After Germany hints at compromise, France tells UK: no new Brexit deal

[dick dasterdly]

1 hour ago, bristolboy said:

An emended version.

And more than a few people still don't realise that these 'accusations' can be pointed at more than a few politicians.... - but seriously annoy those of us who know that 99% of politicians are corrupt - and they nearly all (?) support remain.  Question mark, as I suspect all support remain - but a few are worried about not being elected again if they make it obvious that they are ignoring their constituents vote.....

[CanterbrigianBangkoker]

1 hour ago, bristolboy said:

An emended version.

 

1 hour ago, chaila said:

Much of this is just misinformation or misrepresentation - to further an agenda.

 

The Farage comment is redundant as his children have the claim to a German passport, since their mother is German. What is unusual or underhand about that?

 

Chandler applied for Maltese citizenship before the referendum, not knowing what the outcome would be, so that argument is somewhat flawed.

 

Banks has had business assets off shore and had non-dom status well before 2016 - with assets and accounts/businesses registereded in Isle of Man, Cayman islands, Belize, BVI and others - all are tax havens and most of which are outside of the EU. 

 

Andy Wigmore has been a dual citizen of both Belize and the UK since birth I believe, he has owned property/lived in Belize on and off for years, so again this is total misrepresentation for the authors own purposes.

 

JRM hasn't (to my knowledge) 'moved all his assets offshore to Ireland', he has simply - and by his own admission - opened up a fund in Dublin, one of many around the world. There is no head office in Ireland nor capital, nor substantial assets, simply a newly opened fund. So again, this is misrepresentation. He has refuted this claim many times publically, it's simply fake news.

 

Dyson has been relocated his buiness operations to Singapore/Malaysia piece by piece over many years, with their R+D depts. still in the UK, but the company hasn't manufactured anything in the UK since 2003. Tax incentives, regional supply chain and regional (Asian) demand have been given as the main reasons for the HQ's move to SGP. In reality the COO and CLO were the only people who were relocated from the UK, where Dyson's businesses employ over 4500 people. 

 

Lord Lawson has reportedly sold his French mansion to return to be based solely in the UK - with a Europhile newspaper quoting the following: 

 

''it has been reported that Lawson has not applied for residency with his local authority, the préfecture of the Gers, and there is no record of his application'. 

'My house is on the market. It’s well known that I live here, and when I’ve sold it I’ll be moving back to where my children and grandchildren live.'

 

'The Super Rich cannot be trusted' - if that is your point then fair enough, in many cases I would wholeheartedly agree. The same goes for majority of politicians - as we are all aware. Are/were some of these people playing off the expected short term drop in the value of Sterling and FTSE markets to their favour, yes quite possibly. However, neither the aforementioned dubious activities nor applying for citizenship of another country for personal reasons or moving a business's assets there for certain tax reasons mean that those in question are by definition fake Brexiteers or believe that Brexit Britain will suddenly become an unbearable hell-hole once we actually leave. Tax avoidance etc. is a separate issue that should be addressed by the authorities, but is not central to Brexit. Those who are mentioned above wouldn't be effected much by the assumed maladies that will supposedly befall Britain post-Brexit anyway, these people are living in the rarified atmosphere. So why would they feel the need to emigrate en-masse?

 

As previously pointed out, the exact same charges (the ones of the list that are actually valid) could be aimed at many Remain backing politicians/funders too, of course. It's a dirty world, folks, what else is new?!

 

Brexit is and always was (for many of us) about so much more than economics, short terms gains or losses, or the activities of a small group of rather mirky moneymen and their funds - dirty or clean.

That is something that is continuously overlooked, by far too many.

 

 

[dick dasterdly]

At the end of the day, we all know that all politicians are corrupt/self serving etc.

 

It only comes as 'as a suprise'  (joking of course) to those who are determined to pursue a political point against politicians they dislike....

[Laughing Gravy]

51 minutes ago, luckyluke said:

The U.K. can not ignore completely 48% of his voters. 

It was a binary referendum. I know this is a difficult concept to understand in many EU countries who have had their referendum result ignored. It is easier for me and many British people, even those that voted remain.

 

You have a winner and loser but the democratic result must be respected and implement, as promised. if not the whole political system is farcical, like the referendum results that were ignored.

