Confused about Elite Visa.

[Captain Monday]

 If this is all correct airport IO should  issue Permitted to Stay stamp limited until visa end date. TE should tell members in advance they need to reapply in advance to avoid this gap.  City and Provincial  Immigration Offices should not be issuing reentry permits then. It would be outrageous for Elites to be charged with illegal entry or overstay when the did was provide valid documents and were thus admitted by competent officials at point of entry. Would TE not be causing Immigration Officials to lose face by in effect saying those officials issued entry permits and reentry permits in error?

 

 

Edited September 20, 2019 by Captain Monday

[Thaidream]

On 9/1/2019 at 3:34 AM, elviajero said:

here are plenty of PE visa holders that have been given permits to stay beyond the expiry of the visa, but TE will presumably be expecting those members to renew membership at the end of the 5 years.

 

At the end of the day the visa is meant for TE members. Your money buys membership and the visa is a benefit of that membership, like the golf, limos etc are. You wouldn’t be allowed to ride in a limo after the membership expires, so logically neither should you be able to use the visa.

Edited September 1 by elviajero

What you say makes sense simply because the Elite Visa is a membereship contract.  I don't have one- but from what I understand that  prior to the end of the 5th year, a member can get the 6th year by leaving the country.  I don't believe there is anything in the written contract that specifically states the extension portion ends when the membership ends.

 

Like the O-A Visa- which is good for one year- if one leaves the countryy prior to the ending Visa date- one gets another year stamp upon entry. The Visa has ended but not the extension. To me, it is perfectly logical to expect a 5 year Elite Visa to have the same provision and it appears perfectly logical to Immigration since people are getting the added year .

 

However, in reality the Elite Visa is not very Elite- it's simply a high priced  Tourist Visa and the Company who runds it is interested in only getting a renew and another

500K/

 

IMO- it would be very bad publicity for the Company handling this membership to go to Immigration and indicate their members are 'breaking the law'.  If they don't want this to continue- they need to specifically spell out in their contract- the the Extensions of stay end when the membership ends.  I have a feeling- someone will challenge this in the Administrative Court if Elite  places hardball on this issue.

[elviajero]

On 9/20/2019 at 11:35 AM, Thaidream said:

What you say makes sense simply because the Elite Visa is a membereship contract.  I don't have one- but from what I understand that  prior to the end of the 5th year, a member can get the 6th year by leaving the country.  I don't believe there is anything in the written contract that specifically states the extension portion ends when the membership ends.

IMO the contract ends when the membership ends and any benefits - the visa being one - end too.

 

On 9/20/2019 at 11:35 AM, Thaidream said:

Like the O-A Visa- which is good for one year- if one leaves the countryy prior to the ending Visa date- one gets another year stamp upon entry. The Visa has ended but not the extension. To me, it is perfectly logical to expect a 5 year Elite Visa to have the same provision and it appears perfectly logical to Immigration since people are getting the added year .

The O-A is a false comparison. We are talking about permission to stay. The most obvious comparison is a stay permit issued based on marriage. When the marriage ends the permit to stay ends, and it's up to the visa holder to leave or arrange a new stay permit. The same principle applies to a permit issued to a TE member who's membership ends.

 

On 9/20/2019 at 11:35 AM, Thaidream said:

IMO- it would be very bad publicity for the Company handling this membership to go to Immigration and indicate their members are 'breaking the law'.  If they don't want this to continue- they need to specifically spell out in their contract- the the Extensions of stay end when the membership ends.  I have a feeling- someone will challenge this in the Administrative Court if Elite  places hardball on this issue.

TE have dealt with this issue badly. I had several conversations with them 5 years ago about this 'loophole' and they've left it till now to formally confirm their position.

 

At the end of the day they have marketed a 5 year visa - meaning the member can stay in the country for 5 years. No one was sold a 5 year membership with the promise of a 6 year stay. It was always our hope that they would allow a 6th year to ride, but it doesn't look like that will happen long term.

 

Now that TE are confirming in the renew letter that you cannot stay once membership ends, that has the loophole closed, and anyone that ignores that risks all the penalties that come with staying without permission and overstaying.

[jacko45k]

12 hours ago, elviajero said:

IMO the contract ends when the membership ends and any benefits - the visa being one - end too.

