Confused about Elite Visa.

[elviajero]

5 hours ago, jacko45k said:

But you aren't using the Visa, just the ensuing permit to stay. 

If the policy is to give one-year Permits for every entry, I do not see how this can be restricted. Everything you say could be applied to an O-A, and O-X.

If you have a stay permit based on marriage or work and they end your stay permit ends.

 

I disagree. O-A’s are issued based on age so that never changes. If you have an O-X they can take away the visa/permit if you don’t keep up the insurance or minimum bank balance. And they can now — potentially— take away the stay permit if you’ve extended your stay based on retirement and and don’t keep the minimum bank balance.

 

As I wrote. The visa/stay permit are a benefit of TE membership.

[MsBom]

I'll give my 2 cents on the situation:

As some may know, my bf's Elite visa was expiring end of May 2019. We were considering doing a 1mb 20 years extension. Our situation changed as we now plan to go live in Europe early next year. We went to CW's yearly extensions counter and they all confirmed that he was entitled to 1 year extension if he came back within the visa expiry date. So he did just that, left and came back to HK on the same day 5 days before his visa expired. He was indeed given 1 year permit. The IO (older man in his 50s) was surprised about it, but said that it was the rules so he gave him the extension. 2 weeks ago, I sent my messenger to do his 90 report and it was done with no issues, even writing PE on his report page.

All the immigration warned us about was to file for a TM30 once he came back and to not forget that as they were taking it more seriously.

I don't know if the rules will change and if Elite will try to prevent this bonus year, but for now it worked.


Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect

[ukrules]

11 hours ago, elviajero said:

How would immigration know, or why would they check that you were still member?

You don't get it. I am stamped in for 1 year, they know that both my visa and membership are over because I told them when they asked what I'm going to do next. They know me down there as I've been going there for many years, well before I got this current 5 year visa.

 

The guy (immigration officer) suggested that I should perhaps get a retirement visa when this extension of stay runs out and I explained that I'm not yet 50 so I will need to buy one more 5 year visa. He also gave me a friendly reminder that if I need to leave the country before my extra free year runs out that I should not forget to get a re-entry permit before I go or I will find myself on a 30 day visa exampt stamp when I return!!!

 

This is no oversight - it's how the system works - they all know exactly what's going on.

 

I'm getting my extra year in the same way that you can do with some other visas that allow one year entrance - you can get another year if you come into the country towards the end of the visa.

 

You are literally making this up, I suggest you stop. Membership has some benefits which stop at the end of the membership. Getting a new visa is one of those benefits, so are the free limo rides and fast track, etc.

 

Stop misleading people.

 

 

Edited September 1, 2019 by ukrules

[ukrules]

2 hours ago, MsBom said:

I don't know if the rules will change and if Elite will try to prevent this bonus year, but for now it worked.

No surprise there, it works the way it was intended, that other guy is spreading rumours.

 

 

[elviajero]

6 hours ago, ukrules said:

You don't get it. I am stamped in for 1 year, they know that both my visa and membership are over because I told them when they asked what I'm going to do next. They know me down there as I've been going there for many years, well before I got this current 5 year visa.

 

The guy (immigration officer) suggested that I should perhaps get a retirement visa when this extension of stay runs out and I explained that I'm not yet 50 so I will need to buy one more 5 year visa. He also gave me a friendly reminder that if I need to leave the country before my extra free year runs out that I should not forget to get a re-entry permit before I go or I will find myself on a 30 day visa exampt stamp when I return!!!

 

This is no oversight - it's how the system works - they all know exactly what's going on.

 

I'm getting my extra year in the same way that you can do with some other visas that allow one year entrance - you can get another year if you come into the country towards the end of the visa.

 

You are literally making this up, I suggest you stop. Membership has some benefits which stop at the end of the membership. Getting a new visa is one of those benefits, so are the free limo rides and fast track, etc.

 

Stop misleading people.

Take your head out of the sand and try reading what I’ve written.

 

I know how it works and that immigration and TE know what’s going on. But getting a 6 year stay from a 5 year membership is not what the people setting up the scheme were intending. It’s a loophole that I made people aware of when the scheme started. Only time will tell whether they make moves to close the loophole.

 

The PE visa is not like other visas because it is linked to membership of TE. You buy membership to TE which gets you a visa, you do not buy a visa that gives you membership. All permission to stay is granted for specific reasons. Permission to stay for a PE visa is based on membership to TE.