 

 

[vogie]

3 hours ago, DannyCarlton said:

Agreed. And UK could have played a big part in implementing those reforms if it decides to remain. Better standing inside the tent pissing out than outside the tent pissing in.

Better not being in the tent in the first place if your being <deleted> on.

[nauseus]

43 minutes ago, Nigel Garvie said:

I believe most of his money is in the Cayman Islands. His company has avoided paying many £M tax in the last few years. The looming EU Anti Tax Avoidance Directive appears to be causing many of our rich compatriots to support Brexit.

 

When I buy a book on Amazon I want the company to pay corporate tax on it's profits, including the profit on my small purchase, so the money can be spent here on the NHS, Roads, Social services, Defense, etc. I don't want to see Amazon pay a pittance to RI or Luxembourg, why should my purchase help them instead of the UK? 

 

So let's adapt the D Day Dodgers song for todays rich individuals and corporations in Britain.

"We are the rich tax dodgers, and we love the Brexiteers"

Well you can believe what you want I suppose. But those accusations should really be accompanied by some proof, to be fair?

[Laughing Gravy]

1 hour ago, CanterbrigianBangkoker said:

 

Much of this is just misinformation or misrepresentation - to further an agenda.

 

The Farage comment is redundant as his children have the claim to a German passport, since their mother is German. What is unusual or underhand about that?

 

Chandler applied for Maltese citizenship before the referendum, not knowing what the outcome would be, so that argument is somewhat flawed.

 

Banks has had business assets off shore and had non-dom status well before 2016 - with assets and accounts/businesses registereded in Isle of Man, Cayman islands, Belize, BVI and others - all are tax havens and most of which are outside of the EU. 

 

Andy Wigmore has been a dual citizen of both Belize and the UK since birth I believe, he has owned property/lived in Belize on and off for years, so again this is total misrepresentation for the authors own purposes.

 

JRM hasn't (to my knowledge) 'moved all his assets offshore to Ireland', he has simply - and by his own admission - opened up a fund in Dublin, one of many around the world. There is no head office in Ireland nor capital, nor substantial assets, simply a newly opened fund. So again, this is misrepresentation. He has refuted this claim many times publically, it's simply fake news.

 

Dyson has been relocated his buiness operations to Singapore/Malaysia piece by piece over many years, with their R+D depts. still in the UK, but the company hasn't manufactured anything in the UK since 2003. Tax incentives, regional supply chain and regional (Asian) demand have been given as the main reasons for the HQ's move to SGP. In reality the COO and CLO were the only people who were relocated from the UK, where Dyson's businesses employ over 4500 people. 

 

Lord Lawson has reportedly sold his French mansion to return to be based solely in the UK - with a Europhile newspaper quoting the following: 

 

''it has been reported that Lawson has not applied for residency with his local authority, the préfecture of the Gers, and there is no record of his application'. 

'My house is on the market. It’s well known that I live here, and when I’ve sold it I’ll be moving back to where my children and grandchildren live.'

 

'The Super Rich cannot be trusted' - if that is your point then fair enough, in many cases I would wholeheartedly agree. The same goes for majority of politicians - as we are all aware. Are/were some of these people playing off the expected short term drop in the value of Sterling and FTSE markets to their favour, yes quite possibly. However, neither the aforementioned dubious activities nor applying for citizenship of another country for personal reasons or moving a business's assets there for certain tax reasons mean that those in question are by definition fake Brexiteers or believe that Brexit Britain will suddenly become an unbearable hell-hole once we actually leave. Tax avoidance etc. is a separate issue that should be addressed by the authorities, but is not central to Brexit. Those who are mentioned above wouldn't be effected much by the assumed maladies that will supposedly befall Britain post-Brexit anyway, these people are living in the rarified atmosphere. So why would they feel the need to emigrate en-masse?

 

As previously pointed out, the exact same charges (the ones of the list that are actually valid) could be aimed at many Remain backing politicians/funders too, of course. It's a dirty world, folks, what else is new?!

 

Brexit is and always was (for many of us) about so much more than economics, short terms gains or losses, or the activities of a small group of rather mirky moneymen and their funds - dirty or clean.

That is something that is continuously overlooked, by far too many.

 

 

Thanks for talking the time to rectify the blatant lies and show that the poster is peddling fake news and those that support the post are blatantly ignorant. Kudos to you for having the patience to educate those who are in need.