It doesn't matter, the permission to Stay still has validity. 

[elviajero]

6 hours ago, jacko45k said:

It doesn't matter, the permission to Stay still has validity. 

They are writing to members before membership ends telling them their visa and permit expire if they don't renew.

 

Although a permit is valid until cancelled, it is possible that immigration could cancel a permit retrospectively from when the membership ends, and not when discovered, which could create an overstay/fine/ban. The rules are the same for any stay permit regardless of the visa status.

 

IMO this renewal notification by TE also throws up possible problems if an ex-member stays an extra year and then applies again at the end of year 6.

 

The renewal letter changes everything.

TE Renewal.pdf

[Captain Monday]

On 9/21/2019 at 3:51 AM, elviajero said:

IMO the contract ends when the membership ends and any benefits - the visa being one - end too.

 

The O-A is a false comparison. We are talking about permission to stay. The most obvious comparison is a stay permit issued based on marriage. When the marriage ends the permit to stay ends, and it's up to the visa holder to leave or arrange a new stay permit. The same principle applies to a permit issued to a TE member who's membership ends.

 

TE have dealt with this issue badly. I had several conversations with them 5 years ago about this 'loophole' and they've left it till now to formally confirm their position.

 

At the end of the day they have marketed a 5 year visa - meaning the member can stay in the country for 5 years. No one was sold a 5 year membership with the promise of a 6 year stay. It was always our hope that they would allow a 6th year to ride, but it doesn't look like that will happen long term.

 

Now that TE are confirming in the renew letter that you cannot stay once membership ends, that has the loophole closed, and anyone that ignores that risks all the penalties that come with staying without permission and overstaying.

TE have confirmed "their position" containing some kind of passive threat in uncharacteristically bad English, what is Immigration to do about it? What is punishment to the former Elite who did not surrender themselves to immigration with 500,000 baht in hand on the last day of Membership? Illegal entry and overstay grave crimes under Thai law. What about the rouge officers?  Are they to be assigned to inactive posts for the hundreds or even thousands of 1 year permits to stay in the last year given to members? What about the illegal reentry permits? I don't imagine the numbers are small.  One point elviajero you are getting wrong is TE never marketed a 5 year Visa. The offered a 5 year multiple entry visa with 1 year permit to stay given each entry. This cannot be disputed.

 

 

Edited September 22, 2019 by Captain Monday

[jacko45k]

16 hours ago, elviajero said:

They are writing to members before membership ends telling them their visa and permit expire if they don't renew.

The Permit is not expiring, there is a date stamped there which has yet to be exceeded. They are trying to hang the sword of Damocles over their members. They claim the permission to stay is cancelled, but by whom. They do not have that authority. They did not issue it.

Edited September 22, 2019 by jacko45k

[elviajero]

10 hours ago, jacko45k said:

The Permit is not expiring, there is a date stamped there which has yet to be exceeded. They are trying to hang the sword of Damocles over their members. They claim the permission to stay is cancelled, but by whom. They do not have that authority. They did not issue it.

It is naive to take the stance you are. Immigration can cancel the permit and will do if instructed by TE; especially now they’ve given written notice.

 

TE sell membership that allows someone to stay in the country for 5 years, not 6. Nothing in any of the marketing suggests otherwise. 

 

As I’ve said, if you lose your job or get divorced it is up to you to leave or change the reason for your stay; exactly the same principle applies to TE EX-members.

[ukrules]

32 minutes ago, elviajero said:

It is naive to take the stance you are. Immigration can cancel the permit and will do if instructed by TE; especially now they’ve given written notice.

 

TE sell membership that allows someone to stay in the country for 5 years, not 6. Nothing in any of the marketing suggests otherwise. 

 

As I’ve said, if you lose your job or get divorced it is up to you to leave or change the reason for your stay; exactly the same principle applies to TE EX-members.

Immigration don't take instructions from TE, they apply the law to whatever they do. Membership of TE is irrelevant, if you have a valid visa in your passport you get the stamp that's listed in the regulations and that's a 1 year entry stamp.

 

The TE marketing doesn't matter, it's irrelevant, only the law matters.

 

If immigration are handing out 1 year stamps just before a visa ends (and they are) that's because the law dictates that they have to do this - there is no other option for them. I suspect that they don't like that they have to do it but what can they do about it ....nothing.