 

I’m not misleading anyone, I’m sure most people can read and understand basic facts.

[ukrules]

5 hours ago, elviajero said:

But getting a 6 year stay from a 5 year membership is not what the people setting up the scheme were intending.

It doesn't matter what they were 'intending', this is the way it turned out.

 

I've got my extra year for free and nobody at immigration gives a f***.

Edited September 1, 2019 by ukrules

[jacko45k]

17 hours ago, elviajero said:

I disagree. O-A’s are issued based on age so that never changes.

Also based on financial qualification which may not persist, to suggest your permit to stay could be cancelled if you no longer qualify is a frightening scenario. If a long term permit to stay is stamped into your passport, it needs to be set clear under what circumstances it may be cancelled, or become invalid. Do those entering on PE get such a stamp?

This is a worrying rule you have created.... those currently on a retirement extension issued post March 2019 effectively can be immediately on overstay if they spend their 800/400k in the bank!

[ukrules]

2 minutes ago, jacko45k said:

Also based on financial qualification which may not persist, to suggest your permit to stay could be cancelled if you no longer qualify is a frightening scenario. If a long term permit to stay is stamped into your passport, it needs to be set clear under what circumstances it may be cancelled, or become invalid. Do those entering on PE get such a stamp?

This is a worrying rule you have created.... those currently on a retirement extension issued post March 2019 effectively can be immediately on overstay if they spend their 800/400k in the bank!

I got an official 1 year stamp in my passport at the airport.

 

This is all that matters, this guy is literally making it up as he goes along. Ignore him.

[elviajero]

9 hours ago, ukrules said:

It doesn't matter what they were 'intending', this is the way it turned out.

 

I've got my extra year for free and nobody at immigration gives a f***.

You got you “extra year for free” because at the time the visa was valid and presumably you were still a member at the time. 

 

As I’ve pointed out, we are now in uncharted water and will have to wait and see what happens in the future. 

[elviajero]

7 hours ago, jacko45k said:

Also based on financial qualification which may not persist, to suggest your permit to stay could be cancelled if you no longer qualify is a frightening scenario. If a long term permit to stay is stamped into your passport, it needs to be set clear under what circumstances it may be cancelled, or become invalid. Do those entering on PE get such a stamp?

This is a worrying rule you have created.... those currently on a retirement extension issued post March 2019 effectively can be immediately on overstay if they spend their 800/400k in the bank!

There is no requirement for the O-A funds to be maintained. However, if they end up introducing compulsory insurance, IMO, the visa/permit could be at risk if the insurance isn’t maintained.

 

As it stands PE holders should get away with the extra time. My concern, based on conversations with TE 5 years ago and what I’m hearing now, is that IF too many members do not renew their membership, or wait a year before renewing, TE will make moves to close the loophole.

 

It doesn’t matter whether the stay permit (stamp) in your passport is from entry with a visa or a subsequent extension of that stay; IF the reason changes for issuing the permission to stay or the conditions (money in bank etc.) change the visa or stay permit can be revoked. That has always been the case for all visas/permits.

[elviajero]

7 hours ago, ukrules said:

I got an official 1 year stamp in my passport at the airport.

 

This is all that matters, this guy is literally making it up as he goes along. Ignore him.

This guy is not making anything up. You are  in denial of the possibility that things might change. I’d rather be aware of the possibility than bury my head in the sand.

 

You are acting exactly the same as serial tourists who once could come and go as they wanted, but are now whinging because of the f***’s now being given by the authorities who decided to stop it,

[ukrules]

1 hour ago, elviajero said:

You got you “extra year for free” because at the time the visa was valid and presumably you were still a member at the time. 

 

As I’ve pointed out, we are now in uncharted water and will have to wait and see what happens in the future. 

Yes, I'll be sure to come back and let you know once the extra year is finished.

[JohnnyBKK]

6 hours ago, elviajero said:

There is no requirement for the O-A funds to be maintained. However, if they end up introducing compulsory insurance, IMO, the visa/permit could be at risk if the insurance isn’t maintained.

 

As it stands PE holders should get away with the extra time. My concern, based on conversations with TE 5 years ago and what I’m hearing now, is that IF too many members do not renew their membership, or wait a year before renewing, TE will make moves to close the loophole.