 

I can handle peoples opinions but not blatant stupid lies. There should be some very embarrassed posters.

[CanterbrigianBangkoker]

13 minutes ago, Laughing Gravy said:

Thanks for talking the time to rectify the blatant lies and show that the poster is peddling fake news and those that support the post are blatantly ignorant. Kudos to you for having the patience to educate those who are in need.

 

I can handle peoples opinions but not blatant stupid lies. There should be some very embarrassed posters.

You're very welcome.

 

Fake news and misinformation that is just regurgitated to serve someone's bias or agenda is not helpful and detracts from any debate about the reality of whatever situation is under discussion.

I have heard/read way too much bo***cks floated around about certain people and their motives, most of the time it seems that those echoing the original tosh are doing it simply because they dislike the person in question and their politics, so the truth is a luxury that is dispensed with very quickly. That is the hallmark of the loony left.

 

While some of the fat-cats have undoubtedly done deals that are self-serving off of the back of Brexit, some have also been accused of flagrant falsehoods. Distinguishing between the two is important, but at the end of the day, none of it REALLY makes any odds. Brexit isn't (or at least shouldn't be) about mulitmillionaires' misadventures and unproven economic forecasts.

[oldhippy]

1 hour ago, CanterbrigianBangkoker said:

 

Much of this is just misinformation or misrepresentation - to further an agenda.

 

The Farage comment is redundant as his children have the claim to a German passport, since their mother is German. What is unusual or underhand about that?

 

Chandler applied for Maltese citizenship before the referendum, not knowing what the outcome would be, so that argument is somewhat flawed.

 

Banks has had business assets off shore and had non-dom status well before 2016 - with assets and accounts/businesses registereded in Isle of Man, Cayman islands, Belize, BVI and others - all are tax havens and most of which are outside of the EU. 

 

Andy Wigmore has been a dual citizen of both Belize and the UK since birth I believe, he has owned property/lived in Belize on and off for years, so again this is total misrepresentation for the authors own purposes.

 

JRM hasn't (to my knowledge) 'moved all his assets offshore to Ireland', he has simply - and by his own admission - opened up a fund in Dublin, one of many around the world. There is no head office in Ireland nor capital, nor substantial assets, simply a newly opened fund. So again, this is misrepresentation. He has refuted this claim many times publically, it's simply fake news.

 

Dyson has been relocated his buiness operations to Singapore/Malaysia piece by piece over many years, with their R+D depts. still in the UK, but the company hasn't manufactured anything in the UK since 2003. Tax incentives, regional supply chain and regional (Asian) demand have been given as the main reasons for the HQ's move to SGP. In reality the COO and CLO were the only people who were relocated from the UK, where Dyson's businesses employ over 4500 people. 

 

Lord Lawson has reportedly sold his French mansion to return to be based solely in the UK - with a Europhile newspaper quoting the following: 

 

''it has been reported that Lawson has not applied for residency with his local authority, the préfecture of the Gers, and there is no record of his application'. 

'My house is on the market. It’s well known that I live here, and when I’ve sold it I’ll be moving back to where my children and grandchildren live.'

 

'The Super Rich cannot be trusted' - if that is your point then fair enough, in many cases I would wholeheartedly agree. The same goes for majority of politicians - as we are all aware. Are/were some of these people playing off the expected short term drop in the value of Sterling and FTSE markets to their favour, yes quite possibly. However, neither the aforementioned dubious activities nor applying for citizenship of another country for personal reasons or moving a business's assets there for certain tax reasons mean that those in question are by definition fake Brexiteers or believe that Brexit Britain will suddenly become an unbearable hell-hole once we actually leave. Tax avoidance etc. is a separate issue that should be addressed by the authorities, but is not central to Brexit. Those who are mentioned above wouldn't be effected much by the assumed maladies that will supposedly befall Britain post-Brexit anyway, these people are living in the rarified atmosphere. So why would they feel the need to emigrate en-masse?

 

As previously pointed out, the exact same charges (the ones of the list that are actually valid) could be aimed at many Remain backing politicians/funders too, of course. It's a dirty world, folks, what else is new?!

 

Brexit is and always was (for many of us) about so much more than economics, short terms gains or losses, or the activities of a small group of rather mirky moneymen and their funds - dirty or clean.