 

Unless they change the law / regulation / ministerial order that forces them to grant 1 year stays on every entrance then nothing will change.

 

This will affect such a small number of people that I doubt anyone in government will spend more than a few minutes on it - it's a non issue.

 

 

[elviajero]

44 minutes ago, ukrules said:

Immigration don't take instructions from TE, they apply the law to whatever they do. Membership of TE is irrelevant, if you have a valid visa in your passport you get the stamp that's listed in the regulations and that's a 1 year entry stamp.

 

The TE marketing doesn't matter, it's irrelevant, only the law matters.

 

If immigration are handing out 1 year stamps just before a visa ends (and they are) that's because the law dictates that they have to do this - there is no other option for them. I suspect that they don't like that they have to do it but what can they do about it ....nothing.

 

Unless they change the law / regulation / ministerial order that forces them to grant 1 year stays on every entrance then nothing will change.

 

This will affect such a small number of people that I doubt anyone in government will spend more than a few minutes on it - it's a non issue.

Complete head in the sand nonsense.

 

They also say members can apply for a 1 year extension of stay. Try doing that at the end of year 5!

 

It is ridiculous to believe that a government owned company has no influence over immigration, or that immigration cannot cancel any permit to stay.

 

TE members buy a 5 year membership which includes the option to live in the country for 5 years. 

 

I had hoped people would get 6 years out of the visa, and some will, but it is clear that TE/immigration will eventually close the loophole.

 

Anyone getting a letter from TE telling them their stay ends when the membership ends, that stays, is on very dodgy ground. And all the things you claim can’t be done, can, by law.

Edited September 23, 2019 by elviajero

[ubonjoe]

2 hours ago, elviajero said:

As I’ve said, if you lose your job or get divorced it is up to you to leave or change the reason for your stay; exactly the same principle applies to TE EX-members.

That is a bit like comparing apples to oranges.

You are writing about extensions of stay that are based upon certain reasons that end when that reason ends.

The one year entry from a PE visa or any other multiple entry visa it not tied to any conditions.

It takes a very valid reason for immigration to cancel a entry to the country from a valid visa and requires a decision made by high ranking officer to do it.

The regulations that cover entries from a valid visa is under a different ministerial order than extensions of stay.

 

44 minutes ago, elviajero said:

I had hoped people would get 6 years out of the visa, and some will, but it is clear that TE/immigration will eventually close the loophole.

How is it a loophole? It is within the written regulations that a entry before  a visa expires allows the permit to stay the visa allows.

[MsBom]

Complete head in the sand nonsense.
 
They also say members can apply for a 1 year extension of stay. Try doing that at the end of year 5!

Not trying to argue with anyone here. On personal experience, when we tried the 1 year extension at the end of the 5th year, the IOs said they were very sorry but to get 1 year extension it could only be done by leaving and re-entering the country before the visa expired, assuring us it was perfectly legal. So he did just that and got his 1 year extra.

Now, things can change fast and as I said before I'll go to immigration this week and will ask for clarification.

Will keep you posted



Sent from my iPhone using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[jacko45k]

13 hours ago, elviajero said:

It is naive to take the stance you are. Immigration can cancel the permit and will do if instructed by TE; especially now they’ve given written notice.

 

TE sell membership that allows someone to stay in the country for 5 years, not 6. Nothing in any of the marketing suggests otherwise. 

 

As I’ve said, if you lose your job or get divorced it is up to you to leave or change the reason for your stay; exactly the same principle applies to TE EX-members.

So Thai Elite can give orders to Thai Immigration? A bit like the tail wagging the dog! Do you have any examples of that happening?

If anything that makes the claims of Thai Elite unclear. A person arriving within the last year of his Elite Visa should have a Permission to Stay clearly stamped up to the Visa End. Any application for an Extension or Re-Entry at Immigration should not go beyond the Visa life, or perhaps 7 days to leave. But no, Thai Elite wants to make criminals of it's members and put them on immediate overstay! Not what I would call Elite treatment.

 

As to principle... if a person takes his money out of the bank, or does not renew his medical insurance, he should lose the remaining 5 years on a Non-Imm-OX, and be on overstay, going by the same principle.