 

It doesn’t matter whether the stay permit (stamp) in your passport is from entry with a visa or a subsequent extension of that stay; IF the reason changes for issuing the permission to stay or the conditions (money in bank etc.) change the visa or stay permit can be revoked. That has always been the case for all visas/permits.

IF they start treating elite tourists like this they might simply go away. This is not a loophole, it's how visas work. The sticker allows you to enter the country for 5 years and stay up to 1 year each time, if you come on the last day it still works, it's normal.

[elviajero]

19 minutes ago, JohnnyBKK said:

IF they start treating elite tourists like this they might simply go away. This is not a loophole, it's how visas work. The sticker allows you to enter the country for 5 years and stay up to 1 year each time, if you come on the last day it still works, it's normal.

They would be EX-members.

 

It is a loophole as the visa is meant for use by members only. You buy membership that provides a visa, not a visa that provides membership.

 

If they can change the rules so a retiree must maintain a minimum balance or have their extension cancelled — EX-members should be concerned about their stay permits.

 

In my experience people look at the visa system how they want it to be rather than the reality of how it actually is.

 

Watch this space.

[Caldera]

1 hour ago, elviajero said:

In my experience people look at the visa system how they want it to be rather than the reality of how it actually is.

Not all of us are naturally born sycophants who, when Thai immigration make nonsensical changes or substantial about-turns, go out of their way to tell people that these honest and hard-working IOs are just plugging the loopholes (to make Thailand a safer and happier place, no doubt) and that those affected just need to get on with it and stop whinging.

 

I fail to see how this is a "loophole" they didn't know about full well when they designed those programs. Do they really not even have one member of staff who has a functioning brain? Even you saw that coming, after all. If they had wanted it any other way, they should have designed or priced it differently, easy.

[elviajero]

27 minutes ago, Caldera said:

Not all of us are naturally born sycophants who, when Thai immigration make nonsensical changes or substantial about-turns, go out of their way to tell people that these honest and hard-working IOs are just plugging the loopholes (to make Thailand a safer and happier place, no doubt) and that those affected just need to get on with it and stop whinging.

You can’t ever debate without pathetic insults.

 

Some of us can see both sides of the argument and are pragmatic realists.

 

Quote

I fail to see how this is a "loophole" they didn't know about full well when they designed those programs. Do they really not even have one member of staff who has a functioning brain? Even you saw that coming, after all. If they had wanted it any other way, they should have designed or priced it differently, easy.

Of course it’s a loophole.

 

They are using an old visa system to fit their ‘new’ scheme. The 5 year membership doesn’t fit with the current visa system that gives the last date the visa can be used rather than the last date you can stay.

Edited September 2, 2019 by elviajero

[jackdd]

47 minutes ago, elviajero said:

Of course it’s a loophole.

 

They are using an old visa system to fit their ‘new’ scheme. The 5 year membership doesn’t fit with the current visa system that gives the last date the visa can be used rather than the last date you can stay.

They didn't use the rules from the current visa system, they made up their own rules.

They specifically wrote that every time a person with a valid membership enters Thailand, this person is entitled to a one year permission of stay. They could very well have written: One year permission per time, but not longer than the validity of the visa (or membership) itself. But for some reason they didn't do it.

 

Actually they also wrote that a person with an active membership is entitled to get a 5 year visa an unlimited number of times, so following this rule it should be possible to get a new 5 year visa shortly before the first 5 year visa expires, giving you nearly 11 years instead of 5. To me it looks like the persons who wrote this down were just not the smartest.

Edited September 2, 2019 by jackdd

[jacko45k]

9 hours ago, elviajero said:

They are using an old visa system to fit their ‘new’ scheme. The 5 year membership doesn’t fit with the current visa system that gives the last date the visa can be used rather than the last date you can stay

And again this is how an O-A or O-X visa works too. 

Using it while still valid, entitles one to a one year Permit to Stay.

 

The PE visa is valid for 5 years and allows the member to stay in the country for 12 months per entry and able to extend beyond 12 months by visiting immigration office for a stay extension. 

 

How long an Extension would immigration give a PE Visa holder if he went there in the last week his membership was valid?

[elviajero]

8 hours ago, jackdd said:

They didn't use the rules from the current visa system, they made up their own rules.