That is something that is continuously overlooked, by far too many.

 

 

QUOTE: The Farage comment is redundant as his children have the claim to a German passport, since their mother is German.

 

Surely this must be fake news.

 

A national hero like Farage doing it with a GERMAN fraulein? They started the war, don't you know? Two wars actually. And German would be the official - and only - language of the EU, if the UK had not come to the rescue of those surrendrous Europeans.

Are you accusing Farage of treason? (I read that expression earlier on in this thread, (I think it was a brexitear that used it....).

 

[CanterbrigianBangkoker]

10 minutes ago, oldhippy said:

QUOTE: The Farage comment is redundant as his children have the claim to a German passport, since their mother is German.

 

Surely this must be fake news.

 

A national hero like Farage doing it with a GERMAN fraulein? They started the war, don't you know? Two wars actually. And German would be the official - and only - language of the EU, if the UK had not come to the rescue of those surrendrous Europeans.

Are you accusing Farage of treason? (I read that expression earlier on in this thread, (I think it was a brexitear that used it....).

 

 

???? Despite what some uninformed people might believe, not all those in favour of Brexit (very few I'd wager) are xenophobic, tweed-clad, full-bird colonels living in the Cotswolds. Farage is (to my mind) responsible for the referendum, and if we actually leave, then he was the architect of it in no small sense. Depending on your stance that makes him a bit of a legend or a complete fiend.

 

His predilection for a fraulein is his business, I couldn't care less who or what he's romantically involved with. I'd be a big hypocrite if I did, as I've been with my lovely Thai/Burmese missus for many years now.

 

 

[oldhippy]

4 hours ago, BritManToo said:

Google 'top land owners in the UK', the top 50 are almost all Dukes and lords.

 

Not difficult to do, grab all the land from those owning more than 50 acres, give every Brit citizen an acre with the right to live on it. Shoot those who protest.

So you will not nuke them? (a suggestion about Ireland you made before, when cornered).

 

[Forethat]

No new Brexit deal? So what!? A majority of Brits are trying to evade a future threat of a Federation where they can't hold ANYONE accountable.

 

Quote

"My friend, take a good advice. Take your children and your good lady and get out of Vulgaria"

 

[oldhippy]

But seriously CanterbrigianBangkoker what kind of people are these brexitears then?

I have tried to find reasonable answers to that question, but all I got was:

Let's jump from a high tower, while falling down we will grow wings - after all, we are British.

[CanterbrigianBangkoker]

21 minutes ago, oldhippy said:

But seriously CanterbrigianBangkoker what kind of people are these brexitears then?

I have tried to find reasonable answers to that question, but all I got was:

Let's jump from a high tower, while falling down we will grow wings - after all, we are British.

'what kind of people are these brexitears then' - well, the simple answer is - all kinds.

 

I think it would depend very much on where you hail from within the UK. But there were a few overriding factors that prompted the majority into voting to Leave I'd say. 

 

The rise of globalism, corporatism, federalism and superbureaucracy that the EU represents. Loss of sovereignty, loss of control and once important institutions becoming toothless; cultural disenfranchisement, overregulation, corruption and a feeling that we were becoming emasculated as a nation. The radical progression from the EEC to it's current incarnation - and no-one being consulted about any of it. Couple these with the extortionate bill we have to foot each year and the multitude of past, current and impending major issues that the EU has experienced and is facing, and suddenly being tied to this organisation has never seemed like such a bad idea. Then there's the Euro ????. To name just a few things.

 

'Let's jump from a high tower, while falling down we will grow wings' - that's your view.

Where we differ is many of us see it as leaping from the bottom of a dank dungeon to spread our wings on the world stage and breath the free air once more. Before you refute that statement , bear in mind there is no MORE evidence for your view becoming a reality than there is for mine.

 

 

[cmsally]

An off topic post removed.

[luckyluke]

2 hours ago, Laughing Gravy said:

You have a winner and loser but the democratic result must be respected and implement, as promised.

Fair enough that Remain lose, some accept, other not, however they can't do very much about it, except complain. 

 

Your parliament can however decide to do what the Leavers wished, they have the power. 

 

It seems however that they are not so far completely agree that just "leave" is the best thing for all the U.K. citizens. 

