have a look at the rates offered in London, they're even higher!

 

Care homes are another sector which relies heavily on migrant, often EU national, workers. This time you don't have to do a Google search, just drive past any care home anywhere; they're all advertising for staff. If you do enquire, they also usually pay above minimum wage.

 

So can a Brexiteer explain how EU workers are taking the jobs of British workers and driving wages down; the facts show a completely different story.

 

 

 

 

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11 hours ago, 7by7 said:

@yogi100, @<deleted> dasterdly, et al,

 

Nostalgic essays notwithstanding, the fact is that most British workers are less willing to be seasonal, migrant workers on the land than they used to be.

 

Not because they are lazy, but because they want more secure, permanent, better paid employment close to home.

 

Of course, migrant farm labour is nothing new; from Irish workers as far back as the 14th century to workers from Eastern Europe and the Soviet Union in the second half of the 20th under the Seasonal Agricultural Workers Scheme (SAWS) which was introduced in 1945 as British and Irish workers left the land for more permanent work elsewhere. SAWS was abolished in 2013 due to the increased availability of EU workers.

 

Yes, families from the big cities did travel en masse to do fruit picking, hop picking etc. as their summer 'holiday' but this wasn't stopped by child labour laws, which date back to the 19th century, but mainly by cheap foreign travel when the attractions of a beach holiday in Spain outweighed those of picking hops in Kent!

 

I have previously provided a link to page after page of job adverts for agricultural workers, most paying well above minimum wage.  

 

It's the same in the building trade. I visit construction sites, big and small, as part of my work. Yes, there are eastern European workers on most sites; but lots of British ones as well. Search for 'Building Labouring Jobs' and you will get page after page of results. Even more if you search for a specific trade!

 

None of which are paying starvation wages either! I'm currently in West Yorkshire and my search brought up vacancies here: £12+ per hour or £100+ a day is not unusual for a labourer, £18+ per hour or £150+ per day for bricklayers. Have a look at the rates offered in London, they're even higher!

 

Care homes are another sector which relies heavily on migrant, often EU national, workers. This time you don't have to do a Google search, just drive past any care home anywhere; they're all advertising for staff. If you do enquire, they also usually pay above minimum wage.

 

So can a Brexiteer explain how EU workers are taking the jobs of British workers and driving wages down; the facts show a completely different story.

 

 

 

 

Because Brexit fans don't do facts as facts often directly contradict their myopic world view.

They 'feel' that they are losing their Britishness (whatever that is) and that there's too many foreigners 'taking their jobs'. It's been a method used by politicians forever (and is currently quite popular with Trump and his merry band of cult followers). It's used quite as often as it is because it works so well; get the working man to blame the foreigners for all the problems and perhaps they won't look too closely at who is creating the real problems.

No point in trying to show them this. They simply won't listen   

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18 hours ago, 7by7 said:

 Any British citizen who is ordinarily resident in the UK is entitled to the full range of NHS services.

 

Any British citizen who has been living abroad and is returning to the UK to resume or take up residence is entitled to the full range of NHS services the moment the arrive.

 

Exactly, and there is no specific law on ordinary residence it is a legal assessment, so people should refrain from claiming what they think is against the law.

As for calling it abuse, people should remember who exactly has been abused.

 

"The term ordinary residence is not defined in the immigration or nationality acts and has not been defined in any Act of Parliament."

 

• ordinary residence is established if there is a regular habitual mode of life in a particular place for the time being, whether of short or long duration, the continuity of which has persisted apart from temporary or occasional absences, residence must be both:

o voluntary

o adopted for a settled purpose

• a person can be ordinarily resident in more than one country at the same time, distinguishing it from domiciled

• ordinary residence is proven more by objective evidence than evidence of an individual’s state of mind at a point in time

 

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/655489/Nationality-policy-assessing-ordinary-residence-v2.0EXT.pdf

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