They specifically wrote that every time a person with a valid membership enters Thailand, this person is entitled to a one year permission of stay. They could very well have written: One year permission per time, but not longer than the validity of the visa (or membership) itself. But for some reason they didn't do it.

 

Actually they also wrote that a person with an active membership is entitled to get a 5 year visa an unlimited number of times, so following this rule it should be possible to get a new 5 year visa shortly before the first 5 year visa expires, giving you nearly 11 years instead of 5. To me it looks like the persons who wrote this down were just not the smartest.

They could have done lots of things, but they didn’t, and that’s why a loophole exists. You pay for 5 year membership but get the potential of a 6 year stay.

 

That ‘benefit’ is not used in marketing anywhere; why is that? It would be a great selling point.

 

The question is what, if anything, they will do about it in the future now that the first 5 years of the scheme is up.

[jackdd]

12 minutes ago, elviajero said:

They could have done lots of things, but they didn’t, and that’s why a loophole exists. You pay for 5 year membership but get the potential of a 6 year stay.

 

That ‘benefit’ is not used in marketing anywhere; why is that? It would be a great selling point.

 

The question is what, if anything, they will do about it in the future now that the first 5 years of the scheme is up.

The elite visa works in the same way as any other multiple entry visa which Thailand issues, the same system which Thailand uses since many years. The people who wrote the elite visa rules knew how Thai multiple entry visas work, and that people can use them to stay longer in Thailand than the validity of the visa. They had the option to apply any additional rules to it, but they didn't. This is in no way a loophole.

There are only two possible options as to why the rules like this:

1) The persons who wrote the elite visa rules are incompetent, because they didn't understand how multiple entry visas work

2) The elite visa is intended to work in such a way

 

Option 1) would mean losing face for the persons involved, so any Thai person would agree that it is option 2) if they are presented these options.

 

 

 

 

[elviajero]

11 minutes ago, jackdd said:

The elite visa works in the same way as any other multiple entry visa which Thailand issues, the same system which Thailand uses since many years.

I know.

 

Quote

The people who wrote the elite visa rules knew how Thai multiple entry visas work, and that people can use them to stay longer in Thailand than the validity of the visa.

I know.

 

Quote

They had the option to apply any additional rules to it, but they didn't. This is in no way a loophole.

I know. And it’s because they didn’t that they created a situation that allows someone to stay 6 years having paid for 5 year membership. A loophole!

 

loophole

1. an ambiguity or inadequacy in the law or a set of rules.

 

Again, it’s a great selling point. Why didn’t/don’t they use it?

a) Because it’s not how they want people to use the scheme.

b) Other.

 

Quote

There are only two possible options as to why the rules like this:

1) The persons who wrote the elite visa rules are incompetent, because they didn't understand how multiple entry visas work

2) The elite visa is intended to work in such a way

3) They had to fit an existing visa system within a new membership scheme.

 

Edited September 3, 2019 by elviajero

[jackdd]

39 minutes ago, elviajero said:

Again, it’s a great selling point. Why didn’t/don’t they use it?

a) Because it’s not how they want people to use the scheme.

b) Other.

Because 500k THB every 5 years means more profit than 500k every 6 years.

 

39 minutes ago, elviajero said:

3) They had to fit an existing visa system within a new membership scheme.

We can rule this one out, because in the official elite visa rules ( http://web.krisdika.go.th/data/law/law2/%a402/%a402-2e-2556-a0005.htm ) the first section states thas it doesn't have to comply with the immigration act, so they could set the rules however they wanted. They could have written: Upon entry the person will be permitted to stay until the expiry date of the visa.

Edited September 3, 2019 by jackdd

[ICELANDMAN]

I didn't understand anything if you receive 5 + 1 -1 = 5 years visa elite, I asked for informations with the company that sells the elite visa and I realized that not even the one who answered my questions knew what they were selling, the only one what I realized is that it was a loss of money to make you feel VIP if you are poor with the result that I would be even poorer afterwards but they will make you feel more VIP.

[elviajero]

23 minutes ago, jackdd said:

1 hour ago, elviajero said:

Again, it’s a great selling point. Why didn’t/don’t they use it?

a) Because it’s not how they want people to use the scheme.

b) Other.

Because 500k THB every 5 years means more profit than 500k every 6 years.

Exactly!