 

Something only people of the U.K. can fix. 

 

For us, bystanders, we can only notice what is happening, and have each or own opinion how things goes on actually in the U.K..

[candide]

1 hour ago, CanterbrigianBangkoker said:

'what kind of people are these brexitears then' - well, the simple answer is - all kinds.

 

I think it would depend very much on where you hail from within the UK. But there were a few overriding factors that prompted the majority into voting to Leave I'd say. 

 

The rise of globalism, corporatism, federalism and superbureaucracy that the EU represents. Loss of sovereignty, loss of control and once important institutions becoming toothless; cultural disenfranchisement, overregulation, corruption and a feeling that we were becoming emasculated as a nation. The radical progression from the EEC to it's current incarnation - and no-one being consulted about any of it. Couple these with the extortionate bill we have to foot each year and the multitude of past, current and impending major issues that the EU has experienced and is facing, and suddenly being tied to this organisation has never seemed like such a bad idea. Then there's the Euro ????. To name just a few things.

 

'Let's jump from a high tower, while falling down we will grow wings' - that's your view.

Where we differ is many of us see it as leaping from the bottom of a dank dungeon to spread our wings on the world stage and breath the free air once more. Before you refute that statement , bear in mind there is no MORE evidence for your view becoming a reality than there is for mine.

 

 

UK was on the edge of a cliff, but since then we have taken a huge leap forward! 

[stephenterry]

On 8/23/2019 at 12:09 PM, <deleted> dasterdly said:

If the EU had any sense it would have realised that a multitude of reforms were needed - but instead they decided the best idea was to become even more obstinate.....

As far as the UK is concerned, it's very much the government's responsibility to engage with the EU and challenge them to start a reform process - but with the UK holding a seat at the table and a veto vote - leaving doesn't achieve anything apart from cutting us off, or help to bring about any reform benefits. 

 

Why is it always assumed by leavers that the EU is to blame for anything and everything, when blame can and should also be attributed to the UK government?

[stephenterry]

21 hours ago, <deleted> dasterdly said:

And more than a few people still don't realise that these 'accusations' can be pointed at more than a few politicians.... - but seriously annoy those of us who know that 99% of politicians are corrupt - and they nearly all (?) support remain.  Question mark, as I suspect all support remain - but a few are worried about not being elected again if they make it obvious that they are ignoring their constituents vote.....

Source please, to verify your statistics. To be honest, I considered your posts to be sensible, even factual. This one is not. 

[stephenterry]

21 hours ago, Laughing Gravy said:

It was a binary referendum. I know this is a difficult concept to understand in many EU countries who have had their referendum result ignored. It is easier for me and many British people, even those that voted remain.

 

You have a winner and loser but the democratic result must be respected and implement, as promised. if not the whole political system is farcical, like the referendum results that were ignored.

 

 

Total rubbish. No UK referendum is binding, and democracy means that the government decides what course to take, not the electorate.

 

Whichever way you spin it, this is factual. And as a non-decision maker, I don't respect a no-deal as I have democratic right to oppose it, as (probably) do the majority of the population as at today not three years ago. 

[St George]

10 minutes ago, stephenterry said:

Total rubbish. No UK referendum is binding, and democracy means that the government decides what course to take, not the electorate.

 

Whichever way you spin it, this is factual. And as a non-decision maker, I don't respect a no-deal as I have democratic right to oppose it, as (probably) do the majority of the population as at today not three years ago. 

 

 

Indeed, as I have the democratic right to support the promise made by the PM at the time of the referendum.

 

I agree that is the right and duty of the government, via parliament, to honour that promise whichever way they deem fit. Whether that be No Deal, or with a deal.

[DannyCarlton]

1 hour ago, St George said:

I agree that is the right and duty of the government, via parliament, to honour that promise whichever way they deem fit. Whether that be No Deal, or with a deal.

Ultimately it's more than the right but the responsibility of government to make decisions that are in the best interests of the nation, whether that be to follow the advice of a referendum or not.

 

Shurely, even the most aredent of brexiteers cannot now believe that it's in the best interests of the nation to leave the EU, particularly without a sensible deal? "A deal beneficial to the Nation", as promised before the referendum, cannot now be an aspiration to even the most howling Brexiteer.