 

It is untidy, unclear and puts Thai Elite in a bad light. 

Edited September 23, 2019 by jacko45k

[newatthis]

14 hours ago, elviajero said:

 

It is ridiculous to believe that a government owned company has no influence over immigration, or that immigration cannot cancel any permit to stay.

What influence? Even though TE take your money and approved your application, immigration can still refuse to issue the applicant with the 5 year visa at CW or the airport. It is then your problem to get a refund from TE.

[jackdd]

17 hours ago, elviajero said:

TE sell membership that allows someone to stay in the country for 5 years, not 6. Nothing in any of the marketing suggests otherwise. 

Then obviously the marketing of TE was missleading, that's nothing special in Thailand, we see this every day.

 

In reality there are two completely different entities involved:

- A state owned company called Thailand Privilege Card (TPC) is selling membership cards, valid for 5 years or whatever they choose.

- Immigration has orders to issue somebody who has a valid TPC with a 5 years visa and stamp this person in for a year upon entering Thailand, or give them an extension.

And these are the only facts regarding the visa, everything else is just marketing talk. TE has zero power over the issuance of visas by the mfa or immigration, all they do is sell people a membership.

 

The recent notification by TE looks like they are not happy that immigration is following the orders given to immigration by the minister of interior.

But instead of contacting the relevant authorities to maybe get the rules changed to their liking, they instead decide to lie to and blackmail their ex-members. Which company in their right mind would do this, especially one catering to "elite clientele"?

Edited September 24, 2019 by jackdd

[JohnnyBKK]

Thailand elite has no authority to say anything, if the IO stamped 1 yr you can stay up until the last day of that stamp. What Thailand elite says is irrevelant. They are just trying to make a sale. What they sold is a 5 yr sticker allowing you to enter Thailand and get 1 yr stamps each time. That's it. It's not a loophole, they just never considered thailand elite customers to be cheap and to use the program at 100%.

[ukrules]

1 hour ago, JohnnyBKK said:

Thailand elite has no authority to say anything, if the IO stamped 1 yr you can stay up until the last day of that stamp. What Thailand elite says is irrevelant. They are just trying to make a sale. What they sold is a 5 yr sticker allowing you to enter Thailand and get 1 yr stamps each time. That's it. It's not a loophole, they just never considered thailand elite customers to be cheap and to use the program at 100%.

Exactly, hence this :

[Captain Monday]

Let in again today on my reentry permit.

No delay, no questions.

[newatthis]

13 hours ago, Captain Monday said:

Let in again today on my reentry permit.

No delay, no questions.

Thank you for the info. All the best.

[ukrules]

On 8/29/2019 at 2:17 PM, elviajero said:

 

If a condition of having the visa is valid membership then immigration should only be stamping someone in for the remainder of the 5 years. But as it stands they are giving a full 1 year, which IMO is valid (dependent on the TE membership small print) unless cancelled by immigration.

Something occurred to me about this recently.

 

I'd bet that all the visas stickers look the same and are identical regardless of whether you have a 5, 10 or 20 year membership and we know they only issue 5 year visas to all members.

 

There will be no way for an immigration officer to know if your membership might be expiring shortly or if it's nearly time for you to head down to immigration and collect your next 5 year visa which you're due because you have a longer membership period.

 

[krey]

I told my friend who is also on the Thai Elite about how the 6th year was kind of up in the air if it is legit or not.  He actually went down to the offices and talked to the rep there and she said that you can stay the 6th year to him and then he came back to me and said See you can do it?  I asked him for the reps contact information so I could email her and ask her the same question.  She came back with the No you cannot stay - Overstay this was two days after she just told another member he could stay.  She then copied and pasted the same email I have seen 3 or 4 times now, as seen below.  Seems this is their standard response email to the question now.  Next week I have an opponent with a Thai Visa Company going to see if I can get to the bottom of it , I only want to stay 3 or 4 more months and am hoping to avoid border hoping during those times but not confident on the 6th year right now  Here is the email below

 

Thailand Elite visa will automatically expire no later than the expiry date of your membership. The Government Relations Department usually sends the list of the member whose membership has expired to the immigration office.