 

And my underlying point is that if TE members — in significant number — take advantage of the “free year” there is every chance the loophole will get shut.

Edited September 3, 2019 by elviajero

[jackdd]

3 minutes ago, elviajero said:

Exactly!

 

And my underlying point is that if TE members — in significant number — take advantage of the “free year” there is every chance the loophole will get shut.

You forget that there are two groups of people involved:

- The people who wrote the rules, they did write them in their current way because they intended them to be like this, this is not a loophole

- Thailand Elite, trying to earn as much money as possible, so they tell people they have to buy a new membership after 5 years.

[elviajero]

45 minutes ago, jackdd said:

1 hour ago, elviajero said:

3) They had to fit an existing visa system within a new membership scheme.

We can rule this one out, because in the official elite visa rules ( http://web.krisdika.go.th/data/law/law2/%a402/%a402-2e-2556-a0005.htm ) the first section states thas it doesn't have to comply with the immigration act, so they could set the rules however they wanted. They could have written: Upon entry the person will be permitted to stay until the expiry date of the visa.

No it doesn’t. Article 1 says that anything specifically within articles 2, 3 and 4 of the announcement takes precedent over the immigration act.
 
Article 2 says members can have a 5 year visa that has unlimited use during membership of the scheme.

 

That implies if membership expires before the visa expires you can’t use the visa.
 
Article 3 says that the IO should check eligibility on entry and can authorise a 1 year stay.

Article 4 says you can apply for a 1 year extension of stay.

 

There’s nothing in the announcement we don’t already know; and these simple ‘rules’ create that loophole of 6 years for the price of 5 if you enter before membership AND the visa expire.

[jackdd]

6 minutes ago, elviajero said:

No it doesn’t. Article 1 says that anything specifically within articles 2, 3 and 4 of the announcement takes precedent over the immigration act.

You contradict yourself. Yes, they could have written in these rules whatever they wanted, also a limitation regarding the one year permit to stay, they didn't have to fit any existing visa scheme, because these rules are even above the immigration act.

 

6 minutes ago, elviajero said:

Article 2 says members can have a 5 year visa that has unlimited use during membership of the scheme.

 

That implies if membership expires before the visa expires you can’t use the visa.

Yes, i wrote this already on page 1.

 

6 minutes ago, elviajero said:

There’s nothing in the announcement we don’t already know; and these simple ‘rules’ create that loophole of 6 years for the price of 5 if you enter before membership AND the visa expire.

So you are saying that the people who wrote these rules were incompetent, they didn't understand that multiple entry visas can be used in such a way, which led to them leaving this loophole?

Edited September 3, 2019 by jackdd

[jacko45k]

2 hours ago, jackdd said:

They could have written: Upon entry the person will be permitted to stay until the expiry date of the visa.

Isn't one year the maximum by law?

[jackdd]

2 minutes ago, jacko45k said:

Isn't one year the maximum by law?

In most cases yes (*), but immigration act section 17 allows them to make special rules, and to effectively overrule nearly everything in the law, they used this section to create the elite visa (source:  http://web.krisdika.go.th/data/comment/comment1/2554/c1_0123_2554.htm ), so they could define the rules in any way they wanted. If they wanted they could also have exempted them from 90 days reporting or TM30.

 

*The SMART visa can also be issued for multiple years.

[elviajero]

1 hour ago, jackdd said:

1 hour ago, elviajero said:

No it doesn’t. Article 1 says that anything specifically within articles 2, 3 and 4 of the announcement takes precedent over the immigration act.

You contradict yourself. Yes, they could have written in these rules whatever they wanted, also a limitation regarding the one year permit to stay, they didn't have to fit any existing visa scheme, because these rules are even above the immigration act.

I am saying that they have used the current visa system without changing it. Any changes are limited to anything in the articles of the announcement; which are none.

 

1 hour ago, jackdd said:

1 hour ago, elviajero said:

There’s nothing in the announcement we don’t already know; and these simple ‘rules’ create that loophole of 6 years for the price of 5 if you enter before membership AND the visa expire.

So you are saying that the people who wrote these rules were incompetent, they didn't understand that multiple entry visas can be used in such a way, which led to them leaving this loophole?

No. The MoI and Cabinet set out the rules which don't deviate from the immigration act as far as I can see.

 

You have proven my point.