[CanterbrigianBangkoker]

On 8/24/2019 at 2:13 PM, DannyCarlton said:

Ultimately it's more than the right but the responsibility of government to make decisions that are in the best interests of the nation, whether that be to follow the advice of a referendum or not.

 

Shurely, even the most aredent of brexiteers cannot now believe that it's in the best interests of the nation to leave the EU, particularly without a sensible deal? "A deal beneficial to the Nation", as promised before the referendum, cannot now be an aspiration to even the most howling Brexiteer.

 

As Theresa May and then Boris in his turn said time and time again, 'no deal is better than a bad deal'. The WA is a bad, bad deal for the UK, it would humble us in front of our European neighbours, removing all our input and control whilst keeping us part of their customs, single market and judicial systems, oh and taking back over GBP: 30b in the process  - making us, in effect - no more than a vassal state.

 

That would be a simply unacceptable first in the long and proud history of the country and its people. Sure, some soft and misguided folks will be okay with it, but I imagine the majority will not - on both sides.

It may simply become a case of sh*t or get off the pot, and that the accumulating public ennui surrounding Brexit is enough to force through a WA with the concession of a limited/finite or partial backstop (this would still be a very poor deal for the UK). If that does happen I doubt we'd ever leave in anything but name only. If after all the rhetoric, the recycled 'strong stands' being made by May and Boris, after all their 'promises to the public', the numerous mandates for Brexit delivered to parliament and the 42 months of subterfuge and indecision that preceded it, if after all this - a minorly amended version of May's inital deal is to be the final terms of our leaving and hence the outcome of the largest democratic exercise in our history, it would simply be.... appalling. It would also spell end of the UK as a serious country IMO.

 

The EU want our 30+ billion quid, we want a proper free trade agreement with them. It seems the simplest and most advantageous deal FOR BOTH SIDES would be to do a trade of those two items. We pay them their compensation bill in exchange for a full FTA that would start immediately on the 1st November 2019. Here's to hoping anyway, if that is not acceptable to the EU, then we really must leave, not blink. Leave without a deal and wait for the phone to ring. Some people will lose their jobs within the UK and abroad in Europe, and the economies of the UK and our largest trading partners across the channel will suffer some unrest and short-term instability, but it would seem to me, Mrs. May and other many other disingenuous politicians (at least rhetorically) that if the EU are intent on punishing the UK and don't go for a sensible FTA, then the hallowed line of 'no deal is better than a bad one' should be practised and not simply preached.

 

 

[beautifulthailand99]

On 8/23/2019 at 2:24 PM, candide said:

UK was on the edge of a cliff, but since then we have taken a huge leap forward! 

Time to lighten the mood a little with the Great Billy Bragg - new and updated.

 

 

[Thongkorn]

On 8/23/2019 at 10:51 AM, oldhippy said:

But seriously CanterbrigianBangkoker what kind of people are these brexitears then?

I have tried to find reasonable answers to that question, but all I got was:

Let's jump from a high tower, while falling down we will grow wings - after all, we are British.

No lets get out of a quango, Whos members cannot be sacked or reprimanded, Who go in a room in secret and make Decisions for 500 million people, Thats a Dictatorship to me not an Economical agrement as what Britan joined, 

[DannyCarlton]

10 hours ago, CanterbrigianBangkoker said:

if the EU are intent on punishing the UK and don't go for a sensible FTA, then the hallowed line of 'no deal is better than a bad one' should be practised and not simply preached.

There are only a small minority of people in the UK that are so blinkered that they still can't see that no deal will be a complete disaster for the UK. Sad to see that Dominic Cummings as done a real job on you.

The EU would be more than happy to have a proper FTA and Customs union with them. This would by nature involve freedom of movemrnt and accepting the ECJ. Leave in name only. make your mind up what you want, cherry picking was never on the table and never could be. You really are in cloud cuckoo land.

[candide]

2 hours ago, Thongkorn said:

No lets get out of a quango, Whos members cannot be sacked or reprimanded, Who go in a room in secret and make Decisions for 500 million people, Thats a Dictatorship to me not an Economical agrement as what Britan joined, 

It looks pale compared to a feudal system of unelected upper house and head of State, right?

[CanterbrigianBangkoker]

8 hours ago, DannyCarlton said:

There are only a small minority of people in the UK that are so blinkered that they still can't see that no deal will be a complete disaster for the UK. Sad to see that Dominic Cummings as done a real job on you.