 

Having the entry stamp that is over your membership expiration. We are afraid that you will be considered as 'overstay' in the immigration record after we send the abovementioned official letter to them. There is very little chance that immigration considers this as their mistake, but they will most likely consider this as your false.

Similar cases like this have happened before. The most recent one was last month. One of our renewed members got the arrival stamp from Suvarnabhumi Airport, but he had an appointment to affix the new visa at Chaeng Wattana Immigration. On the appointment date, the immigration officer checked the record and found that this member had overstayed since his membership expired. Not only he had to pay for the overstay, but he also could not affix Thailand Elite Visa due to overstaying record. So he had to leave the country and affix a new Elite visa upon arrival. We tried to negotiate with the immigration but they refused and the reason they gave us was that member should know well about his membership expiry date (which is the end of the Thailand Elite Visa).

 

We would like to clarify because we do not want you to have any problem which might be caused you overstay or accidentally if over 90 days, you will be banned by immigration for 1 year.

 

Should you have any question, please do not hesitate to contact us any time.

Edited November 21, 2019 by krey

[ukrules]

13 hours ago, krey said:

 

Thailand Elite visa will automatically expire no later than the expiry date of your membership. The Government Relations Department usually sends the list of the member whose membership has expired to the immigration office.

 

Having the entry stamp that is over your membership expiration. We are afraid that you will be considered as 'overstay' in the immigration record after we send the abovementioned official letter to them. There is very little chance that immigration considers this as their mistake, but they will most likely consider this as your false.

Similar cases like this have happened before. The most recent one was last month. One of our renewed members got the arrival stamp from Suvarnabhumi Airport, but he had an appointment to affix the new visa at Chaeng Wattana Immigration. On the appointment date, the immigration officer checked the record and found that this member had overstayed since his membership expired. Not only he had to pay for the overstay, but he also could not affix Thailand Elite Visa due to overstaying record. So he had to leave the country and affix a new Elite visa upon arrival. We tried to negotiate with the immigration but they refused and the reason they gave us was that member should know well about his membership expiry date (which is the end of the Thailand Elite Visa).

 

We would like to clarify because we do not want you to have any problem which might be caused you overstay or accidentally if over 90 days, you will be banned by immigration for 1 year.

 

Should you have any question, please do not hesitate to contact us any time.

Thailand Elite - Why is this happening? I read the above explaination and it doesn't add up.

 

There is a rogue senior immigration officer working at Chaeng Wattana who is doing this. They don't do it at the airport - this I know 100% based on personal experience.

 

Someone is lying here. I'm not sure who it is, it's either TE or the very high ranking senior immigration officer at Chaeng Wattana whic you implicate in his crimes.

 

I know this is making your life hard. Please private message me the immigration officers full name, rank and position and badge number and I will take it from here.

 

I know 100% that this man is breaking the computer crimes law if he is doing this and I want to see him arrested for his crimes.

 

I want to put a stop to this absolute mother<deleted>ing <deleted> xenophobic treatment of people who have paid very good money for this visa.

 

To the immigration officer who's doing this - I'm looking for you and I will eventually find who you are no matter what it takes, expect criminal charges

 

Edited November 21, 2019 by ukrules

[ukrules]

On 11/4/2019 at 8:14 PM, Captain Monday said:

Let in again today on my reentry permit.

No delay, no questions.

Everything they say is a lie. Confirmed 100%

[ukrules]

Thailand Elite - This will not go away. You fix this problem of the lies or it will start appearing in news papers.

Edited November 21, 2019 by ukrules

[krey]

On 11/22/2019 at 4:52 AM, ukrules said:

Thailand Elite - This will not go away. You fix this problem of the lies or it will start appearing in news papers.

I have no idea who Thai Elite is getting the information from at immigration if they are at all.  I just know that the three people I have talked to via Email (three different Thai Elite Reps) have all sent this same email , one of them was a manager as I asked to speak to someone higher up the chain at the time.   I also emailed the rep back that sent me the last email asking her why she told my friend he could stay on his 6th year and I could not, no answer of course as of yet (4 days).

 

I got an meeting with a Thai Visa agency on Nov 26th, will update what they have to say.

 

I was curious can one set up a meeting with someone at immigration directly? like at Chiang Mai Immigration so I can hear it from an actual person at immigration and not through third parties such as the agencies or Thai Elite?   I would be curious on that.

[elviajero]

On 11/21/2019 at 9:52 PM, ukrules said:

Thailand Elite - This will not go away. You fix this problem of the lies or it will start appearing in news papers.

Sorry, but you've lost the plot on this. TE are selling a 5 year membership and nowhere do they, or have they, advertise/d tat the visa can be used for 6 years. If they decide to stop this 6th year there is nothing stopping them with immigrations support, which they will undoubtedly get.

 

Right from the start this 6th year was always up in the air. I bet many PE visa holders haven't got a clue they can 'potentially' get 6 years. It's only those switched on to the visa system, through forums like this, that know about this 'loophole'.

Edited November 23, 2019 by elviajero

[elviajero]

On 9/24/2019 at 2:06 PM, JohnnyBKK said:

Thailand elite has no authority to say anything, if the IO stamped 1 yr you can stay up until the last day of that stamp. What Thailand elite says is irrevelant. They are just trying to make a sale. What they sold is a 5 yr sticker allowing you to enter Thailand and get 1 yr stamps each time. That's it. It's not a loophole, they just never considered thailand elite customers to be cheap and to use the program at 100%.

No they didn't. They sold a 5 year membership to the Thailand Elite Membership Scheme. One of the benefits being a visa. Yes the visa holder is given 1 year every time they enter, but ALL benefits are for members only. Make the most of the biggest 'loophole' in the visa system while it's open. Kicking up a fuss is only going to get it closed down quicker.

[jackdd]

31 minutes ago, elviajero said:

If they decide to stop this 6th year there is nothing stopping them with immigrations support, which they will undoubtedly get.

The Elite visa rules were set by the minister of interior, so if they want to change them they need to contact the minister of interior.

But when the ministry of interior wrote the rules they might have done this on purpose, so that it's in accordance with every other multiple entry visa, thus they might be reluctant to change them.

 

20 minutes ago, elviajero said:

Make the most of the biggest 'loophole' in the visa system while it's open.

I wouldn't call it a loophole. That multiple entry visas in Thailand can be used in this way is probably been so forever, so they have known this beforehand and it was most likely not done accidentally.

Actually the Elite visa would be the smallest of all "lopholes".

An OA visa should be only for one year, but can be used for two, 100% more than the the supposed duration.

METV (not taking an extension into account) 8 instead of 6 months, 33% more.

Multiple entry non-immigrant 25%.

Elite visa a mere 20%.

Edited November 23, 2019 by jackdd

[MeePeeMai]

On 11/22/2019 at 4:42 AM, ukrules said:

"On the appointment date, the immigration officer checked the record and found that this member had overstayed since his membership expired. Not only he had to pay for the overstay, but he also could not affix Thailand Elite Visa due to overstaying record. So he had to leave the country and affix a new Elite visa upon arrival."

 

This is a bit strange. 

 

The rules are that one cannot get an Elite Visa if he/she has any record of overstay (even just one day from what I understand) and they admit that by saying "but he also could not affix Thailand Elite Visa due to overstaying record"... then they contradict themselves by saying "So he had to leave the country and affix a new Elite visa upon arrival."

 

This does not make sense.  If he had an overstay record then why was he allowed to leave and re-enter and then get a new Elite Visa sticker?

 

Oxymoron?

[krey]

5 minutes ago, MeePeeMai said:

 

This is a bit strange. 

 

The rules are that one cannot get an Elite Visa if he/she has any record of overstay (even just one day from what I understand) and they admit that by saying "but he also could not affix Thailand Elite Visa due to overstaying record"... then they contradict themselves by saying "So he had to leave the country and affix a new Elite visa upon arrival."

 

This does not make sense.  If he had an overstay record then why was he allowed to leave and re-enter and then get a new Elite Visa sticker?

 

Oxymoron?

yeah I heard about this as well.  My friend had a 3 day overstay once on record.  Thai Elite refused to let him get a Elite Visa with that 3 day overstay on his record.

 

As a side note, when I got my Thai Elite visa 5 years ago, one of the selling features of the agent at the time I was talking to was I could stay into the 6th year (of course with no elite benefits), though nothing was every put on paper saying so, was just like everyone is saying, you can leave before it expires and get the stamp.