The EU would be more than happy to have a proper FTA and Customs union with them. This would by nature involve freedom of movemrnt and accepting the ECJ. Leave in name only. make your mind up what you want, cherry picking was never on the table and never could be. You really are in cloud cuckoo land.

Cloud cuckoo land huh!? Accoridng to who? You!? ???? please...give me a break. It's not a case of cherry-picking either, it's called negotiation and mitigation. If the EU wants their cash, which they certainly do, they should negotiate a comprehensive FTA that will be advantageous for both sides. If they don't we should leave without a deal and go onto WTO terms, and as I said.....await the overtures of the EU, who require access to our markets as much as they require our NET contribution to their budget. 

 

'There are only a small minority of people in the UK that are so blinkered that they still can't see that no deal will be a complete disaster for the UK' - again, according to you, how do you know that it will be 'a disaster' exactly? Project Fear has clearly 'done a real job on you' . You're simply going on other people's assumptions and forecasts, you have no more evidence to prove your theory is correct than I do when I say that it could be the best decision the UK ever makes.

 

FYI - I'm not a fan of Mr.Cummings, I make my own mind up about most issues thank you very much, whereas it would seem you clearly listen to the status-quo promoting vested interests like the variety of duplicitous MPs and the Remain funding / EU funded instituions such as the CBI and their so called 'experts'. Wrong about everything thus far (but never admit it) yet feel they should be taken seriously? Their membership is made up of associations of land-owners and business interests represented by and vested in the EU. These people are acolytes, simples as that. And their track record is terrible. That is not to say that there won't be some difficult short term disruption ahead, I never said anything to the contrary - but a DISATSER!? No, I think not, and neither do many impartial businessesmen, you know - those who understand the nature of markets and businesses' bottom lines.

 

'EU would be more than happy to have a proper FTA and Customs union with them. This would by nature involve freedom of movemrnt and accepting the ECJ. Leave in name only.' - The WA is a precursor to an FTA, but I believe, as many others do that being tied into the CU and effectively the SM too via a backstop would mean we never leave, as you say - 'we'd leave in name only'. Who want's a free-trade agreement with the EU if we're then unable to make FTAs with the rest of the world. You know - those markets that are growing, not stagnating or shrinking like the protectionist markets of the EU. It would be absurd and wholly unacceptable. Continuing to take commands from the ECJ, having it overrule our own courts, again - unacceptable. You might be fine with the UK becoming a real vassal state, maybe subjugation is your thing? I'm certainly not, and I think you'll find the majority of the public aren't either, polls seem to indicate it. This argument is all the more undemocratic and unsavoury when you consider that the express intention very clearly indicated by the majority back in 2016 was to enact the opposite! We should simply leave, with an FTA if possible, or without a deal if the EU insist. 

[CanterbrigianBangkoker]

7 hours ago, candide said:

It looks pale compared to a feudal system of unelected upper house and head of State, right?

You're forgetting the lower house (the one that makes all the important decisions, creates 100% of legislature and is elected to office directly by the constituents of the country), and when you say 'head of state' you mean the Queen? The symbolic, constitutional monarch who has very limited political power and no legislative ability whatever? Much like her counterparts in Netherlands, Sweden, Denmark, Norway or Belgium? Poor argument.

 

I'm not for the HoL, a second house of representatives could be an idea that has come of age, but nevertheless our centuries old Westminster system (adopted by nearly all the commonwealth nations including some of the freest, most prosperous and most powerful nations on earth) simply beats the hell out of a bunch of unelected faceless bureaucrats, headed and effectively governed by Franco-German commisioners and their vested business interests - sending down legislature to be ammended ratified by a toothless parliament with qualified majority voting whereby tiny nation states have as much or more say than we do within said parliament, whilst contributing a fraction of our budgetry contribution!

 

Naaah, no thanks. If you are a fan of supra-national federations that believe themselves to be one nation with one flag, but nevertheless decline to consult with and have scant regard for their constituents or their wishes and believe soveriegn nations to be a relic of a bygone age - then that's fine - remain part of the EU and see where it gets you. The UK, however, eschewed this idea in 2016 with our referendum result, one that was mandated twice more since. We must get out.